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Wednesday, August 10, 2005

On interesting pairing

In about two hours, at 10AM EST, NPR's On Point radio program is going to spend an hour on Intelligent Design creationism. It's going to have two guests: George Gilder and Richard Dawkins.

I have no idea why the media finds it necessary to pair a smart guy like Dawkins with a flaming moron like Gilder, but there it is. Balance. Knowledge vs. ignorance. Competence vs. incompetence. Signal vs. noise. Half the program will be garbage, while the other half will be a guy incinerating garbage.


First half hour: What? Gilder is arguing that the impossibility of information flowing back from proteins to DNA (Crick's "Central Dogma") and the falsity of the inheritance of acquired characters is evidence against evolution? That's like claiming that because drawing on a computer screen doesn't change the program code, it means that computer programs can't be changed. This whole line of argument about information theory is just obscurantist squinking: information theory does not damage evolutionary theory.

Also, that proteins are the expression of the phenotype and that experience does not change DNA ignores the key insight of Darwin, that evolution is a process that operates on populations, not individuals. The neo-Darwinian synthesis embraced the Weismann barrier; it simply is not a problem.

And good grief, Gilder resurrects the Hitler zombie, trying to discredit evolution because some old supporters also favored Hitler!

Oh, man. He's ending his time by babbling about human intelligence "projecting itself into the universe" and Kurzweil's Singularity. What a kook.

One funny bit: his economic failures were pointed out, and Gilder started muttering about over-regulation being at fault.


Ashbrook recapped the last half hour by calling Gilder a "prominent American thinker". I am so embarrassed.

Dawkins started by pointing out the obvious errors in Gilders thesis: the Central Dogma does not conflict with evolution, information theory is not against us. Then he cut through the BS and and explained that all the talk about "information theory" is just a smokescreen for the old creationist argument that complexity can't evolve, and that increased information can't appear out of nowhere. There's a failure of the imagination there, because they then turn around and invoke an even more complex designer to explain biological complexity—it's an empty solution. Also, any incompleteness of evolution does not justify accepting an alternative 'theory' that explains nothing at all.

When asked about a solution, he recommends education, education, education—I agree, obviously.

Ashbrook brings up atheism, of course. Ho-hum. Dawkins turns that right around and hammers on the stupidity of believing the entire universe was created in the middle stone age.

One caller exemplifies the ignorant viewpoint of creationists, and asks the uninformed question, "how can you get something as complex as a person when even simple things need to be designed?" He tells him to go read a book. Good for him. He also gives a very brief summary of evolutionary history.

And to counter the question of how to reconcile evolution with the religious, he recommends Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God(amzn/b&n/abe/pwll).


Aaargh! They bring on Michael Ruse after Dawkins!

Fortunately, he's mostly sensible today. He does his usual atheist bashing (we aren't supposed to say that religion is silly, apparently—atheists are acceptable as long as they keep very, very quiet), but at least he clearly explained that ID is nothing but creationism lite. Also fortunately, he wasn't on for long.

Look, guy, the way to get the Christian middle to accept evolution is NOT to pretend that atheists don't exist; they're going to have to reconcile themselves to the fact that atheists are thick on the ground in the sciences someday, and lying to them now won't help.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2710/aETc5rhk/

Comments:
#34681: notheory — 08/10  at  09:03 AM
bleh. i need to proofread better. I meant to say that he doesn't pay attention to the fact that people will hear what they want to hear, rather than what he means. And he doesn't take the time to deal with that possibility. And he's right, that's bullshit PR work. But, as i pointed out in another thread, science is a human endeavor, and as such is subject to the complications of human sociology.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34682: notheory — 08/10  at  09:14 AM
Two things: evolutionary science has depended upon a vast sea of thinkers an theories beyond Darwin. We use the term Darwinist to pay homage to Darwin, other people view this as meaning that it's rooted solely upon what Darwin said (as a result people look up what Darwin said and go "LOOK HE'S WRONG, HERE HERE AND HERE!" and we have to go "yeah, we know, we've moved on, try and keep up thanks"). Next, Darwin, sadly, is tied in w/ all the messy stuff that happened during the end of his life and after his death. Eugenics, Social Darwinism, etc. Regardless of how Darwin felt about those subjects, his name is tied to the arguments that they made claiming that it was the logical extention of his work. Well it wasn't. We either have to fight a war to win back Darwin, or we have to abandon the usage of his name.

IMO, we can't muster a two front war, rehabilitating Darwin and trying to take down literal biblical creationists. Too much mess in the mix.

Again, this isn't a problem w/ science, this is a problem w/ PR and sociology.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34683: — 08/10  at  09:18 AM
First of all, my thanks go out to PZ Myers. I've been lurking for a week or so, and going through the archives; your lucid writing is some of the best I've seen in a lifetime (admittedly only a couple decades' worth) of reading layman's science literature. I add my request to the flood of others here: write a book!

I just finished listening to the On Point piece, and I have only this to add to your recap on the front page: Gilder sounds exactly like I thought he would after reading his comments here. He rambles, says "um" a lot, plugs his books, and in every other sentence reveals his complete lack of current (or even historical) scientific knowledge. Dawkins, on the other hand, came across as clear and incisive--he knew exactly what points he wanted to address, got there quickly, and explained what he meant in understandable language.

I wish more comparisons of ID "theorists" and actual scientists went like that.

I'm now going to get back to work, deliciously imagining Richard Dawkins debating George W. Bush.



#34685: notheory — 08/10  at  09:29 AM
Yeah, thank PZ from me as well. I've been lurking for a while longer, but i haven't taken to posting until this week.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34687: — 08/10  at  10:03 AM
notheory: OK, thanks. I'm not in America so I'm not really hip to the subtleties. I see what you mean. But boy, that's sad.



#34688: — 08/10  at  10:12 AM
The latest (Sept 2005?) issue of Discover magazine has a profile on Dawkins entitled "Darwin's Rottweiler". The article takes the unfortunate stance that Dawkins should softpeddle the atheism and stop asking tough question in order not to alienate theistic allies in the battle against creationism.



#34689: Niket — 08/10  at  10:20 AM
Darn, their webpage said that the program begins at 11. So I just caught Dawkins as he was finishing. I can understand that you are upset (and understandably so) about Ruse. But I think, he did a good job on air. Theism/atheism isn't what they were debating, they were debating what ought to be taught in a science class.

If a religious evolutionist feels that a out-of-the-closet-athiest evolutionist must give credit to religious ideas too (in the realm they are appropriate, not in science), why is he wrong in expressing it? Both the atheist and the theist have rights to disagree on religious issues, even while debating how to conduct a scientific exercise. If you express disagreement and argue on points, that is fine; but is there a point in getting down to expressions of frustration and worse... especially when you mostly agree.



#34690: — 08/10  at  10:27 AM
Sometimes I get the impression that ID creationist apologists think "I got religion" is some kind of killer argument, the trump card to pull out when they are losing a debate badly.

Cambrian "explosion" doesn't support ID? "We need room for other truths in schools; don't listen to atheists."

No research being done by ID advocates? "Other views should be welcomed in classrooms [host looks dubious] -- otherwise it's discrimination against religion!"

Yes, we need room for discussion in classrooms -- that's not a justification to violate the separation of church and state. No, it's not discrimination against religion to insist religionists play by science rules when they come to the science game, same as we don't insist that Christians get a free base when they have to bat against Sandy Koufax. If they play baseball, they have to play by baseball rules.

There is no royal road to geometry.

There is no religious road to understanding science.

Those are the facts. Get over it.



#34691: — 08/10  at  10:29 AM
Among other problems, evolution doesn't have a couple of highly-paid PR groups out flacking for it.

PZ, does your college even list you as an expert against intelligent design in the media catalogue given out to reporters?

Does your college even have such a media catalogue?

See what I'm saying?

(I hope this isn't duplicate. I got an error message, and a later message I posted has now shown up . . .)



#34692: — 08/10  at  10:34 AM
RAVEN--

That's so funny that you should say that about calculus. i had a similar an sudden thought some time ago. unfortunately i posted it in a thread where it didn't really make much sense... but if you see this, go check it out. i fear derailing this thread and i tried to send you an email but was unable to find one on your blog:

http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/how_to_make_a_vulva/#c21927



's avatar #34693: Raven — 08/10  at  10:59 AM
Nathan, I think what you said in your earlier comment makes a lot of sense, poetically as well. Although I don't remember specifically, it is very possible that I saw your comment at the time, and originally got the idea from that, where it's been fermenting in my subconscious for a while--the analogy certainly resonates strongly with me, and I think I was reading Pharyngula back in April.

But you certainly made the point first about pre-calculus thinking in ID-ers, and better than I did. No Newton and Leibniz here, or Darwin and Wallace either smile.

(I'll put up an email address at my blog soon; just haven't yet decided which ones are personal and which are professional.)



#34697: — 08/10  at  12:43 PM
OT quote of the day

"If you have the Seminole Tribe and Gov. Bush on your side, how can you go wrong?" Florida State University Vice President Lee Hinkle said Wednesday.



Trackback: Dawkins vs. Gilder Tracked on: Nomadic Thoughts (67.138.240.12) at 2005 08 10 13:48:28
I was surprised to hear that the last guest on the program was Michael Ruse, who I just blogged about in my previous post. I haven't listened to his segment yet but as always, Pharyngula has a definitive review of the entire program along his reaction.



#34742: Joe Shelby — 08/10  at  03:28 PM
I got a little annoyed at your implications that the "Christian Middle" (such as it is, I presume, being those members of churches not obviously of the staunch-right approaches of Robertson and Fallwell, and also not those of extremely permissive churches like the Universal Unitarians) doesn't accept evolution.

I think they do, very well in fact. Consider the Catechism of Creation from the American Episcopal Church (my own church, in fact): http://www.episcopalchurch.org/science.htm .

What religious moderates don't do, and this is the curse of moderates in all aspects of politics including religion, is act to protect their freedom to have that choice. In other words, out of the tolerance necessary in society to prevent every religious disagreement from turning into a 17th century bloodbath, they tend not to want to get involved in trying to correct what might be perceived as mistakes of other religions.

As such, when one side goes spouting off with a biblical literalist point of view, the moderates just go "that's nice, dear" and leave it alone. This is fine in matters solely connected with religion such as theology and apologetics.

It is, however, a travesty in matters where the "other" religion interferes in the actions of the state and the education of the moderates' children. Many simply don't realize just how risky it is, how much control over the country the religious-right will be able to assert once they have control over the educational system.

As I said, this is a curse of many in the middle. One editorialist commented, the #1 story you will never read in the news would begin with "A riot broke out today as moderates took to the streets demanding...".



#34743: — 08/10  at  03:31 PM
PZ,

Religion is not silly.

It is stupid and dangerous. Big difference.



#34753: — 08/10  at  04:06 PM
Bess: Why only "Darwinists" then? Why no "Newtonists" or "Einsteinists"? I think it is inappropriate - certainly uncommon - to label well-established scientific knowledge as "-isms"; I think the IDiots prefer to label biology as such in order to suggest that evolution is some kind of ideology!



#34754: — 08/10  at  04:13 PM
I meant to send you a link to Chris Lydon's show on this topic. Chris hosted WBUR's "The Connection" from its inception until 2001. That show used to be in the 10AM slot until it was cancelled a couple of weeks ago.

Chris is my favorite interviewer, and his show is great (check out the connection pre 2/15/01), but this was a very unsatisfying show. He did not endorse ID in any way, and he recognized that it's basically creationism in a cheap tuxedo, but I don't think that he was trying to answer the question of whether ID is valid. I think he was trying to figure out why people feel so strongly about this, that is why religious people feel that their religion is threatened. "Look," he seemed to be saying "there are smart theists who are real scientists who accept evolution. Why do you feel compelled to fight this?"

They linked to you. The show on Intelligent Design is available as an mp3 download. They also have an RSS feed for podcasts.

They're doing a series on the politics of climate change. Check it out.



#34779: notheory — 08/10  at  05:15 PM
Bleh. I'm so disgusted with WBUR in general. They're such sensationalist idiots. The radio spot they were running for the Gilder/Dawkins show ends with "A discussion so dangerous that some people don't even want it talked about!" (paraphrase)

First, this statement is ridiculous on its face. We don't want to discuss it because there aren't any genuine points of disagreement. All the areas where IDCers disagree are disingenuous or simple denial of fact.

Second, WBUR is always like this. They run actual product ads. They run on sensation and pigeon-holing, unlike all the other NPR stations i've ever listened to. :mad: Sorry, this rant has been building for 2 months.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34823: — 08/10  at  08:13 PM
notheory, radioopensource is on WGBH. I agree that WBUR is annoying. Jane Christo built an empire out of news and information. She was great for a while, but then her hubris overwhelmed her. And it is now very tabloidy.



#34825: notheory — 08/10  at  08:26 PM
Yeah i've listened to OpenSource a couple times. They're less irritating, but still not what i'm used to. Although they do play some wonderful jazz programming :D

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34893: Ricardo Azevedo — 08/11  at  07:12 AM
Gilder was even worse than I thought. (I confess I wasn't masochistic enough to finish reading his hideous posts here.) Modern evolutionary theory is based on Lamarck and Lysenko? Information theory and the central dogma of molecular biology contradict evolution? We will be able to project our intelligence on the Universe? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Gilder wouldn't get a passing grade in my Evolutionary Biology class. Not because I disagree with him, but because he is talking complete complete nonsense. Where do they find these people? I would love to see a log of Dawkins' thoughts while he listened to that moron...



#34951: jay denari — 08/11  at  12:40 PM
Not gonna happen. Ever talk to a reporter? There are exceptions, but on the whole they're not the brightest bulbs on the tree to begin with, and a J-school "education" does less than nothing to help.

As a print journalist myself who is proud of being scientifically literate, I think that statement is too general. The big problem is not reporters in general, but TV "news" personalities, who are usually NOT actually journalists. They're talking heads who read whatever they're given without question and are hired for their looks not their brains. That's one major reason why I typically ignore TV news.

Sure, we as a profession aren't perfect, but most of us try to get the facts right, and many of us DO have wide-ranging interests beyond writing that we try to bring into our reporting whenever we can. For some of us, that includes real science. I do, however, wish there were more genuine science columnists in mainstream papers and more editors who were willing to let reporters explore scientific (and other) issues in some depth without needing a controversy or a "news hook" to do it.



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