Pharyngula

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Thursday, November 17, 2005

Open Thread

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This is not going to become the all-Scott-Adams blog, and this will be my last post on the subject, but he has put up another comment—a request that people write in and show specifically where he was wrong. Of course, Adams moderates his comments, and is going to use this as an excuse to whine editorially. For instance, there's one comment there that says that "Scott claims that the Darwinism/ID debate is scientific", and that ID doesn't meet the standards of science; Adams says he didn't say that and dismisses it. But of course, what Adams did do was assume parity of the scientific and creationist arguments, and present the ID arguments against evolution as if they had some legitimacy. You can tell that he's just going to hide behind his excuse of "I'm a humorist just reporting what some people have said," and that thread is going to go nowhere.

So, instead, I'll take advantage of the open thread mechanism here and invite you all to put your rebuttals here. Remember, take specific things Adams has said and explain why they are wrong.

It is really silly and hypocritical for Adams to be doing that. My original comment on this business was a list of specific things Adams got wrong with explanations for how they were wrong, and he just ran away and said he didn't say any of it. Expect much hairsplitting from him.

Anyway, here's the short list of things I said in that first post. Add some more!

  • Adams claims the Designists only differ from us in answering the question of how change occurred. I pointed out that they don't try to answer the "how" question, and asked him to list some specific hypotheses.
  • Adams made a vague statement that "Darwinism" was full of flaws; it sounded much like the usual Discovery Institute claims, most of which are cataloged in Wells' Icons of Evolution. I linked to a refutation of the book.
  • Adams made a specific claim that all hominid fossils would fit in a small box. I gave a link and a quote from a source that shows that is wrong, and also mentioned that it was irrelevant—ID creationists argue against evolution of properties common to all chordates or all eukaryotes.
  • Adams made claims about biologists that are completely wrong. He says that "90%+" of all scientists think Darwin got it right; I pointed out that this is not the case at all, we are well aware of parts that he got wrong, and this is why we object to the silly business of calling us "Darwinists".
  • Adams says that it is a "not-so-kooky argument" that scientists are so specialized that they don't understand the big picture, that all scientists are thinking their own fields lack evidence for evolution, and we're all cluelessly assuming the other guy has the data. This is not true at all for most of us. He seems to reject the arguments of scientists, though, because they are scientists. Apparently, cartoonists are supposed to be better able to understand what scientists know than scientists themselves.

(Oh, and since this is an open thread, feel free to say anything else you want, too. I agree that Adams is rather boring, and I'm sorry that recent server problems have limited what I can post.)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3371/HRlUkRDA/

Comments:
#49294: — 11/17  at  09:21 AM
He specifically stated in his last email that reviewing TalkOrigins is what started his tirade. He feels that TO is poorly done, and that they misrepresent the ID people, and attack the misrepresentation. There's also a comment that by default implies the TO/science side do not argue rationally.

Talk.Origins has many debates on their site where the creationists have responded to their evolutionary critics, and while I'm sure one can find a snarky response or two to Ed Conrad's eternal claim about man being as old as coal, there are others like as the matter of those polonium "halos" where creationists are given a very fair opportunity to respond. I suspect Scott Adams may be cherry-picking from the vast material on Talk.Origins in an attempt to rationalize the situation he's now found himself in with PZ.



#49295: — 11/17  at  09:24 AM
Here's what I sent him. We'll see if he puts it up:

Scott, you wrote, "And since I don’t have any relevant scientific knowledge myself, nor direct access to the data, everything I know has to come from non-credible types." This is spectacularly false on many levels. First, evolutionary theory predicts that protein and DNA sequences must fit into nested hierarchies. You have direct access to all of those sequences, as well as the tools to analyze them and test this prediction, at pubmed.gov. Second, most scientific journals provide free access to papers >6 months old, some scientific journals are free to begin with (plos.org), and you make enough money to buy subscriptions anyway. Finally, I'm a cell biologist and geneticist, not an evolutionary biologist, in case you try to claim that I have some financial interest in supporting evolutionary theory.



's avatar #49296: PZ Myers — 11/17  at  09:30 AM
So he thinks that the gang at TO "misrepresent the ID people, and attack the misrepresentation", but he won't be specific about how? Typical -- he demands very specific complaints in his latest or he won't post them, but won't deliver the same.

I'd really like to know where on TO he found the argument that ID is false, because the earth is more than 10,000 years old.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#49297: — 11/17  at  09:31 AM
Dark Matter, speakin' of blurring the line between church and theater, a couple of months back our local, yokel NBC affiliate ran a story how the production company for the latest Left Behind "movie" was distributing it directly to churches. One of our local, yokel churches fell for this crap. They prepared for 300 butts in the seats. They got 50.



#49298: Rick @ shrimp and grits — 11/17  at  09:49 AM

Keith Burgess Jackson has slammed a rather well respected philosopher of biology for not having any degrees in biology and claiming that we shouldn't listen to her because of that.

What do you think?


Depends. Does the person being slammed have a reasonable knowledge of what she's talking about or not? Are the arguments the person makes good?

(The reason Scott Adams is getting piled on is not that he's a cartoonist. It's that he's a cartoonist who claims that he is essentially a better authority than biologists on biology specifically because he is ignorant of the subject. And he's presenting bad arguments. And he's unwilling to listen to what people with knowledge of b iology have to say. Et cetera.)



#49299: — 11/17  at  09:52 AM
A couple of people have already mentioned this, but Adams does not come into this "debate" as the objective, impartial observer he tries to portray himself as.

I wasn't looking for anything negative about Adams, but in browsing a site about kooks and crackpots last night, I happened on an entry about Mr. Adams

http://www.insolitology.com/rloddities/dilbert.htm

I'll only post one snippet from the page:
" It’s when we turned to page 225, the beginning of chapter 14, that we get a shock so nasty that we might think it’s just another joke (it took me a long time to convince myself) – there, in a black outlined box, is prediction 63: The Theory of Evolution will be scientifically debunked in your lifetime."

The quote is apparently from his 1997 book, The Dilbert Future. The page I pasted goes on about several other beliefs Adams reportedly holds. I say "reportedly" because no way in hell am I ever gonna actually read Dilbert again, since I've found it sophomoric and unfunny for many years. So yeah, I'm hardly unbiased about Adams myself.



#49300: — 11/17  at  09:57 AM
Scott, you wrote, "And since I don’t have any relevant scientific knowledge myself, nor direct access to the data, everything I know has to come from non-credible types." This is spectacularly false on many levels. First, evolutionary theory predicts that protein and DNA sequences must fit into nested hierarchies. You have direct access to all of those sequences, as well as the tools to analyze them and test this prediction, at pubmed.gov. Second, most scientific journals provide free access to papers >6 months old, some scientific journals are free to begin with (plos.org), and you make enough money to buy subscriptions anyway. Finally, I'm a cell biologist and geneticist, not an evolutionary biologist, in case you try to claim that I have some financial interest in supporting evolutionary theory.



#49301: — 11/17  at  09:58 AM
Scott suggests he finds the musings about evolution of someone who never previously gave much thought to ID or evolution more credible than the assertions of fact from a PhD in microbiology. That tells you all you need to know about how credible Scott is.



#49303: John Emerson — 11/17  at  10:28 AM
10:00 CST, one comment total posted by Scott. I posted there at least a couple of hours ago.



#49304: — 11/17  at  10:34 AM
Truly, seriously considering the expansionism hypothesis for gravity and not being able to work out why it's hideously flawed is pretty embarrassing. I'd be honestly ashamed to be in Adams' position.

*points and laughs*

It works for one observation in the entire universe, which is that things close to the Earth accelerate towards it at 9.81 m/s^2.

After that, it falls utterly apart like the junk it is.

On the other hand, that didn't stop The Final Theory from selling, a book that actually promotes this point of view and is advertised as "The Da Vinci Code of Science".

*shakes head in despair*



#49309: — 11/17  at  11:02 AM
Isn't the gravitational force exterted by an object proportional to its mass not its size (at least in Newtonian mechanics)?



's avatar #49310: — 11/17  at  01:00 PM
I am wasting incredible amount of working time trying to post a comment, as sugggested by PZ, that "incredibly intelligent" blogger mentioned by Scott. PZ, do something with or to your satanic blog machine! Your ominous mumbling is clearly ineffective. It justifies Scott's argument that PZ is not credible. Look! even his own hardware does not believes him.

Mr Scott says: "My point is that every argument I have heard in favor of Darwin’s version of evolution or in favor of Intelligent Design all come from people who have the same credibility problem wonderfully demonstrated by PZ."

His point is crystal clear: He is an outsider, a certified incompetent, liberated from any responsability. He need not to think or to say anything. He doesn't have to refute anything nor defend any position. His method is an ancient but effective rethorical trick, the argument ad hominem. He simply disqualifies the other person.

How he does it? Easy. PZ is so naïve. For one, he writes that he talks to machines. No, Scott does not mention that, he missed it. But he says PZ maliciously misstated what he meant, ergo, PZ has a problem, a terrible credibility problem. Since according to Scott he said nothing, somehow it escapes me how the "incredibly intelligent" PZ succeeds in maliciously misunderstanding and misrepresenting him. Clearly, how could anybody believe anything said by PZ?

I feel quantifying the concept of "credibility" would help, so we could test if PZ has it or not, and in what measure. Luckily, others have already written volumes on credibility, so I dont have to waste time in technicalities. PZ comes out as is incredibly credible. In a scale from 0 (like that sick author of the Book of Apocalipsis) to 100 (a tzaddik from Hassidic legends), he is found as approaching saintitude.

Given that happily I am free of PZ's intellectual integrity limitations, I could also apply Scott's method. As a cartoonist, does Scott feel intellectually qualified to discern between a bona fide academic evolutionary biologist and an experimented fundamentalist preacher? If he feels so, is he? The cartoonist's art is to express ideas in the simplest of the ways, so that slow fifth graders can understand it. Army manuals and airline emergency procedures are written at that level, illustrated with caricaturized figures to enable semi-morons to shoot and to put on the oxygen mask that falls into their hands. To communicate effectively at the semi-moronic level, one has to be able to think or be like one. SA does it well, and this is the reason that he finds great difficulty to discern between a scientist and a preacher. Not to speak of deciding between a body of evidence accumulated by thousands of highly trained specialists, and a fantasy world based on ancient sacred books written in a language long forgotten.

But probably Scott knows how to evaluate credibility. If he has to decide which doctor to consult, he knows which one is credible. He has to choose a fund manager, he knows who is a crook and who is honest. He has no problems to decide the credibility of CNN vs Al Jazeera. Robertson vs the Pope. Batman vs Spiderman. The New York Times vs The Onion.

Scott, if he is like most of us, relies on the opinions of people he knows to be reliable. If so, Scott, rest assured, jaimito says that PZ's credibility rating is maximal, and emphatically more so in the field of evolutionary biology. Quod erat demostrandum.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#49312: — 11/17  at  01:14 PM
PZ, do something with or to your satanic blog machine! Your ominous mumbling is clearly ineffective.


Hehe, he's working on it... I think we're stuck with the occasional bout of wonkiness until the whole new server thing is completed, which of course takes time.

An unrelated bit of silliness--it's kinda unfair snark, but I just can't not share this observation. Anyone notice that Adams looks a bit like Dembski?

Look:
http://www.designinference.com/



#49315: Adam Ierymenko — 11/17  at  01:18 PM
http://www.greythumb.org/blog

(Look at the first entry... it wouldn't let me post it due to the keyword!)

Just something I figured the "information cannot be created" crowd would enjoy.



#49318: John Emerson — 11/17  at  01:20 PM
Why don't we spread the rumor that one of Adams' horde of deranged cubicle slaves hacked Pharyngula and shut it down? Then he can call us paranoids too.



#49319: — 11/17  at  01:21 PM
Oh, jeez. Sorry about the picture. I know the site already has bandwidth issues. I dunno how/why it did that... :(



#49320: — 11/17  at  01:30 PM
Why am I not surprised about his reply to the 10.000 year claim:

From dilbertlog:


"For example, Darwinists often argue that Intelligent Design can’t be true because we know the earth is over 10,000 years old."

Name one.

[Here I was referring to personal conversations, not famous Darwinists. I can name three off the top of my head, but you wouldn't know them. And I've received that argument by e-mail about a hundred times. I'm also reading the Dover trial transcripts where the lawyer opposed to ID in schools is painting the ID experts as creationists to make his case. -- Scott]


His defenses are:

"The lurkers agree with me", "someone said so in an email" or - this is the modern variation of the age old "the voices in my head told me so"

Secondly he moves the goalposts. His claim was about 10.000 years, and then he talks about the lawyer in the Dover trial painting the IDists ad creationists - as if being a creationist means you think the earth is about 10.000 years old!

/Soren



#49322: Murphy — 11/17  at  01:32 PM
Geez -- now you guys are complaining that he isn't devoting his entire workday to answering your complaints. He's actually doing a heck of a lot more to answer people than PZ, who refuses to answer the argument that biologists and the people who are SUPPOSED to convince uneducated people about evolution FAIL to do so because they fail to come up with persuasive arguments and they answer questions with indignation rather than logic.

Yes, Adams is irritating me because he's hiding behind the "I didn't say that" defense. But geez -- you guys are just illustrating why people are predisposed to listen to the ignorant instead of the educated.

If you want a majority of people in this country to believe what you and I know is true, then start by treating others with respect. Otherwise, have fun in your ivory tower.



's avatar #49323: PZ Myers — 11/17  at  01:39 PM
There are a great many stupid people in the world who get by by demanding respect when they haven't earned it. I think we should stop granting it to them.

Now where do you get the idea that I refuse to answer the argument that scientists are supposed to instruct uneducated people? The answer I give is that yes, they are. Yes, we do.

That doesn't mean we should never slap fools upside the head with a cluestick.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#49326: — 11/17  at  01:45 PM
He's actually doing a heck of a lot more to answer people than PZ, who refuses to answer the argument that biologists and the people who are SUPPOSED to convince uneducated people about evolution FAIL to do so because they fail to come up with persuasive arguments and they answer questions with indignation rather than logic.

You mean evolutionary biology teachers teach their classes with indignation rather than logic or persuasive arguments? After all, they're supposed to convince uneducated students about evolution.

Oh, right, I forgot. Biology teachers get paid to teach biology, so their opinions are biased and don't count!

I wonder if Scott Adams wrote his books for free, and if he also expects people to believe the things he writes. I sense a bit of hypocritical special pleading here.



's avatar #49329: Chris Clarke — 11/17  at  01:54 PM
I wonder if Scott Adams wrote his books for free, and if he also expects people to believe the things he writes. I sense a bit of hypocritical special pleading here.

Good point. Scott Adams makes a great deal of money by being a snarky asshole. Why should we grant his snarky assholery in this instance any credibility?

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#49330: — 11/17  at  01:55 PM
Scott adams has a BOOK ONLINE, called "God's Debris". Go download it (for free!!) here:
http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/
and read the "science" section (starts on page 18 of the pdf).

Sigh. I used to really like Dilbert. I assumed Adams wasn't an annoying guy. Oh well.



#49332: — 11/17  at  01:57 PM
Well, Adams replied about his "darwinists say ID is false because the Earth is old" quote, and it went pretty much as expected:
Here I was referring to personal conversations, not famous Darwinists. I can name three off the top of my head, but you wouldn't know them. And I've received that argument by e-mail about a hundred times.

So, by "darwinist", Adams means "three people you don't know who talked to me, and a bunch of people who e-mailed me". I guess they were credible. Reminds me of someone:
"'I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"' 'But 'glory' doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master- that's all.'

Adams must have learned from Humpty Dumpty- elsewhere, when he said "all hominid fossils", "all" means "one from each species". Masterly.
He goes on:
I'm also reading the Dover trial transcripts where the lawyer opposed to ID in schools is painting the ID experts as creationists to make his case. ---Scott

So, for Mr. Adams, a lawyer equating ID with Creationism is the same as a darwinist saying ID is false because the Earth is old. Hmmm... illogical, full of himself, unfunny... that's enough of my time wasted.



#49333: John Emerson — 11/17  at  02:00 PM
It only gets better!

On his comments, Adams says that the pro-evolution people who made the faulty "10,000 year" claim were not "famous evolutionists", but just ordinary pro-evolution people.

So when he says that the pro-evolution and the ID people he's encountered are equally bad, he's only talking about pro-evolution laypeople. It has to be that way, since he's already excluded biologist evolutionists from his pool, because of their conflict of interest.

!!!!!!!!

So what does he mean then, when he says that the evolutionist spokesmen are unsuccessful at communicating with the average man? When he says that, he seems to be talking about experts, but he deliberately ignores experts except when they're dissing him personally.

I've never seen the cynical, sorta hip, sorta cool, vaguely populist American Group Mind out itself quite so blatantly. This has been tremendous fun, except when I think about how many of them there are.



#49336: — 11/17  at  02:03 PM
I'd really like to know where on TO he found the argument that ID is false, because the earth is more than 10,000 years old.

Assuming Adams is talking about http://www.talkorigins.org/ -- I wonder if he is unaware that this is a resource dedicated to providing information in the entire gamut of anti-evolutionary pseudeosciences -- not just ID. So if he looks at the Moon Dust answers and thinks "well, the ID folks don't claim that," he's right -- but nowhere on talkorigins.org is that claimed. Maybe he went there thinking he was looking at http://www.talkdesign.org/ instead.



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