Pharyngula

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Thursday, November 17, 2005

Open Thread

image

This is not going to become the all-Scott-Adams blog, and this will be my last post on the subject, but he has put up another comment—a request that people write in and show specifically where he was wrong. Of course, Adams moderates his comments, and is going to use this as an excuse to whine editorially. For instance, there's one comment there that says that "Scott claims that the Darwinism/ID debate is scientific", and that ID doesn't meet the standards of science; Adams says he didn't say that and dismisses it. But of course, what Adams did do was assume parity of the scientific and creationist arguments, and present the ID arguments against evolution as if they had some legitimacy. You can tell that he's just going to hide behind his excuse of "I'm a humorist just reporting what some people have said," and that thread is going to go nowhere.

So, instead, I'll take advantage of the open thread mechanism here and invite you all to put your rebuttals here. Remember, take specific things Adams has said and explain why they are wrong.

It is really silly and hypocritical for Adams to be doing that. My original comment on this business was a list of specific things Adams got wrong with explanations for how they were wrong, and he just ran away and said he didn't say any of it. Expect much hairsplitting from him.

Anyway, here's the short list of things I said in that first post. Add some more!

  • Adams claims the Designists only differ from us in answering the question of how change occurred. I pointed out that they don't try to answer the "how" question, and asked him to list some specific hypotheses.
  • Adams made a vague statement that "Darwinism" was full of flaws; it sounded much like the usual Discovery Institute claims, most of which are cataloged in Wells' Icons of Evolution. I linked to a refutation of the book.
  • Adams made a specific claim that all hominid fossils would fit in a small box. I gave a link and a quote from a source that shows that is wrong, and also mentioned that it was irrelevant—ID creationists argue against evolution of properties common to all chordates or all eukaryotes.
  • Adams made claims about biologists that are completely wrong. He says that "90%+" of all scientists think Darwin got it right; I pointed out that this is not the case at all, we are well aware of parts that he got wrong, and this is why we object to the silly business of calling us "Darwinists".
  • Adams says that it is a "not-so-kooky argument" that scientists are so specialized that they don't understand the big picture, that all scientists are thinking their own fields lack evidence for evolution, and we're all cluelessly assuming the other guy has the data. This is not true at all for most of us. He seems to reject the arguments of scientists, though, because they are scientists. Apparently, cartoonists are supposed to be better able to understand what scientists know than scientists themselves.

(Oh, and since this is an open thread, feel free to say anything else you want, too. I agree that Adams is rather boring, and I'm sorry that recent server problems have limited what I can post.)


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3371/cR4TEvoe/

Comments:
's avatar #49338: Raven — 11/17  at  02:07 PM
Murphy, what are you going on about? Have you ever actually read any posts at this site, other than this one? For example, you've never actually read any of PZ's evo-devo posts, have you? I mean, can you show us any indignation or lack of logic in the cichlid mandible teaching post, just to take the latest of many?

PZ spends a lot of time* crafting elegant and beautiful essays on evolution and development, and he strikes the fine balance of making them accessible to a lay audience without dumbing them down. He responds to questions in the comments and treats people, regardless of biology background, with respect when they ask sincere questions, as opposed to just striking nihilistic poses like Adams did, earning the smackdown he got.

* unpaid time, I'm sure, since I doubt professors are paid for blogging--he does that as a service, and the only reason even to mention this at all is Adams' silly "paid != credible" constraint.



#49342: — 11/17  at  02:17 PM
Sorry for doubleposting here, and for breaking my vow to put Scott Adams behind me, but I couldn't resist this zinger: called on his assertion that the intelligence agencies of all major countries thought Saddam had WMD's, Adams replied:
My information comes from Colin Powell and John McCain. I suspect the truth is that while there was plenty of doubt about individual bits of evidence of WMDs, no intelligence agency thought Saddam had zero. -- Scott

So, here we have the credible sources for this assertion about what intelligence agencies the world over were thinking: Powell, McCain, and, you guessed it, Scott Adams! Hey, he is a pretty funny guy after all!



#49345: — 11/17  at  02:26 PM
There are a great many stupid people in the world who get by by demanding respect when they haven't earned it. I think we should stop granting it to them.

Now where do you get the idea that I refuse to answer the argument that scientists are supposed to instruct uneducated people? The answer I give is that yes, they are. Yes, we do.

That doesn't mean we should never slap fools upside the head with a cluestick.


PZ - you're sounding a lot like Dawkins in that post.



#49351: — 11/17  at  02:33 PM
You know, when I first started reading Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, talkorigins, etc., I too thought that the scientists, although correct, were rather mean to the creationists and IDers (who were just as mean back). I thought something disturbingly similar to Murphy's post: wouldn't it be tactically better to convince these people with patient explanation of why their arguments were wrong?

But, I kept reading.

I noticed something. Whenever I came upon a conversation where a scientists WOULD patiently dispatch all the claims posted by a creationist or IDer, that creationist or IDer would either a)disappear without a trace when proven wrong, b) post a number of other incorrect "arguments" (a process that would repeat over and over until the poster would get back to the first "arguments" again, and repeat them as though they hadn't already been proven wrong), c) post a statement that he or she "just wasn't convinced" although poster would never specify why, and furthermore that he or she "didn't have any more time to waste on this thread" and would THEN disappear without a trace, or d) finish up with a statement along the lines of "I'm not convinced because I don't WANT evolution to be true." This last approach was often accompanied by statements that atheists' worlds were devoid of meaning and that belief in evolution was the cause of the world's major problems today.

No matter how many times I saw a creationist or IDer begin a debate with an incorrect claim, and have the error patiently explained to him or her in a clear-cut manner (full of references to further helpful materials), I never saw that creationist or IDer say, you know, you're right! Now that you have patiently explained why my arguments are wrong, I accept evolution!

I'm not saying this never happens, I'm just saying that the kind of people who come to these sites and belligerantly rant about why evolution is wrong aren't looking for explanations. They aren't won over by respect. They have already chosen the view that evolution is wrong, and they will cling to that view come hell or high water.

Murphy, do you really believe that the people who claim that evolution is wrong, but refuse to learn anything about it (and, in fact, scoff at the very idea of doing so) are going to be won over by *respect*? Do you really think that the average American who rejects evolution, rejects it because that American has never been able to find a source that explains evolution *politely*? Example: do you really think that Adams would change his tune if some scientist sat him down and said, "here, let me gently and respectfully lead you through the wonderful world of evolutionary theory"?

Do you think the average anti-evolution American would? Should we mail each of them an evolutionary biology textbook? Apparently, they have no access to this material except through websites full of rabid scientists.



#49356: — 11/17  at  02:45 PM
This is true. Most Creationists are a lost cause and the best we can hope is to make fools of them in public so that their stupidity doesn't spread.



#49367: — 11/17  at  03:10 PM
All that said, I will say I have seen posts on talkorigins by former creationists telling their stories of discovering and accepting evolution. I believe at least one of these people explained that he had previously posted "arguments" against evolution (the ones we've seen a million times before), just like the creationists and IDers we get so annoyed by. I think most of these people were creationists because they had been raised that way and had never been exposed to a real education in evolution.

The difference is, people who aren't a lost cause behave with intellectual honesty. They read the references they are sent, make the best effort they can to understand what is explained, and THEN ask other questions they may have.
They don't leapfrog from argument to argument in an attempt keep from getting pinned down. They don't conclude their argument with "well, despite whatEVER you say, I am unconvinced, although I refuse to explain why." They don't completely ignore replies that disprove them. And they admit when they're wrong. Maybe you can't quite tell if this is one of the few diamonds in the creationist rough from the first posting, but you can tell from subsequent replies and exchanges.

I think it's obvious that Adams does not fit into this category.

I think it's obvious that we rarely get creationists or IDers who fit this description here at Pharyngula.



#49370: — 11/17  at  03:20 PM
I might get around to posting something relevant later, but for now I have to note that, whereas Pharyngula is loading very nicely today, dilbertblog keeps giving me DNS timeouts.

Yes! There is a God, and She is just wink.



#49377: — 11/17  at  03:40 PM
I know I shouldn't have but I went ahead posted a response of at Dilbert's site. Basically I said that he has unwittingly made it clear he know's nothing about evolution, and what's worse he refuses to learn anything about it. Now that's deeply wrong!



#49391: Kagehi — 11/17  at  04:09 PM
On the same note, and since today I can (mostly) get this site to work for me, I thought I would post a link to an article I found yesterday. Also one I saw today that was kind of neat:

Amateur's Find is Missing Link in Ancient Lizards
http://livescience.com/animalworld/051116_missing_link.html

The Secret of Bright Butterfly Wings: LED Technology
http://livescience.com/animalworld/051117_wings_led.html

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein



#49401: — 11/17  at  04:29 PM
Me: He's actually doing a heck of a lot more to answer people than PZ, who refuses to answer the argument that biologists and the people who are SUPPOSED to convince uneducated people about evolution FAIL to do so because they fail to come up with persuasive arguments and they answer questions with indignation rather than logic.

PZ: Now where do you get the idea that I refuse to answer the argument that scientists are supposed to instruct uneducated people?


PZ, the important part of that sentence wasn't the subject. It was the verb. "FAIL." "FAIL to do so." "FAIL to do so because ..." This negligence in reading comprehension is why Adams is having a field day with you. The people piling on against you on The Dilbert Blog aren't ID fans -- they're people who are amused, perhaps shocked, that a rational biology professor would argue like this.

The point is this: Scott Adams posted a critique of the ID discussion that had a few errors. But the over-the-top response to it and PZ's constant misrepresentation of everyone who isn't genuflecting to him has "proved" -- in a perverse way -- that Adams is right to be skeptical of you guys.

The reason I'm not letting it go: On the underlying topic, you're RIGHT!! There are too many people in this country who think ID belongs in science classrooms as a scientific theory, and it's your job to stand up and say otherwise. If you argue as PZ has in the quotes I've cited above -- taking part of a sentence as if it's the whole point -- you will lose the argument.

That ... is ... the ... point ... I'm ... making.

KMarissa raises an excellent question:

Murphy, do you really believe that the people who claim that evolution is wrong, but refuse to learn anything about it (and, in fact, scoff at the very idea of doing so) are going to be won over by *respect*?

No, I don't. I can't recall if I've already said so, but those aren't the people with whom you're arguing. You're arguing for the benefit of the people who haven't made up their minds. Most likely, it'll happen at a school board meeting in which you'll have a couple of board members who will swing the vote, and you may not even know which members they are. And it's an argument you HAVE to win.

Beyond the school board, you have to convince those who vote in the board elections -- like the people in Pa. who, thankfully, picked the right side of the argument.

If you go into a school board meeting and misrepresent opponents' arguments, tell people they're parroting arguments that exist on some obscure Web site they likely never read, or tell people they're idiots because they aren't familiar with some terminology that's only tangentially related to the discussion, you ... will ... lose ... the ... argument.

Please don't.



's avatar #49404: PZ Myers — 11/17  at  04:52 PM
One important part of that sentence is the verb "refuses". This is false. If you're going to complain about misrepresentation, don't try to misrepresent me.

There was no misrepresentation of Adams. He erred in treating creationism and science as having equal footing and equal problems in explaining the origins of life on earth. This is incorrect. He did not make a "few errors". His entire argument was riddled with major errors.

You must understand that trivializing gross errors, treating them as inconsequential in making his major point, is a serious problem. You want to complain about scientists failing to make a solid argument. What about popularists who build an elaborate argument on a foundation of lies? All of his premises were false, which should cast into doubt his conclusions...but strangely enough, all the dilbert fans seem to gloss over that.

Yes, we may lose the argument. It will be because people like you and Scott Adams make excuses for idiocy, and demand that people with expertise treat people armed only with ignorance as equal partners. I don't do that. I won't do that.

There's a little something called "integrity" that prevents me from pandering to wrong-headedness and dishonesty.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#49405: Ron Zeno — 11/17  at  04:54 PM
Murphy (and Adams) just don't get it...

Who's supposed to convince the uneducated? They say the experts, and they're wrong. The experts' jobs are in research, not p.r.

The experts are failing to come up with persuasive arguments? Perhaps, but the experts' job isn't to presuade, it is to present their data and rationale in a way that can be examined. In important ways (ethics, logic, transparency, etc), what they do is the very opposite of persuasion.

Finally, Murphy asserts, "they answer questions with indignation rather than logic." I suppose you have to have some expertise in logic before you can differentiate it from indignation ;)



#49413: John Emerson — 11/17  at  05:05 PM
Murphy, Adams is a lazy, dishonest, superficial guy who made negative statements about us (i.e. evolutionists), which he hasn't been able to justify. He's not The American People. Why shouldn't we slam that turkey they way he deserves? He's basically telling us that he'll stop being an idiot if we kiss his ass, but screw that. (That Common Man schtick is pretty nasty, coming as it does from a famous multimillionaire).

I didn't see any piling on against us at Adams site -- he's got four comments up at the moment. He moderates his site according to his whims, so I wouldn't necessarily take a one-sided response there very seriously anyway.

Adams draws particular contempt here because of the pride he takes in his ignorance. He's a snide little game-player, not an average citizen, and he can go screw himself. (He's been on record for a long time as an evolution skeptic, BTW).

And... please... stop... talking... to... us... this... way...

I... don't.. know... what... effect... you're... trying... for... but... it... isn't... working.



's avatar #49418: Raven — 11/17  at  05:17 PM
I... don't.. know... what... effect... you're... trying... for...


Captain Kirk?



#49419: Kajiki — 11/17  at  05:26 PM
No, no. You see, he's the tourist and we're the natives who don't speak his language. He thinks he'll get his point across if he says the same things again, only slower and louder. Hey, it works for Twoflower.



#49427: Geoffrey Brent — 11/17  at  06:03 PM
Adams' complaint that he can't find anybody 'credible' to believe on evolution/ID is the same kind of wrong as stuffing your eiderdown with live geese because you can't be bothered getting the feathers off, and then bitching about the noise they make.

Scientists are people. We have our own interests, we have our prejudices, and yes, sometimes when somebody flaunts their ignorance we charge at them flapping, honking, and pecking instead of respectfully attempting to educate them. (This is largely because most of us have long since learned that those who flaunt their ignorance will cling to it like a limpet; vis. the number of Dilbonians who persist in labelling us here 'Darwinists' long after being corrected on that. At least flapping-honking-and-pecking is satisfying, and wastes less time.)

But if you want to keep warm at night, it doesn't matter a damn how obnoxious the goose is. What matters is the quality of its feathers, and with science, what matters is the quality of the argument. Telling scientists "you guys need to be more diplomatic, or you're going to lose the argument" misses the point - when somebody decides to choose between scientific theories on the basis of their proponents' personalities, science has already lost, even if it wins. If ("I'm only going to stuff the quietest, most well-behaved geese into my eiderdown!") Sure, we could smarm up and play the "trust me" game, and maybe win a few more votes in the next round of school board elections - but it would mean forgetting what science is actually about, and in the long run that would be losing the war in order to win a battle.

If you're not prepared to pluck the feathers, you don't get a comfortable eiderdown, and there's nothing the goose can do to change that. If you're unable or unwilling to evaluate scientific arguments yourself, no 'credible scientist' can make your decision more meaningful than a coin-toss.



's avatar #49436: — 11/17  at  06:17 PM
Adams' complaint that he can't find anybody 'credible' to believe on evolution/ID is the same kind of wrong as stuffing your eiderdown with live geese because you can't be bothered getting the feathers off, and then bitching about the noise they make.


I try to avoid "Amen!" posts, but damn, Geoffrey, you hit the head of the nail as squarely as I've ever seen. Not just the above-quoted metaphor--the entire post. Well said!



#49461: Eva Young — 11/17  at  07:39 PM
Adams is getting way more attention than he deserves with this.

Intelligent Design Creationism is Political Poison in the Plymouth/Minnetonka Special Election.

From the Strib:

But their differences grow clearer when the focus turns to their views on social issues such as abortion and gay marriage.

[Republican candidate Judy] Johnson is an opponent of abortion who also supports an amendment to the state Constitution banning gay marriage. She said she is open to the idea of teaching students in public schools about "intelligent design," an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution.

"I personally don't believe in evolution," she said at a recent debate, adding, "I think you need to teach all points of view."

But Bonoff calls intelligent design "a euphemism for teaching about God in schools," and she opposes its introduction into the classroom. She's an abortion rights supporter and opposes amending the state Constitution to ban gay marriage.

I've been following this race:

http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/sd-43-chamber-of-commerce-debate-i.html

The other area where they differed was on whether Intelligent Design Creationism should be taught in the public schools. In response to a question about "Intelligent Design", Johnson said that all points of view should be taught, though she did not say whether she thought Intelligent Design Creationism belonged in the biology curriculum. Johnson did make a point of calling Intelligent Design "creationism", which other Intelligent Design advocates try to deny. Bonoff said Intelligent Design was religious views and should not be part of the public school curriculum.

After the event, I talked to a writer for one of the local newspapers, who said she has been following my blog coverage of this race. That's nice to hear. This person mentioned that I should look into the Minnetonka School Board race. Intelligent Design Creationism is a major issue in that race. Creationist Minnetonka School Board member, Dave Eaton is NOT up for election this fall. There are other Intelligent Design creationism advocates running for school board seats in Minnetonka.

More coverage at Lloydletta's Nooz.

http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/10/matt-abe-loses-his-mob-teeshirt-matt.html

http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/11/intelligent-design-creationism-is.html

http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/11/judy-johnson-running-away-from.html

http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2005/11/intelligent-design-creationism-loses.html



#49465: — 11/17  at  08:17 PM
Adams' complaint that he can't find anybody 'credible' to believe on evolution/ID is the same kind of wrong as stuffing your eiderdown with live geese because you can't be bothered getting the feathers off, and then bitching about the noise they make.


Wow. I second the "Amen!"

Murphy, if you read that and thought "What the hell geese?!" then do yourself a favor and go over it again more carefully. That was my first reaction too. =)

But back to this:
"If you go into a school board meeting and misrepresent opponents' arguments..."
Again, what was PZ's mischaracterization? He is quite right, Adams DID make major, gross errors, and presented them unambiguously. I'm sorry, but I don't launch into a four-paragraph discussion of a claim made by another party, describe it as "not-so-kooky," and include your own independent example backing up the claim, and then try to say that I was in no way trying to lend credibility to that other party's claim.

Adams was NOT just saying "you science types need to learn to argue better." He was saying, both directly and indirectly, "your evidence isn't as good as you think it is." You cannot sanely tell me you interpret this:
"On the other side, Intelligent Design advocates point out a number of flaws in the textbooks that teach Darwinism" to mean anything else. We called him on these "flaws" and his other misstatements, and he got snippy. Flaws he hasn't presented, by the way, and neither has he presented examples of the mischaracterizations that he claims he found at TalkOrigins which STARTED this whole thing.

You seem to keep thinking we don't understand what you're saying. We understand DAMN well. You're saying the errors Adams made were not that big a deal and that PZ's mischaracterizing him. Again, 1, they ARE a big deal, and 2, where did he mischaracterize him? Be as specific as you possibly can.

And while you're at it...since you continue to insist that we don't know how to argue, give us a specific example of how we SHOULD. Seriously. Okay:

I'm Scott, you're PZ. I just said to you "Well, I'm no biologist, but those ID people aren't so nuts when they say the strength of your evidence is illusory because each of you guys thinks the OTHER guy has the 'really good stuff.' Heck, it's just like this situation I had when I was building this tech lab..."

Now, what do you (as PZ) say to me?



#49472: Federico Contreras — 11/17  at  08:54 PM
This is the best blog in the universe.



#49484: coturnix — 11/17  at  09:50 PM
Why are Powerline and the like calling themselves center-right on this Minnesota blog compiler:
http://mnorgblogs.blogspot.com/
Where did they get that "center" idea from? GeoCENTRism? EgoCENTRism?



#49507: — 11/17  at  11:09 PM
#49404: PZ Myers — 11/17 at 04:52 PM
There was no misrepresentation of Adams. He erred in treating creationism and science as having equal footing and equal problems in explaining the origins of life on earth.

This is your whole problem. There currently is a debate going on between your theory of evolution and Intelligent Design. If there wasn't such a debate, there would be no trial to follow now would there? There would be no books to ridicule. There would be no Panda's Thumb website. You’re burying your head in the primordial clay if you think otherwise. You may not like it, I grant you that. But there it is.

(I don't know what to call your theory of evolution because if I call it Neo-Darwinism you'll call me a creationist)



#49520: — 11/17  at  11:47 PM
This is your whole problem. There currently is a debate going on between your theory of evolution and Intelligent Design. If there wasn't such a debate, there would be no trial to follow now would there?


Please, sir. We are not that dense. If you would read us with a bit more care, or simply used a bit of thought, you would realize that we're extremely, painfully aware of the debate that rages on. The POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS debate. There is no scientific debate over evolution.

We are also aware that being right scientifically may not help us politically. That leads to an entirely different discussion, but in short, I think many of us maintain the hope that sanity will prevail in the long run. In the meantime, we do what we can with public education. Despite Adams' vague protestations to the contrary, I think the quality of our efforts is good and improving, even if the audience we manage to reach is still limited.



#49524: — 11/18  at  12:21 AM
The POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS debate. There is no scientific debate over evolution.

You're absolutely correct. But the intelligent designers have brought the debate to the general public as a scientific debate.

How are you going to explain to a school board made up of housewives and cabbies in some school district this subtle difference?



's avatar #49530: — 11/18  at  01:33 AM
"housewives and cabbies"

They are paying the taxes that pay scientists and teachers's salaries. In a democracy, it is necessary to convince them it is a good investment. Should housewives and cabbies reach the conclusion that schools are indoctrinating their children with harmful nonsense like grandpa was a chimp, we shall have a problem.

Scott Adams may have a point: We have a credibility problem with the plebs. Our vehement protests of innocence only increase their suspicion. We should learn the techniques from politicians, who succeed to sell their credibility while they have none. We know we have it, but Dilbert Sr. and the people like him cannot accept it.

The bottomline is that scientific truth - that is, truth - is impalatable. The mere thought of evolution makes people vomit. It tastes like death. We know it is good for us but it is terribly bitter. No amount of public relations can mask this reality.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



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