Pharyngula

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Sunday, August 28, 2005

Or maybe it's an example of absurdist British humor...?

A pompous kook named Bryan Appleyard has a pro-ID piece in the London Times—may I be forgiven for briefly thinking maybe America isn't damning itself with this anti-scientific tripe if we manage to poison the rest of the world with it, too?—and I'm not going to spend much time on it. I've run into Appleyard's hackwork a few times before, and I can't say that I like the flavor it leaves in my mouth. Fortunately, Educated Insolence has already given it a good going over. I'll just pick up one error that just happens to annoy me a lot—it's an idea that isn't unique to creationists, but also too common among some people who favor evolution.

Furthermore, the claims of neo-Darwinism have been expanding. In the form of evolutionary psychology it now claims to be able to explain human behaviour in spite of the fact that a key aspect of human behaviour is that it has stopped the processes of evolution, by, for example, using contraception and keeping handicapped people alive.

I'm no fan of evolutionary psychology (or Evolutionary Psychology), but it's about historical influences on human behavior; that circumstances have now changed from our prior hunter-gather environment doesn't mean past evolutionary events don't affect us. But the main bit of nonsense here is the ridiculous idea that evolution has stopped for us. It hasn't, and in fact is probably accelerating, in the sense that we've removed many selective forces that would have culled back variants in the past—we're accumulating novelties in our genomes faster than before. It should also be self-evident that not everyone has children, and different people have different numbers of children, and people have different levels of success in raising healthy children to adulthood. The only way one could think evolution has stopped is if one has a very poor idea of what evolution is.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2811/hA5u2g9A/

Comments:
#37834: — 08/28  at  03:05 PM
Appleyard pontificates:

The co-decipherer of DNA, Francis Crick, for example, once defined the “central dogma” of molecular biology as the one-way flow of information from gene to organism. This central “dogma” would stop evolution in its tracks — information has to flow back to the DNA from the organism, most obviously by its death, to tell the DNA it got something wrong.


All I can say to that is... Whaaaa??? This is why its so hard to debate these loons. Where the hell do you start with such a ridiculous pile of poop?



's avatar #37835: — 08/28  at  03:13 PM
The best I can describe the Appleyard piece is that it's confused. He seems to have swallowed ID propaganda whole without bothering to check the facts, or even the source of his information, repeating bollocks like
Meanwhile, intelligent design (ID) is being studied and developed in some respected universities.

as though it was an established truth.

Ach, bloody Times has been crap at science since Murdoch took over. Anyone remember the rubbish they used to print about HIV? Do they still do that?



#37838: — 08/28  at  03:40 PM
[PZ Writes]But the main bit of nonsense here is the ridiculous idea that evolution has stopped for us. It hasn't, and in fact is probably accelerating, in the sense that we've removed many selective forces that would have culled back variants in the past
<br>
At the risk of slipping into "social darwinism", aren't human behaviors and forces just specific and more recently emerging mechanisms that comprise the selection process? I have never understood the comment that is sometimes made that we are no longer evolving. That somehow, we have taken control of this natural process.

If, we somehow manage to extend life indefinitely, will we have halted the evolution of our species? Not so long as there are limited resources such as space, food, water, and breathable air.



's avatar #37839: — 08/28  at  04:00 PM
Undoubtably, the selection forces on our intelligence are as strong as they've ever been, if not stronger. We still lie to and cheat each other, and engage in sophisticated social games in order to gain advantage. (Of which this whole "ID vs the Evilutionists" thing might be regarded as being part.)

In fact, the sheer number of fellow humans we moderns have contact with each day compared to our prehistoric ancestors would seem to vastly increase the pressures on our intelligence. So many more opportunities to deceive, or be deceived.



#37840: — 08/28  at  04:15 PM
Hey, a great excuse to write a letter to the Sunday Times! I like the way he confuses evolutionary biologist with militant atheist.

"The BBC, for instance, presents anything but the strictest neo-Darwinian orthodoxy as clear evidence of insanity."

Wow, where to start? The fact is that the BBC has had at least 2 articles in the last 3 months on its website covering this very subject. Both were fairly neutral. At least one allowed comments, which I am afraid to say were about equal in numbers on either side. I note he doesnt produce any examples.

And it wasnt even Darwin who showed the earth to not be 6,000 years old. That started with geology in the 18th century, and there were sugestions of it in the 17th. Idiot.

Hey, he brings in Steven Jay Gould as an opponent of gene centred orthodoxy. So what?

Some adherents to ID are driven by religiosity? I think you'll find its 99.9%.

"But neo-Darwinism has also in many cases abandoned proper scientific inquiry. Instead of testing the theory against the world, its most passionate advocates test the world against the theory."

Nope, I dont think so.

PZ might like this article:
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/08/16/a-life-with-no-purpose/



#37841: — 08/28  at  04:27 PM
"The BBC, for instance, presents anything but the strictest neo-Darwinian orthodoxy as clear evidence of insanity."

Is the same Brian Appleyard I recall being interviewed by the BBC in 1991 or early 1992 where he was allowed to spout garbage like "Galileo robbed us of our place at the centre of the Universe, and Darwin robbed us of our birthright?"

He's not a newcomer to this sort of guff. Been doing it for years. Move on people - nothing to see here.



's avatar #37844: PZ Myers — 08/28  at  04:47 PM
Yeah, every time I run across one of his articles, I start to suspect that Monty Python's Upper Class Twit of the Year skit was actually a documentary.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#37849: — 08/28  at  06:36 PM
It is also important to remember that evolution is not goal oriented, but accumulates adaptations as a result of both differential reproduction and differential mortality. We've limited the extrinsic mortality aspect of the equation in modern western societies (it's getting harder even for dumb folks to kill themselves off), and we've pulled the reproduction aspect back closer to the rate of replacement, with more couples contibuting to less reproduction. My guess would also be that there is more assortative mating as people marry who meet at school and work than met in their village of origin in days of old...So, more diversity across the distribution.

All this said, ya can't go wrong assuming that the dominant factor in determining variance is regression to the mean, and that smarter generally means fewer offspring....We don't (and can't) know what evolution is "selecting," but for what it is worth my money remains on stupidity....



#37856: Matt McIrvin — 08/28  at  07:43 PM
The words "Brian Appleyard" have a tendency to make smoke come out of my ears so that it's hard to read anything that follows. He's been at this a while.



Trackback: ID Nonsense In England Tracked on: Kinshasa On The Potomac (72.9.234.70) at 2005 08 28 18:24:32
I find ID to be an interesting socio-cultural phenomenon and worthy of examination as a case study in how social constructs like religion evolve. In the case of ID, you have religion cloaking itself in the terminology and the surface methodology of s...



#37859: — 08/28  at  07:56 PM
Looks like the phenomenally high and rigorous standards of the British tabloid have wrapped another disturbingly antireason tendril around The Times' throat. It's somewhat creepy to hear any of this stuff this side of the pond, though; a friend recently whipped out the classic groaner that evolution is 'only' a theory. Absolutely chilling to have to clear up creationist rubbish with someone born, raised and educated in this country.

And it's always a pleasure to see a known crank (Appleyard's a UFO nut, too, among other things,) getting a free pass to flout their very special brand of logic in a national paper. The Times' high readership is a mixed blessing, though, and there's a good chance university profs and biologists will get a good stab at clearing up this nonsense (to the usual calls of censorship, naturally.) The Guardian will have good mocking fodder at the least.

-Schmitt.



's avatar #37865: — 08/28  at  11:25 PM
Schmitt, Published by The Times and mocked by The Guardian? Not only the cows are going mad in Britain.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#37869: — 08/29  at  01:49 AM
David Irving is a brit too, isn't he?

The lesson for today is that stupidity has never been confined to a single country. It abounds, throughout the world.

-jcr



#37871: Andrew Brown — 08/29  at  02:32 AM
The Times should not be confused with the </i>Sunday Times</i>, for which Appleyiard writes. Both are Murdoch owned, and both are dreadful, but in different ways; and the _Sunday Times_ is much worse. Its record on science is particularly bad -- for years it ran with HIV denial theories.

But the Sunday Times is not the Sunday edition of the Times. They have separate editors and staff.



's avatar #37872: Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling — 08/29  at  03:14 AM
I've never heard of Bryan Appleyard, but that probably shows how much I read the newspapers. His article is pretty confused. There are some valid points about not knowing exactly how life originally got started (how did RNA/DNA form?), but the rest of it is mostly garbage. Talking about information "flow to DNA from the organism" is the kind of twaddle which reveals just how ignorant this chap is about evolution.

To be honest I think the majority of people have a view about evolution which is at least as confused as Appleyards. Stop someone in the street and ask them what they think evolution is and you will get a range of answers, some of them quite amusing. Allowing things such as ID to be taught seriously in schools will add to the general confusion.

Unfortunately we live in a world where the views of TV celebrities or newspaper hacks do eventually filter through and influence political decision making. It's really up to scientists to become more active in the public arena to counteract some of these false prophets.



#37873: — 08/29  at  03:25 AM
stupidity has never been confined to a single country. It abounds, throughout the world.
It's not even confined to a single species. It's just particularly noticeable in humans because the high degree of variation between smart ones and stupid ones there has the most contrast.

However, there are some exceptionally stupid cats (for example) too. :-D



#37874: — 08/29  at  03:26 AM
Appleyard has been spouting this stuff for years. Ever since his book "Understanding the Present" - where he boo-hooed about Science destroying our 'soul' or something. He does however represent a strain of effete anti-science irrationalism that is not uncommon among some British cultural commentators and journalists - Melanie Philips is another one who comes to mind. On the other hand, Appleyard is a towering intellectual compared to Mail on Sunday’s ID cheerleader Peter Hitchens – now he does have PhD in advanced carpet chewing.



's avatar #37875: — 08/29  at  04:29 AM
I notice when Pharyngularians debate a British subject, the quality of their prose improves phenomenally. PZ should target more that island´s strain of Creationists. Evolved in an island, they may present some interesting features.

Bryan Appleyard maintains that scientific knowledge is not morally neutral, that new developments are mostly bad; that genetic screening and abortion are eugenics which will lead us to Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

If knowledge of Nature is not neutral, Nature itself must be good or bad. If I comprehend his ideas, mostly evil. Too bad for him.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#37882: — 08/29  at  06:01 AM
"But the main bit of nonsense here is the ridiculous idea that evolution has stopped for us."

But if evolution works by selection, and selection requires variation and important differences between individuals, how can human evolution possibly still go on if everyone is essentially equal in the genetic level, as many people like to claim?



#37884: — 08/29  at  06:40 AM
if everyone is essentially equal in the genetic level, as many people like to claim?
You are badly mixing up so many things it's hard to know where to start to unravel your mistakes.

Firstly, it doesn't matter (scientifically) whether many people claim something. If it isn't true, their claims still don't make it true.

Secondly, I suspect you of conflating more than one version of "equal". If you mean equally evolved in terms of time-distance from an ancestral single cell, then yes but hardly relevant since it doesn't make all descendants identical or preclude further evolution. If you mean "all men born equal" in the declarative sense of having "rights", then those are an idealised social construct not a reality. If you try to take that literally instead, then again reality begs to differ - as evidenced by differing mathematical and athletic abilities etc.

Humans are clearly not all equal (in the sense of identical) at the genetic level either, since there is a wide variety of alternatives for parts of the genome - as is being documented in the human genome project. These differences in genotype are reflected in the phenotype, eg by the fact that you don't look identical to either your mother or your father.

In what way do you regard the differences which do so evidently exist as being unimportant? It might become critical one day that you can or can't outrun someone else when being pursued by a lion. It might become critical that you can remember the difference between the likely contents of bottles labelled H2O and H2SO4.



#37887: — 08/29  at  07:36 AM
SEF: "In what way do you regard the differences which do so evidently exist as being unimportant?"

I do not. However, quite a few people do, especially those on the "nurture" side of the nature vs. nurture debate.

"Humans are clearly not all equal (in the sense of identical) at the genetic level either, since there is a wide variety of alternatives for parts of the genome - as is being documented in the human genome project."

There is lots of genetic variety, sure. But if all those varieties are functionally equivalent so that the differences in the phenotype and reproductive success of individual humans essentially depend on nurture, how can human evolution by selection possibly still go on? Selection requires that genetic differences cause important phenotypic differences, a claim which many people vigorously deny today.

"It might become critical that you can remember the difference between the likely contents of bottles labelled H2O and H2SO4."

Surely you are not saying that genetic differences between humans have an effect on their cognitive abilities, which in turn have important consequences on how their lives will turn out? Because that is one very big and bad no-no to be saying these days.



#37890: — 08/29  at  08:16 AM
Surely you are not saying that
Yes, I am (among other things).

genetic differences between humans have an effect on their cognitive abilities, which in turn have important consequences on how their lives will turn out?
Yes, that's what research on identical twins, raised separately and unknowing of each other, by very different households shows. They ended up with almost identical IQs and preferences. From choice of clothing, qualifications, job and marital partner to some pretty weird coincidences over children produced.

Because that is one very big and bad no-no to be saying these days.
Again you mistake claims made by people for reality. Some people pretending that reality is wrong (for their own ideological reasons) doesn't alter that reality.



#37892: — 08/29  at  08:42 AM
One thing of interest in the question of current evolution of humans is the fact that we do make substantial efforts to ease selective pressure on the population. The medical field is largely based on relieving selective pressure on humans. The societal construct of monogamy has gone a long way towards easing sexual selective pressure. While we haven't stopped evolving, one could say the our evolution has lost its original direction as a result of our societal changes. As a result, the average genetic fitness of a human in the current population may well be lower than the genetic fitness of our ancestors, simply because the absence of strong selective pressure has allowed for the success of detrimental alleles. For example, while I am probably smarter than my average ancestor, I am blind as a bat when I don't have my glasses. Such blindness would make me very genetically unfit in the absence of technological remedies. As such, I think that you could argue that, while evolution is still occurring in humans, much of the directional evolution that drives changes in the mean of a quantitative trait has stopped, and what we are seeing is variation around the mean. Unfortunately, many more mutations are detrimental than are helpful (with most being neutral), this means that the population should tend towards less genetically fit offspring for all cases where selective pressure has been abated. This will keep the medical community employed forever, but is it a responsible strategy for the success of humanity? Or is my reasoning flawed?



's avatar #37895: — 08/29  at  09:29 AM
Shygetz,

You are right that
we do make substantial efforts to ease selective pressure on the population
but you are wrong thinking that these efforts are effective. They are not.

In theory, everyone may have the number of children he or she wants (within physiological possibilities) and the children's survival is ensured. In reality, almost no one is exploiting this unprecedented opportunity. When 20 -30% of the people has zero success in reproduction, and when another 50% fails to achieve the 2.2 children required for self-replacement, we have to conclude that having children in our society is VERY difficult and therefore, the effective selective pressure is higher than experienced by former generations.

Why having children is so difficult? Many think it is a voluntary, personal decision, but of course, statistically it is not. If I knew the answer, I would sell it to the French, who for the last 100 years are trying to increase (French) natality, with no great success.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#37900: Alon Levy — 08/29  at  10:18 AM
Why having children is so difficult? Many think it is a voluntary, personal decision, but of course, statistically it is not.

Actually, it is, in a way. As women's rights progress, women stop considering themselves children-producing automatons and start thinking about their own needs and desires; as economic conditions progress, people no longer have children solely as working hands or old age insurance.



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