Pharyngula::Paul Nelson is visiting UMM

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Monday, April 04, 2005

Paul Nelson is visiting UMM

PZ Myers • 38 Comments (last page)

Just to add to my burden lately, my campus is having a guest speaker Wednesday night. Sponsored by the UMM chapter of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, it's Paul Nelson of the Discovery Institute (who I've mentioned before). He will be speaking on "Why is the Problem of Macroevolution Still Unsolved? Evolution Meets Intelligent Design". I haven't even heard the talk yet, and I already feel like taking a chainsaw to the frickin' title.

Why	Yeah, right. Like an Intelligent Design creationist will be able to answer the question of "why" or "how".
is the Problem	"The" problem? Like there's just one? Nelson better have a darn good explanation of what exactly his problem is.
of Macroevolution	If you ask me, the problem of macroevolution is in the details of how it occurred. Get a creationist up there, though, and the question becomes whether it occurred. And I hate that. It's just too stupid. I hope Nelson won't make that mistake, although I suspect his credulous audience will be assuming it.
Still	Misleading. As if there will be a moment when a genuine scientific problem will simply go away, and lollipops will sprout from our gel trays and we'll play video games on our computers instead of running BLAST searches and we will frolic and play and sing and do our happy dance. Incompleteness does not mean science is a failure.
Unsolved?	Macroevolution is not an equation to be solved. We do not expect a discrete answer. There is the historical fact of macroevolution—it happened, get over it—which is bristling with millions of details to be worked out, and there are multiple processes that drive it, some of which we understand to some degree, others of which we are working on. Anyone gives you a pat answer, roll your eyes and tell 'em to pull the other one.
Evolution Meets Intelligent Design	Like Godzilla meets Bambi. What was I just saying about pat answers? "God did it" does not "solve" any problem in macroevolution of which I am aware.

Jeez, but I'm feeling cranky. Nelson picked a bad week to stroll into my back yard—I'm thinking I better wear a muzzle to this talk. Maybe I can get a few students to strap me to a frame and wheel me in ala Hannibal Lector.

Anyway, if anyone wants to make the trip out to Morris for the spectacle, the talk is at 7:15 Wednesday, in the Science Auditorium (which has also been used by the anime club to show cartoons, so it isn't entirely out of line for a creationist to give a talk there.) It should be entertaining, although the way my week is shaping up, I may just crawl into a desk and melt for a while during the blather. I'll try to avoid being either so burned out or so furious that I can't take decent notes, though, and will report back here on what he has to say.

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Comments:

#21000: — 04/04 at 09:32 PM
Don't get yourself thrown out for bad behavior, either.

#21001: Ben — 04/04 at 09:49 PM
Screw that. Get hideously drunk and hurl whisky bottles at him between paragraphs. When security grabs you and hustles you towards the exit, start hysterically screaming that you can buy and sell everyone in the room. Then go urinate on his car tyres.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.

#21002: PZ Myers — 04/04 at 09:51 PM
No, I'm afraid I'm actually a quiet guy in person.

I think Ben ought to get on a plane and fly out here, though. I'll pick you up at the Minneapolis Airport and drive you the three hours it takes to get to Morris.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

#21003: Orac — 04/04 at 09:52 PM
I really like the idea of your being strapped to a frame and wheeled in like Hannibal Lector. After the talk is over, perhaps one of your students could take the mask off and let you at him...

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com

#21005: — 04/04 at 10:00 PM
I second the Hurl Whiskey Bottles motion. But be merely tipsy. Better aim.

#21006: Les Lane — 04/04 at 10:02 PM
Nelson quote:

"Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don't have such a theory right now, and that's a problem. Without a theory, it's very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now, we've got a bag of powerful intuitions, and a handful of notions such as 'irreducible complexity' and 'specified complexity'-but, as yet, no general theory of biological design."

#21007: — 04/04 at 10:03 PM
Seriously though, I suggest you just ask "What experiments are ID Scientists doing to verify their theory?"

#21008: — 04/04 at 10:08 PM
I apologize for being off-topic, but I just wanted to bring this recent story to PZ Myers' attention:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/2276299p-8655575c.html

It's about how young-earth creationists think the Dinosaur-tissue find published a few weeks ago actually *helps* their cause.

Again, I apologize for being off-topic, but this cite does such an excellent job responding to ID/creationist stories in the news, I thought it was worth bringing up. I love this website. I'm a history prof and found this site after being stunned when a student unabashedly took William Jennings Bryan's side in the Scopes Monkey Trial. Evolutionary theory is outside the scope of my class, but I did have a civil discussion with her after class (I was a bio major as an undergrad, so I didn't flinch). I appreciate the information provided on this website and others. This ID crap is spreading.

#21010: Ben — 04/04 at 10:12 PM
No, I'm afraid I'm actually a quiet guy in person.

I guessed that, hence the "hideously drunk" part to kill the inhibitions. But considering you probably have a "reputation" to maintain in your town, I'm willing to take one for the team. You supply the plane ticket and I'll supply the duty-free hard liquor and full bladder. Trust me, the tactic works. It got Ken Ham out of the country.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.

#21013: — 04/04 at 11:23 PM
Give 'em hell, Professor.

I second Jim E.'s thank you- I have a fine grasp of logic but only a high school grasp of biology, so I hope to learn enough from this site to be able to answer Creationist arguments in person without having to think "Dammit, 30 seconds with google and I'd know the facts to refute that!"

#21015: — 04/05 at 12:06 AM
The flip side of this is that Louis Leakey is doing two talks here in West Texas next week (one in Lubbock and one in Midland). I expect he's going to get more than his share of YEC abuse.

#21017: — 04/05 at 12:25 AM
By which I mean Richard Leakey. I'm an idiot.

#21018: — 04/05 at 12:26 AM
Yes, the good Dr. Myers is a well behaved fellow in public. I suspect the real annoying thing about the Nelson lecture will be any new converts that show up in Biology class later in the week, armed with new 'knowledge'.

#21020: — 04/05 at 12:28 AM
Regardless what you do PZ, I surely wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall just to see Mr. Nelson attempt to answer any one of your questions honestly and logically! Ever think of taking a Web cam with ya and simulcasting it over the net?? Just a thought...

You will have the good nature to post a brief transcript of the nights events won't you?? ;)

#21021: JMJanssen — 04/05 at 01:16 AM
I volunteer for the wheely job.

#21023: Nullifidian — 04/05 at 01:48 AM
You could always attend the speech and ask when his forthcoming definition/quantification of ontogenetic depth and his response to critics will be posted. He <a href="http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000048.html">promised</a href> it would be ready "tomorrow" over a year ago.

"We are obliged, therefore, to spread the news, painful and bitter though it may be for some to hear, that all living things on earth are kindred.” Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire

#21024: Danny Boy — 04/05 at 03:05 AM
As an anime-watching evolutionist, I take offense at your snide remark near the end of your post! Oh, and give Nelson hell, that lame Young Earth ID'er.

#21025: — 04/05 at 04:19 AM
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to use the tactics of the ID world against them? Namely, get a list of articles from Pubmed on a topic (say, eye evolution, or flagellar evolution), and during the question and answer period, one by one, go through the abstracts of the articles asking for the proper ID rebuttal to the evidence in each and every paper. Keep going as long as they allow you to. Be respectful and pointed and see how long the speaker stays on topic?

#21026: — 04/05 at 04:31 AM
Off-topic, but is this post showing up okay in everybody else's browser? The table is playing heck with the page's format in my Explorer (OSX).

#21027: Republic of Palau — 04/05 at 04:37 AM
Waah! The formatting of this post has made Opera go nuts.

#21028: Virge — 04/05 at 04:47 AM
I think Nullifidian has a fair question, perhaps best phrased:
"Why are the Problems of Ontogenetic Depth Still Unanswered?"

#21030: — 04/05 at 05:11 AM
NelC - I had it throw a spaz at me too, but then I refreshed, and it seemed quite alright.

#21034: — 04/05 at 06:50 AM
Thankfully, John Wilkins has already addressed this topic:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html

#21035: — 04/05 at 06:57 AM
"By which I mean Richard Leakey"
Yes, I was going to say. If it were Louis it would probably be taken as evidence that the creationists were right! It would be interesting to hear Nelson's response to some hard questions. Love to be there but my boss has some weird notions about people actually showing up and , imagine that, working! Sick 'em PZ and Ben (did you really pee on Ken Ham's car?)

#21038: PZ Myers — 04/05 at 07:25 AM
Sorry about the formatting -- dangling tag. It should be fixed now.

Don't take offense, Danny Boy. I'm sure you don't think anime is real, right?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

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Monday, April 04, 2005

Paul Nelson is visiting UMM

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