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Sunday, June 12, 2005

Pinkoski again: How stupid can creationism get?

I've been having some fun with a bizarrely didactic creationist comic book by one Jim Pinkoski that purports to explain all the flaws in evolutionary biology. What it really is is the most astounding collection of bad creationist arguments I've ever seen gathered in one place. I've been trying to slog through rebuttals, but unfortunately, it's like every word and phrase is so far off kilter that it's going to take me forever to get through it. One putative "problem" that I've already dealt with is that we only use 10% of our brains, and so scientists are stupid and untrustworthy, but here's another one: evolution requires that everything be extraordinarily brilliant. Or in comic book speak,

Evolutionists are saying that "teeny-tiny" life forms somehow willed themselves to "evolve," which means that we must credit
MICROBES
with being smarter than Albert Einstein!!!

How many errors can we find in that one sentence? Well, evolutionists have never said anything of the sort, evolution isn't a matter of willing new features into existence, and no one credits bacteria with high intelligence. Pinkoski illustrates this bogus concept with a "steg-o-moeba" trying to will itself into becoming a stegosaurus.

Pinkoski's errors
Pinkoski's errors

Here's a closeup of that little amoeba wishing it were bigger and had eyes. Cute. But totally divorced from reality.

This is entirely contrary to what evolutionary biology actually teaches: there is no intelligence behind changes. There are variations within populations, and the variants that are most successful at coping with local, short-term conditions are represented at a higher frequency in subsequent generations. Pinkoski's ideas are actually anti-evolutionary, and even have a technical term associated with them: orthogenesis. If there were actually a program of evolution driven by the will of organisms, that would be evidence against evolution. You can't refute modern biology by inventing a thoroughly silly argument, and pointing out how silly it is—because evolutionary biologists will also tell you how silly it is. It is a classic straw man.

It gets better. Take one straw man, and compound it with a gross misunderstanding of how animals develop, and turn it into a mega-straw man, a Tyrannosaurus rex of straw.

If "evolution" is true, then each major life form would have to evolve it's own eyes (as well as every other major organ of its body)!

Again, if evolution is true, it predicts exactly the opposite: new species do not evolve the majority of their features anew, but inherit them from the parent species. Homo sapiens did not have to generate four limbs, a head, a pancreas, a spine, etc. de novo—we got those from our predecessors. The process is called descent with modification, not descent with reinventing everything all over again every time.

Orthogenesis, weird ideas about evolution without inheritance…Pinkoski is about to ratchet the absurdity up a few notches with his very own novel thoughts about bilateral symmetry.

Common sense tells us that "evolving" all the individual parts of the eye is impossible, but I want to address an aspect that most overlook—
Pinkoski's errors
If the "eye" really evolved, when did all these animals decide that 2 eyes were better than only 1 eye??
"Evolution" depends largely on mutation—and it only makes sense that if an "eye" suddenly mutated into existence, then that animal would only grow 1 of them!!
SO WHERE ARE ALL THE 1-EYED T-REXES, 1-EYED ALLOSAURS, 1-EYED STEGOSAURS, 1-EYED VELOCIRAPTORS, ETC.?? WHERE?!!

Ouch. That's so stupid it hurts to read it. Apparently, Pinkoski has this vision of evolution in which each new species arises from an amoeba, which has to sprout each of its organs by force of will, and each step lingers about long enough to limp about and leave fossils of its pathetic intermediate state. It's not just eyes, it is the whole shebang.

Believe it or not, "bilaterally symmetrical" prove how impossible evolution is! Just like it was stated on the previous page about the evolution of the eye, the same thing applies to arms, to hands, to feet, to ears, to fins and to wings, etc.!

EVOLUTION SAYS THAT EACH OF THESE ORGANS EVOLVED BY MUTATION, AND IF THIS WAS TRUE THE MUTATION WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FORTH ONE OF THESE BODY PART AT A TIME! SO, WHERE ARE THE 1-FINNED TURTLES, 1-WINGED BIRDS, 1-FLIPPERED PORPOISES, AND THE 1-ARMED 1-EARED 1-LEGGED "APE MEN"??

Evolution is refuted because there are no fossils of one-winged pigeons lacking a pancreas and a beak? If there were collections of the kinds of organisms Pinkoski describes, we'd have to reject evolution, because clearly there would be some extremely peculiar piecemeal assembly of animals going on—the kinds of transformations that would violate modern biology's conception of organisms as integrated wholes.

Just as I've inherited four limbs and a head from the great and ancient tetrapod class, so too is bilateral symmetry an inheritance from ancestors even farther back. Bilateral symmetry is over half a billion years old. What it reflects is the presence of signalling molecules that define dorsal and ventral (back and front), molecules that define identical domains on the left and right sides. Your left and right eye are not independent creations, but are instead the product of the same genes expressing themselves in response to simpler signals that are active on both the left and right sides of your head during embryonic development. It actually requires specific, additional mechanisms to break symmetry, and vertebrates that are normally lopsided, like flounder, are generated by a secondary modification of initially symmetrical forms.

Pinkoski's argument rests on a total absence of awareness about what biological evolution really says. Creationism is an intrinsically ignorant enterprise that crumbled away long ago for people who actually study the evidence, and only persists in those who refuse to examine the science behind it, and think that stacking misconceptions on top of one another is a path to the truth. This particular creationist story got nothing right.

  • Evolution does not occur because individuals want it to happen. Mutations arise by chance, and populations evolve by the survival of favorable (and sometimes not so favorable) variants.
  • Every new species is not an independent creation. It inherits a full suite of characters from its parent population, and modifies their expression.
  • Intermediate forms are not incomplete or non-functional or lacking in major characters. Every species is complete and successful in itself, but is different. Evolution is about acquiring differences, not a drive towards some superior, more complex form.
  • Bilateral symmetry is not a problem for evolution. Mutations that generate a feature on one side of an animal tend to be in response to molecular signals that are present on both sides of the organism; paired features are often easier to evolve than asymmetries in animals that are inherently bilateral.

The disturbing thing is that this pack of lies is part of a series of which a quarter million copies have been distributed by Amazing Facts, a "media ministry" (I guess that's what they call it nowadays to avoid the taint of the word "televangelism") based in Roseville, California, and led by a genuine, literal troglodyte, Doug Batchelor. It's 56 pages long, and every sentence is either cockamamie nonsense or outright lies. As a science educator, I have to look at this thing and think…boy, do I have a lot of work to do.

(crossposted to The American Street)

Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2415/9NdubeYG/

Comments:
's avatar #28322: PZ Myers — 06/13  at  07:18 PM
Yeah, and I've read the whole thing. It's garbage from end to end.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #28332: — 06/13  at  10:33 PM
I see Pinkovski backed down from and repudiated his otherwise nice talking amoeba:
Back when I said that single cells cannot evolve to become massive life forms (multi-celled lifeforms), what I should have done is back up the statement to cover the fact that the very first single cell itself could have NEVER even come into existence by itself! Saying that the single cell couldn't become multi-celled left the door open to you guys slamming me
saying that he himself was ignorant of biology, but his smart big brother Hovind can win any debate.

I notice a spark of intellectual integrity in Pinkovski, a rare finding among Creationists. He has faith and hope of eternal life, which is perfectly right with me, and I feel no need to discuss that even if I cannot share it. What I do object is Pinkovski's work of propaganda based on caricature and misrepresentation, because it hurts public support for science.

The question posed to Pinkovski is: If Hovind is shown to be factually wrong (I mean in the restricted area of biology, not the Bible where his mastery is undisputed, nor other matters of faith), would that change the content of his cartoons?

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#28334: Jim Pinkoski — 06/13  at  11:04 PM
These forum messages are going to become far too much to reply to, but I'll try a few more:

Datenshi Blue commented on how the Grand Canyon could not be formed "in 40 days" -- but the Flood waters "prevailed upon the earth for 150 days" (Genesis 7:24), and took even longer to decrease -- so the time period was a lot more than 40 days. The geology of the entire world was rearranged, sediment layers were layed down by water currents, the collapsed underground aquifers created the major seas, continental shelves slid into each other and upthrust the high mountains -- and the water runoffs washed out the Grand Canyon. If others wish to believe that it happened differently, go for it. The entire event ran about a year.

Datenshi Blue also asked if evolution might be directed by aliens -- hey, a good question! In my opinion God and the angels ARE aliens!!! Oh, you meant UFO-aliens -- the UFO aliens are a fake-out being done by the fallen angels, just another "distraction" to keep people from taking the Bible seriously!

PZ Myers says he's maybe willing to debate Kent Hovind, as long as he can periodically kick him in the balls -- PZ, do you know what "assault and battery" is? You'll get arrested for doing that -- and anyway, why would Hovind want to debate someone who is as uncouth as you? None of Kent's other debates had to have the police on site for them, are you going to try to aim for a new low here? This is how you are going to impress people with your "advanced intelligence," by acting like you belong to some punk street gang? Yeah, maybe you're joking -- grown bold by the daily thrill of having your own uncensored website blog forum -- but come on, don't you realize that violence and intelligent discussion is a pretty big oxymoron? And you also said that you've seen Hovind "blitz through a lie a second" -- oh really? When you say things like that it makes me think that you are being intellectually dishonest because there is NO WAY that Kent Hovind would still have a ministry if all he was doing was repeatedly lying -- so you obviously enjoy exaggerating, PZ! (Or is it "lying"?...)

RRT commented on my "kidding/exaggerations" -- ever heard the phrase "A lot of truth is said in jest"? I relate to my Dino book as a whole, so don't just read it as single pages and judge the separate topics -- the whole thing stands as my simplified treatment of the overall complicated subject.

One of the things we definitely need to clarify is the term "evolution" -- today's Darwinian scientists seem to insist that the word evolution "only" pertains to observing changes in living animals -- but the Creationists say that you are using the word evolution to include the beginnings of life, and THAT is the part where we say that evolution falls down flat on its pudgy little face! Most rabid evolutionists hate the idea of there being a God or a Creator -- you completely start to panic whenever someone tries to introduce The Big "G" into the picture -- WHICH IS INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST OF YOU! Hey, a 10-year old kid watching Star Trek has no problem being able imagining an "all-powerful God-like Being" existing out there in the Universe -- but you "scientists" are appalled and terrified by the idea!

And if we have to deal with "intellectually dishonest" scientists to find out the Truth of Life who are more afraid than a 10-year old kid to try to imagine a Creator God, then there is NO WAY that any of you are ever going to really find the Truth! It's like dealing with a chemistry professor who uses an incomplete atomic weight chart of the elements! Or an astronomer who refuses to use the best telescope! (Can I remind you guys that I did cartoons for Carl Sagan back in 1987? How many of you ever had "contact" with Sagan? I did!) Or a doctor who uses out-dated operation tools!

The website http://www.masterbooks.net published IN SIX DAYS and ON THE SEVENTH DAY, books that have articles by 90 scientists who agree with Creationists -- and yeah, there's even some biologists there! Listening to these men is like listening to a breath of fresh air, they are not cowards when it comes to considering how God works into the Big Picture!

Hey, I admire science -- when my wife had her brain tumor surgery back in 2000, I really admired the professionalism of the doctor!

But one thing I DON'T admire is a scientist whose mind is too small to see if God fits into the equation!



#28338: pough — 06/13  at  11:45 PM
One of the things we definitely need to clarify is the term "evolution" -- today's Darwinian scientists seem to insist that the word evolution "only" pertains to observing changes in living animals -- but the Creationists say that you are using the word evolution to include the beginnings of life, and THAT is the part where we say that evolution falls down flat on its pudgy little face!


Scientist: According to the definition, evolution really only pertains to changes in populations of living things.

Creationist: Well, we say that you say that it's not just about that, that it's also about the beginning of life and it's that beginning that you don't discuss that we say you discuss and we say that what you say (without saying) is where you're wrong! Ha! Take that!

Seriously, dude. The term HAS been clarified. It's been a long time since I've seen anything as surreal as the point you just tried to make.

And for the record, it was imagining Star Trek's godlike aliens that finally did it in for my christinity. Burning bush with a lovely speaking voice or no burning bush with a lovely speaking voice, if I had those powers I would SO fuck the people of Earth. I'd give all the different hairless apes different gods to believe and then step back and laugh. There's no way to tell the differencre between the psychotic, multiple-personality god of the bible and one or more aliens with ADD.



#28339: — 06/13  at  11:46 PM
Jim,

You are an arrogant,arrogant man.

you said:'When you say things like that it makes me think that you are being intellectually dishonest because there is NO WAY that Kent Hovind would still have a ministry if all he was doing was repeatedly lying -- so you obviously enjoy exaggerating, PZ! (Or is it "lying"?...)'

Hovind is a fraud. I feel a little bad for you in that you haven't yet discovered what so many other 'creationists' and non creationists already know.

and.........
'One of the things we definitely need to clarify is the term "evolution" '

We don't need to do anything, educated people understand the term just fine.


-- 'today's Darwinian scientists seem to insist that the word evolution "only" pertains to observing changes in living animals'

Egads the correct definition. And it's not living animals but rather living things.


--' but the Creationists say that you are using the word evolution to include the beginnings of life, and THAT is the part where we say that evolution falls down flat on its pudgy little face! '

Thats abiogenesis. Who cares what creationists call evolution. The real scientists are smart enough to make the distinction.

'n "all-powerful God-like Being" existing out there in the Universe -- but you "scientists" are appalled and terrified by the idea!'

No one is terrified of anything, many scientists are theists. That doesn't mean they are as intellectually dishonest as you are being. They realize their beliefs are just that and science deals with evidence. Blending something for which they have no evidence into it cheapens things the way that you cheapen your religion.

Now go away, your boring.



's avatar #28340: — 06/14  at  12:16 AM
So now Pinkovski has given up all the territory from the creation of the first self-reproducing molecule to the present day living beings. There go those cute talking amoebas and his amazing one-eyed dinosaur. I presume should somebody solve that problem (to which science has yet to give a comprehensive answer, but judging on its past performance, surely it will in the future), Pinkovski can always retreat from biology to cosmology and say "OK jaimito, you know I am a cartoonist and not a biologist, what about the origin of the universe?"

People tend to say "God" when seeing something unexplainable, like a burning bush. For the Ancients, rain and draught were expressions of divine mood. Eclipses were explained recurring to everuseful God. Gradually, ignorance retreated to further and further corners yet unexplained by scientific inquiry. Please consider that it may be risky to condition one's faith to yet another unexplained natural phenomenon. You may find yourself in the situation of having to retreat more and more. Why dont you draw angels, seraphim and other imaginary beings instead of amoebas and dinosaurs? No one would object to that!

Quod natura non sunt turpia



's avatar #28341: Virge — 06/14  at  12:39 AM
Such delusions, Jim!
Do you really want to continue pretending that scientists are "more afraid than a 10-year old kid"? Is that the only caricatured way you can rationalise the disdain in which creationists are held? Have you considered another possibility to explain the scientific contempt for the creationists, i.e., anger that creationists are marketing snake-oil to children?

Can't you see what a parody you make of yourself by parroting this Hovind nonsense? Hovind doesn't attract ridicule because he's God's annointed hero in a foolish world. He attracts ridicule because he has no integrity, yet still tries to make scientific claims and markets them to accepting religious people. He makes money from it.

Even the creationists at Answers in Genesis folk accuse Hovind, in writing, of bearing false witness. Do you have some way to rationalise that accusation?

Look at how far the AiG folk have come. They're actually starting to distance themselves from the bogus arguments they used in decades past for absolute proof that the earth is young (the claims that have been debunked by serious scientists for years).

Try reading the counter-arguments with an open mind, Jim. It'll be painful at first.



#28343: — 06/14  at  12:50 AM
Listening to these men is like listening to a breath of fresh air, they are not cowards when it comes to considering how God works into the Big Picture!

There are a lot of scientists working who consider such things. Take Br. Guy Consolmagno, of the Vatican Observatory:

"His master's thesis at MIT and subsequent work modeled the evolution of the moons of the outer solar system, predicting and explaining many of the features later discovered by the Voyager spacecraft." (Emphasis mine.)


However, they don't let their contemplation of the mysteries of God to interfere with the facts. You're perfectly free to contemplate whether God created the first organism and sent it on the path to evolution. That's a question that scientists will never be able to answer.

But to deny evolution entirely is to deny God's work, which is clearly set out in front of us in the fossil record. And you end up lying to your readers by claiming that science says things it does not -- don't you remember the commandment against bearing false witness? Why doesn't it bother you to continually lie about evolution and the scientists who study it? Do you really think that a position built on a foundation of lies is not a house built upon a foundation of sand?

Again, why do you insist on shrinking God down to something you can understand? Why must your God be so tiny?



#28344: Guy — 06/14  at  12:59 AM
I've told a few people in the community about this before, but I'll mention it again here. I'm lucky enough to be at the University of Cambridge. Last week, my gf and I visited the Sedgwick Museum of Geology. In their collection, they have millions of fossils, collected over 300 years. In that collection of fossils are some collected by Darwin and Huxley (who were both students of Prof. Sidgwick himself...in fact, he recommended Darwin for the Beagle expedition). Looking at these items, I began for the first time to feel pity for those who cannot or will not see the beauty of evolutionary theory, its completeness, its obvious correctness. Observing these tiny creatures, each one an example of nature trying something different...it's awe-inspiring. Tiny organisms preserved in amber, or oxidized under rock...each one the culmination of millenia of occurences. None of them giving any indication of design. All of them better for having NOT been designed. To give up the beauty of that theory for what...comfort? Fear? Ignorance? All of the above?

Believe what you want. Believe in god, gods, pixies, leprechauns who steal your gold and make cereal, no one else should care. But the science is real. the science is correct. Open your eyes, and see.



#28361: — 06/14  at  08:27 AM
I find it "intellectually dishonest" for Mr. Pinkoski to focus on PZ's obvious hyperbole rather than to address the real question about debating Kent Hovind.

Perhaps he'd like to read about another such debate, this time with an opponent who might be more sympathetic to (though would not agree with) his perspective.



#28365: — 06/14  at  08:48 AM
Jim laid the groundwork for a graceful exit in his last post. But before you go, Jim:

Look, at least in my case don't take this as a personal attack. I have a lot of respect for your desire, your need, to believe, and I have no wish to dissuade you of it. And I think I understand how your form of dishonesty can come to exist in a person. I think you pretty much mean well. That does not change that you are being dishonest, to us and perhaps to yourself, and that isn't something we can tolerate. And hypocritical to boot, when you accuse us of "intellectual dishonesty" for rejecting an extraordinary supernatural hypothesis with no supporting evidence.

You cannot make such clear, forceful, specific claims in your book as you have and then, in the face of contradictory evidence, say "well, you have to look at my book as a whole." You need to respond to those specific refutations, acknowledge or deny them and provide support for your rebuttal, and adjust your work accordingly. Your response has been a dodge.

In regards to your 90 scientists, ever heard of Project Steve? http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18 You wanna talk numbers? We got your numbers right here. And we aren't even trying hard.

It would be helpful if you could tone down your "political cartoonist" side in such discussions, it hinders things. You make it hard to tell when you're serious, which doesn't work too well in such discussions. You ARE kidding about the UFO thing, aren't you?

Your work in this comic and your comments here are eager and emotional. It helps in science to be dispassionate. If you like Star Trek analogies, be Vulcan. Heck yeah we get excited over stuff, but when we analyze the evidence, we shut that down, or at least try very hard to. When we fail in that, we get cold fusion.

I really doubt that you've given the science in this proper consideration. I think you've looked at it many times, but only seen what you've wanted to see, or feared. A calm, patient and thorough discussion of evolution might help you with that, something it's hard to get in a forum. If you really want that, try talking to some of us directly via email. There are plenty of qualified scientists here who could help your understanding immensely if you really care to spend the time and effort, although of course I shouldn't speak for them.



#28368: — 06/14  at  09:58 AM
PZ Myers says he's maybe willing to debate Kent Hovind, as long as he can periodically kick him in the balls -- PZ, do you know what "assault and battery" is?


Well, PZ did say that he would only kick him in the balls if he digressed into nonsense, so isn't Mr. Pinkoski admitting that most of what Hovind says is nonsense?

I would welcome a kick in the ovaries if I started spewing nonsense in front of a crowd of people. It would save me the embarrassment of being wrong.

What I find dangerous about Mr. Pinkoski's jest is the crowd at which it is directed. Young people haven't had the chance to learn anything about the scientific stance on evolution, or science itself for that matter. Since I don't remember too much joking around in church material, I don't think a kid would appreciate the notion that the comic isn't a completely accurate representation of evolution. How can a person who has grown up with that sort of attitude ever hope to evaluate something scientifically?

Honestly, I think it is intellectually questionable to spread clear lies about anything and then justify it by saying, “just kidding!”



#28384: — 06/14  at  01:50 PM
"Man is becoming ever more fearful of the products of his own intelligence and freedom ... Concern for the moral conscience and the sense of moral responsibility has today become a fundamental imperative for men and women of science."

-Pope John Paul II

For some reason, Christians seem concerned that with the advances in science come a decrease in morals. It is because of this fear that I see the rise of Intelligent Design, couching Creationism in scientific-sounding ideas. To lead the sheep back to the flock.

I've never understood that fear. I don't need a god to tell me that killing is wrong(except in self-defense, war, and the Crusades), stealing is wrong, to respect my parents, etc. Why do they? In the unlikely event that the existance of God is disproven, does that mean it becomes ok to do whatever you want, no matter how horrible?

----

Pinosky was right in telling me that the Earth was covered in water for 150 days, and then took another 150 days to drain away. After that, I can't help but be skeptical.

"The geology of the entire world was rearranged, sediment layers were layed down by water currents, the collapsed underground aquifers created the major seas, continental shelves slid into each other and upthrust the high mountains -- and the water runoffs washed out the Grand Canyon."

First, of those 300 days, only 150 of them would've done any sort of noticeable erosion. Look at the ocean floors. They're pretty much the way they've always been for the thousands of years the Bible says the Earth has been around. When there is any sort of tectonic plate movement, the world notices. If they're large enough to create mountains, there would be gigantic waves that would've pummeled Noah and his boat into non-exisitance. I suppose God could've protected him, but that's not a scientific explanation. He could've been lucky I suppose, probably more lucky than the single-celled organism that developed a mutation.

At any rate, Genesis made the receding of the waters to be a sedate event. No earthquakes, no struggle for survival. (And enough food to last Noah, his family, and two of every creature for a year. His boat must've been the size of Great Britain) And where did all the water go? It didn't just go into the oceans, because presumeably, they were already full(and then some, seeing as water levels reached new heights, covering the highest mountains and basically making the Earth a giant globe of water). Conservation of mass dictates all that water had to go someplace. God could've taken it away I suppose. I rather prefer the more logical explanation(and there's a bit of geological evidence to back it up) that there indeed a flood, but hardly one that purged the earth of all the sinners.

----

All that "scientific" evidence for creationism, for ID, just admit it's all faith. Science works by making observations, gathering evidence, and then formulating a theory. Creationism came to a conclusion first, looks for signs that it's right, then spends its time trying to discredit that which contradicts.

An analogy can be made using those "UFO aliens."
Science: Looks at crop circles, listens to dubious testimony, comes across nothing concrete, and concludes "probably not."

ID-style approach: Decides that there ARE aliens, cites crop circles and abduction stories as proof, then procedes to claim detractors are part of a government-style conspiracy or that they're just stupid.

Pope John Paul II inadvertantly said it best when he was admitting the Vatican was wrong about Copernicus and Galileo almost 400 years later. "The discovery made by Copernicus, and its importance for history and science, remind us of the ever-present tension between reason and faith,"

Reason and faith are two seperate things, and really have no business mucking about in the other's domain. I wont attack the Bible with logic, and you shouldn't try to attack science with faith.



#28388: Jim Pinkoski — 06/14  at  02:20 PM
Mnemosyne wrote, "but to deny evolution entirely is to deny God's work" -- yet on page 8 of my Dino book I clearly said (in really big letters): "When the animals got off the Ark, God EVOLVED changes into the animals so they could survive in this new world!"

Hey, guys, try to pay attention!

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION -- as long as it has happened over the past 4,300 years -- but when you guys want to drag it back millions of years, I don't buy it. There are flaws in your dating processes, flaws in your interpretation of the layers in the geo-illogical column, flaws in ALL arguments for evolution happening over supposed "millions of years"!

And yet, I DO believe that the Earth is millions of years old! But it just had no life on it up until God put it here about 6,000 years ago -- (sorry to make your brain cells boil to have to read that terrible 6,000 number again) --

You guys think you have a solid case against Kent Hovind, but all he has done is point out over and over and over again how evolutionists and evolution in textbooks REPEATEDLY TELLS LIE AFTER LIE AFTER LIE about nearly all the supposed "proofs" for evolution -- and when I read from you people on this forum that you cannot find even one thing by Kent that is OK, I realize that I am dealing with a group of people who merely have an AGENDA TO LIE to support their precious evolutionary theories!

You guys LIE about Java man, you LIE about Lucy, you LIE about the horse ancestary chart, you LIE about fetuses mimicking evolution stages, you LIE about upright trees sticking through different geology layers, you LIE when you ignore the arguments about the earth's magnetic field, you LIE when you respond to the rotation of the moon orbiting the earth -- SO WHY SHOULD I EVER CONCLUDE THAT ANY OF YOU ARE ACTUALLY "RIGHT" ABOUT ANYTHING? All I see is repeated pathological LYING done by evolutionists in the evolution vs. poor old Kent Hovind's Creationism!

If a few of you actually have changed your opinion about some of the things I mentioned that are textbook "lies," then great -- BUT TELL THE REST OF YOUR EVOLUTION BUDDIES THAT THEY ARE LIES AND GET THEM OUT OF THE BOOKS!!!



#28391: — 06/14  at  02:45 PM
I'm....sorry, did you just say we lie about the moon rotating around the Earth? Are you trying to imply then that the Earth revolves around the moon? Does the sun revolve around the Earth? Was John Paul II too hasty?

I'm sure the comments from many of the people on the board wherein they just say mocking things about you and your book are hard to take, and I sympathize. But you're not helping your position when you fall back on calling everyone a liar with no more arguments to back it up than it contradicts the creationism idea. Certainly, losing your temper over this doesn't help your credibility. To be honest, it's just as easy for evolutionists to point fingers at Creationists and say they have "AGENDA TO LIE" to support their precious evolutionary ideas.

Incidentally, I don't see why you believe the Earth is millions of years old. If you take the Bible as literal truth(which you seem to have done), the Earth, life, and everything else was created in seven days. Hardly the stuff of the ages.

If you do believe the Earth is millions of years old, that means you agree with the scientists on that point. And if you do, isn't it possible they're right about carbon-dating as well?

I find myself repeating myself over and over. Reason and faith are two different things. If you don't believe in the traditional form of evolution(as opposed to that spontaneous thing you mentioned) because of faith, fine. No one can touch you. But don't say you don't believe in evolution because of SCIENCE. Evolution is science's baby.



#28392: — 06/14  at  02:49 PM
Hi Jim. I've been following this conversation with some interest.

Have you read the material by Answers in Genesis which refutes the claims made by Hovind? It's here if you haven't seen it. What do you think of those refutations? AIG are one of the best known biblical creationist organisations - I'm interested in why you believe Hovind, and not AIG.

I like your artwork by the way. I said on another blog that it reminded me of the British '2000AD' artwork of the 1970s. Do you still do stuff professionally or do you solely concentrate on your Christian work?



#28394: Orac — 06/14  at  03:25 PM
Uh, Jim, for a "lie" to be a lie, the person telling the lie must know that what he is saying is not true but choose say it anyway. In other words, a lie requires intentional deception on the part of the person telling it. Are you really claiming that all these evolutionists whom you accuse of lying actually know that evolution is "false" but spend their careers studying it and defending it against creationists like you anyway? If so, I'd really like to see you back up your accusations with some actual examples and evidence, rather than rants.

I rarely, if ever, accuse creationists of "lying." I do, however, tell them what they are mistaken about and reference the evidence to back my points up. If they don't listen or ignore what I say, when they regurgitate the same misconceptions and exaggerations again, I point out that I have given them the information already. In contrast, you simply rant and rave about how evolutionists are "LYING" (in capital letters). If you don't have a very firm basis for concluding they are "lying" and can't back up your accusation of lies, then, sadly, I have to conclude that you are bearing false witness against "evolutionists."

That's rather un-Christian behavior, I must say.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#28402: — 06/14  at  05:40 PM
Hey Jim, check into Kent Hovind's "Ph.D", the next time you imagine he's respectable.



's avatar #28406: Virge — 06/14  at  06:32 PM
Ummm, Jim...
Continually shouting "LIAR" without presenting support for your repeated assertions does make you sound like you've closed your mind.

All you've done to support your position so far is to make sound-bite references to Kent Hovind's authority. You won't accept that any scientist is telling the truth, so read what your creationist colleagues are saying. (I posted links back in comment #57, as did Paul in #66.) Since even the God-fearing folks at AiG are prepared to call Kent's material "false witness", I must again ask you to explain why we should accept Hovind as anything other than a deluded and intransigent voice.

When you understand why Hovind can keep repeating fallacious arguments (which not surprisingly mesh perfectly with his literalist view of the Bible), then you'll start to understand why scientists reject the young earth hypothesis. It's a hypothesis that can seem to match certain isolated pieces of evidence (the ones that creation science clings to), but when applied to the wealth of biological, geological, astronomical and archeological evidence, it fails.

Warning: The process of examining the claims and finding that you've been misled is painful, and it doesn't happen overnight. To look back at your past and realise that you've made public statements in unconscious ignorance of a subject is humbling.



's avatar #28407: PZ Myers — 06/14  at  06:35 PM
Especially when they aren't LIARs, Pinkoski's just STUPID. I've addressed it here.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28463: — 06/14  at  10:32 PM
Stupid is not the world, PZ. Pinkovski is no intellectual and hates controversy. When shown some inconsistency he retreats and retreats and then adopts the classical childish attitude of denial: "YOU ARE ALL LYING!". It is like a child who has been told something terrible like the death of a beloved person, and doesnt and cannot accept its reality. He has closed his mind to rational arguments, a trauma or a psychological barrier prevents him to even consider changing his mind. I think deep inside he knows that science is true and Creationism a fairytale. He may need some quiet to get around it.

Another angle is what can an adult person do if, after achieving success as a professional Creationist illustrator, realizes it is all about nonsense. Start a new career?



#28466: — 06/14  at  10:48 PM
...What can an adult person do if, after achieving success as a professional Creationist illustrator, realizes it is all about nonsense. Start a new career?
No. He could still write the exact same material, but instead market it as some brilliantly insightful satire.

Anyway, I'm sure most would agree that it serves as a much better vehicle for satire than it provides an argument for Creationism.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#28470: John — 06/14  at  11:35 PM
Pinky wrote:
"It was an illustration of a concept of the foolishness of ANY microorganism being able to grow into a multicellular larger life form --"

Yo, Pinky-- many scientists study single, ameboid cells that aggregate into a migrating, multicellular, larger life form IN ONLY 24 HOURS!

http://soils1.cses.vt.edu/ch/biol_4684/Microbes/Dictyostelium.htm

So, does the existence of this phenomenon have any effect on your rant?



#28475: tg — 06/15  at  12:34 AM
so the pygmy has had contact with Sagan . . . i get it now . . .



#28476: jamie — 06/15  at  12:52 AM
I'm LYING on the floor in absolute amazement over Carrol's Endless Forms Most Beautiful, and I pity the fool who rejects the factual theory of evolution . . . Were I a theist, I'd be quite impressed with the elegance of it all . . .

And good point, Steve. The "university" which awarded Hovind his "PhD." looks mighty small. Kinda looks like a house, actually.



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