Pharyngula

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Monday, May 02, 2005

Quit being such a wimp, Ruse

Quite a few people have mentioned the article by Michael Ruse in the Boston Globe to me. I've been slow to respond because this is the last week of classes, and hoo boy do I have a pile of grading to do. I also knew that if I dawdled someone would come along and do the heavy lifting for me.

So I could just announce that Ophelia has it exactly right, and stop right there. I have a weblog, though, so I've got to babble on a bit.

Ruse's argument is that we've got to avoid antagonizing the decent, moderate Christians if we want to make headway in the evolution wars. He thinks scientists who are atheists ought to be more cautious and politic in their comments about religion (which is quite the odd thing to hear from Ruse, who has a bit of a reputation for making statements that evolutionists have to disavow, and for collaborating with creationists).

Ruse, a self-identified agnostic, acknowledges the "thrilling quality" of Dawkins's writing but says he objects to adamantly anti-religion statements coming from a scientist. "I don't have any more belief than Dawkins," he says. "But I do think it matters that he is making it very difficult for those of us who care about evolution to put forward a reasonable face to the reasonable portion [of the public] in the middle."

This is a peculiar position he has taken. Is the "reasonable portion" of the public antagonized by the existence of atheists, or at the idea that we might speak up? Do we have to die or emigrate, or is it sufficient if we're just very, very quiet about our upsetting beliefs? Should we keep mum about any other ideas we might have that might possibly irritate the prejudices of the lay public?

Perhaps we have a different idea of what constitutes a "reasonable" Christian. I grew up in a whole family of them: a father who was brought up in the Church of Christ and gave it up for a kind of casual agnosticism, and a mother who was nominally Lutheran. We had Catholics and atheists and Baptists and Mormons and a few members of some weird cultie evangelical thing all mingled together in the big extended family; you know, America, where religious pluralism is supposed to be a fact of life. Half of them thought nine-tenths of the others were all going to Hell, but that didn't stop us from all liking each other and still inviting everyone to Thanksgiving diner.

Somehow, though, people have gotten this idea that the moderate, reasonable mass of Christians consists of people who will spit in the eye of an atheist and turn up their nose at anyone who follows a different sect. Ix-nay on the odlessness-gay, we mustn't inflame the mob—good American Christians despise those people.

That attitude is what's wrong, though. Such people aren't moderate, or reasonable, and we shouldn't be catering to their bigotry. Many scientists happen to be atheists, and that should be no more shameful or hidden than the fact that a few cousins on my father's side are LDS. My family hasn't disowned me because I'm an outspoken atheist, because they're good people who see beyond sectarian dogma—let's trust in those kinds of religious people who don't judge people by the god (or lack thereof) that they worship (or don't). Those poor Christians who think otherwise are the ones who should be ashamed and who should be discouraged from promoting the idea that intolerance and fear is a necessary component of religious belief.

Let's also promote common sense. Science is an atheistical endeavor; we don't invoke gods or pray for specific results in our work, and that's the way it should be. Many of us also take that attitude into our private lives away from the lab, and that's also reasonable, as is the fact that others are willing to set aside scientific thinking in other parts of their life. I think it's just as much a sensible matter that scientists don't use religion in their work as it is for other occupations. Who wants to hire a carpenter who relies on prayer to keep his constructions standing? Or a plumber who trusts in faith when he's knocking holes in your walls? How about an electrician who believes God will keep his work from shorting out and burning your house down? In the same vein, I don't trust a scientist who tries to solve problems by invoking invisible, intangible, omnipotent beings who hide in the blank spaces of our knowledge.

Godlessness is a good thing, a pragmatic thing, and most of the religious people in this country (I hope) recognize its value in part of their lives, if not the whole. I say we should build on that rather than squeaking in embarrassment when cranky ol' Richard Dawkins expresses his opinions forcefully.


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Comments:
#23681: Dave — 05/02  at  01:04 PM
I loved the article. I have found that within our own fight against the Intelligent Designers here in Kansas, many organizations who fight against ID refuse help from the Humanist/Atheist organizations. Of course they like the big speakers we can get in, but it's the back of the building after the speakers come in. I've even got members of our own organization, The Heartland Humanists, who argue most passionatly that we should "lay low" and not draw attention to ourselves in fear that we "taint" the cause. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Thanks for taking up a good cause, and writing so eloquently on it.

Dave



#23682: — 05/02  at  01:07 PM
thankyouthankyouthankyou

It's time to invoke the name Neville Chamberlain any time some ignoramus advocates appeasement



#23683: — 05/02  at  01:11 PM
Ack! One of my closest friends is a philosopher also named Mike Ruse. That's not him though. (The Mike Ruse you've spanked today wrote a book, I think it was a first, about homosexuality. This led to a lot of jibing back when he was doing his dissertation.)

Have you seen this story on today's Slashdot? The title is The Pseudoscience of Intelligent Design. It's pushing 2000 comments. Well, maybe 1500 if you don't count goatse and tubgirl links and frost pists.

http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/05/02/1059247.shtml?tid=146&tid=191&tid=14



#23684: — 05/02  at  01:20 PM
I meant to write that the book Mike Ruse wrote was his first book, I didn't mean to imply that it was the first book on the topic.

Science is an atheistical endeavor.

I strongly disagree. Well, OK, bullshit. Science is a nontheistical endeavor. But it's not an atheistical one. Not unless you can show be some experiments which have proven the non-existence of God. This is not appeasement or hypocrisy. It's simply an accurate description of the case. Of course, that isn't to say that the former isn't stupid politics to boot.



#23685: — 05/02  at  01:26 PM
Sorry for posting three in row here but I want to clarify. I think it's very important that atheists come out of the closet and not keep quiet about their atheism simply out of fear of offending someone's fragile and dainty religious sensibilities and faith. The bible-thumpers are just going to have to get used to it.

But to equate science with atheism as if one were intrinsic to the other would be not only a lie, but worse, it would be a mammoth blunder.



#23688: — 05/02  at  01:56 PM
Barry, atheism is not what you think it is.

You seem to be confusing atheism (the lack of belief in gods) with Strong Atheism (the belief in the non-existence of gods).

The former is the historically correct definition of atheism as the most prominent atheist thinkers have held and defended across several centuries; incidentally, it fully fits science as well. You may call it nontheism if you like, but it is properly called atheism.



#23689: Michael Sprague — 05/02  at  02:04 PM
Perhaps, Emanuele. But his point is still a good one, is it not? After all, Dawkins is presenting Strong atheism, as you call it, as though it is a consequence of evolution.



's avatar #23690: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  02:09 PM
Experiments that prove the non-existence of god? Where do you get the idea that that is a point or premise of atheism?

I don't believe there is any such proof, or that there can be such a proof. All I'm interested in is whether there is any evidence to support a hypothesis...and there is none for god.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23691: — 05/02  at  02:11 PM
Well, arguments about what constitutes "moderate" Christianity are likely to lead nowhere useful, imo. "Moderate" is likely to be defined by each participant in reference to their own posture.

What I do find objectionable about Dawkins is his philosophically unfounded implication that scientific thinking somehow logically implies general atheism. It can do nothing of the sort. Even if we accept the use of the term "atheistic" to be a valid description of the methods of science, general atheism by a scientist or anyone else is a choice, not a necessary conclusion.

If atheism makes you happy and you want to share the good news, great. But if you claim that you have a scientific basis for doing so, you are blowing smoke.



's avatar #23692: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  02:18 PM
I do not make such a claim. I suggest instead that those people who believe otherwise clearly lack any scientific basis for doing so.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23693: — 05/02  at  02:28 PM
PZM-

That's nice that you don't do it. The point that is being lost though is that Dawkins actively abuses his role as a scientist and (gifted) popularizer of science to effectively preach his personal distaste for religion and smears the whole of science, particularly evolutionary biology, by doing so.

Shaggy



#23694: — 05/02  at  02:31 PM
'Even if we accept the use of the term "atheistic" to be a valid description of the methods of science, general atheism by a scientist or anyone else is a choice, not a necessary conclusion.'

Oh really? What other conclusion can you reach based on the evidence? And more importantly what contrary evidence is there?


'If atheism makes you happy and you want to share the good news, great. But if you claim that you have a scientific basis for doing so, you are blowing smoke'

How is it blowing smoke for claiming the scientific method relies on evidence to prove out theories and doesn't require the supernatural. That by default precludes theism.
What is so tough about this for people? What is so scary?



#23695: — 05/02  at  02:33 PM
"Smears"? I think that the position of a scientist that believes his science supports his atheism (yes, even Strong Atheism) is at least as legitimate as the position of a scientist that believes his science supports his theism.

The fact that more scientists may be theists than atheists does not make their position intrinsically more "right".



#23696: — 05/02  at  02:38 PM
BS Shaggy! Dawkins uses his role to do exactly as he should---speak HIS mind. He speaks as a scientist, and a good one at that. If you don't like what he is saying, correct it for us. But to say he is abusing his post due to his personal distaste for religion is BULLSHIT!

He doesn't smear science, he stands for it's methods and importance. If people don't like it to bad, not enough scientists have his courage or strength of conviction. Even if I sometime disagree with him, I appreciate his candor.

If the superstitious people among us can't handle the frankness, well, to bad.



#23697: — 05/02  at  02:43 PM
'The fact that more scientists may be theists than atheists does not make their position intrinsically more "right'

I personally doubt this is true. At least in the 'normal' sense.



#23698: — 05/02  at  02:47 PM
Uber wrote: "Oh really? What other conclusion can you reach based on the evidence? And more importantly what contrary evidence is there?"

That you can conclude nothing about the existence or non-existence of g/God from the evidence is precisely the point. Saying otherwise is drawing a non-scientific conclusion from the evidence.

Chance - I like Dawkins' writing and also appreciate candor. It is simply my opinion that he abusively implies that his strong atheism has a scientific foundation. I'd be just as guilty if I claimed that my theism has a scientific basis.



's avatar #23699: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  02:49 PM
You misread me, Shaggy. I think Dawkins is saying perfectly appropriate, common sense things: religion does lack an empirical foundation and is anti-scientific. Scientists who make apologies for religion are the ones who are abusing their roles as scientists.

Read Dawkins carefully: nowhere does he claim that "god is disproven" or any such nonsense. He states that there is no evidence for it, and that it is reasonable to dismiss it as an unnecessary and unproductive hypothesis.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23700: *** Dave — 05/02  at  02:50 PM
I think you can have a discussion of how ridiculous it is to be teaching Intelligent Design in a science class, without going on to say that "religion is stupid."

Not to say that pointing out how ridiculous religion is isn't itself a worthwhile discussion point to make, but it distracts from the core point. It's like trying to argue about Social Security reform and throwing in zingers about how Bush is a war criminal over Iraq -- you may have a valid point, but not only is it only tangentially pertinent, it's going to turn off a number of folks might otherwise agree with you *about social security reform*.

Likewise, any number of "moderate Christians" who are willing to stand against ID are going to be less willing to stand *with* someone who tells them they're superstitious dolts.

Pick your battles.



#23701: — 05/02  at  02:50 PM
Emanuele Oriano:

We disagree. I study religion and that distinction is normative. It is also has the added advantage of being the meaning that is commonly understood quotidian English. That you use the adjective "Strong" indicates to me either an aquaintance with analytic philosophy and/or philosophy of religion, or a kind of specialized in-group technical term in use among atheists of an evangelical bent. Please note, I am in the history of religions/religious studies field a secular discipline which is based upon, in various admixtures, historical, philological, phenomenological methodologies (NB to my fellow pedants, I meant to write -ologies, rather than method, though that is also understood.)

But even were I to accept your definition, it is incorrect to say that it "fully fits science as well." Unless Newton, and so very many others, were not scientists.

PZ wrote:

Experiments that prove the non-existence of god? Where do you get the idea that that is a point or premise of atheism?

I don't believe there is any such proof, or that there can be such a proof. All I'm interested in is whether there is any evidence to support a hypothesis...and there is none for god.


I got it from you when you wrote: "Science is an atheistical endeavor." You have, foolishly I believe, inserted atheism into the very definiton of science. It no more belongs there than ID creationism belongs in a biology class. That is also why I put forth "nontheistic" as a descriptor because accurate and factual. You seem to be letting your polemic and all too understandable frustration at the morons who would have children learn lies get in the way of your reasoned arguments.



#23702: — 05/02  at  02:51 PM
Chance:

Please explain your strange statement.

What do you mean by 'normal' sense? Why the scare quotes?



's avatar #23703: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  02:51 PM
And yes, atheism has a stronger scientific foundation than theism. It at least does not violate that minimal precept against inventing elaborate hypotheses in the absence of evidence.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23704: — 05/02  at  02:52 PM
Emanuele -

I see your point about my use of the word "smear:. It was a poor choice. I could have better just said "implicates".

Shaggy



#23705: — 05/02  at  02:56 PM
Here we go again----------

'That you can conclude nothing about the existence or non-existence of g/God from the evidence is precisely the point. Saying otherwise is drawing a non-scientific conclusion from the evidence.'

Actually you can. There is no evidence, period. If you have no evidence for something, it doesn't disprove anything BUT it sure as heck doesn't give the basis for believing said proofless idea any veracity whatsoever AND certainly no veracity worthy of respect or a seat at the table of discussion.

Unless of course people who think aliens inhabit the planet,unicorns are among us, and the world is on a turtles back get a seat also.

It's madness.



#23706: — 05/02  at  02:57 PM
Barry:

We disagree. My definition of atheism is the atheists' own definition, and you can check it out at the following URL:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/faq1111.htm

I don't intend to accept the theistic definition of atheism; what atheists think and say is solely determined by what they think and say, not by any artificial definition .



#23708: — 05/02  at  03:01 PM
Emanuele Oriano:

I wrote "normative" and not "normal." Normative meaning it is a word which has a commonly accepted definition in the fields of study known as history of religions and religious studies. I did not intend deprecation in the use of quotes - so don't be frightened wink I used quotes simply to highlight the term in question just as I did with "normative" in the first sentence. I probably should have used italics so as not to be misunderstood. But then that would meaning typing additional (and annoying to type < > characters.)

PZ: You are confusing philosophy with science.



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