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Monday, May 02, 2005

Quit being such a wimp, Ruse

Quite a few people have mentioned the article by Michael Ruse in the Boston Globe to me. I've been slow to respond because this is the last week of classes, and hoo boy do I have a pile of grading to do. I also knew that if I dawdled someone would come along and do the heavy lifting for me.

So I could just announce that Ophelia has it exactly right, and stop right there. I have a weblog, though, so I've got to babble on a bit.

Ruse's argument is that we've got to avoid antagonizing the decent, moderate Christians if we want to make headway in the evolution wars. He thinks scientists who are atheists ought to be more cautious and politic in their comments about religion (which is quite the odd thing to hear from Ruse, who has a bit of a reputation for making statements that evolutionists have to disavow, and for collaborating with creationists).

Ruse, a self-identified agnostic, acknowledges the "thrilling quality" of Dawkins's writing but says he objects to adamantly anti-religion statements coming from a scientist. "I don't have any more belief than Dawkins," he says. "But I do think it matters that he is making it very difficult for those of us who care about evolution to put forward a reasonable face to the reasonable portion [of the public] in the middle."

This is a peculiar position he has taken. Is the "reasonable portion" of the public antagonized by the existence of atheists, or at the idea that we might speak up? Do we have to die or emigrate, or is it sufficient if we're just very, very quiet about our upsetting beliefs? Should we keep mum about any other ideas we might have that might possibly irritate the prejudices of the lay public?

Perhaps we have a different idea of what constitutes a "reasonable" Christian. I grew up in a whole family of them: a father who was brought up in the Church of Christ and gave it up for a kind of casual agnosticism, and a mother who was nominally Lutheran. We had Catholics and atheists and Baptists and Mormons and a few members of some weird cultie evangelical thing all mingled together in the big extended family; you know, America, where religious pluralism is supposed to be a fact of life. Half of them thought nine-tenths of the others were all going to Hell, but that didn't stop us from all liking each other and still inviting everyone to Thanksgiving diner.

Somehow, though, people have gotten this idea that the moderate, reasonable mass of Christians consists of people who will spit in the eye of an atheist and turn up their nose at anyone who follows a different sect. Ix-nay on the odlessness-gay, we mustn't inflame the mob—good American Christians despise those people.

That attitude is what's wrong, though. Such people aren't moderate, or reasonable, and we shouldn't be catering to their bigotry. Many scientists happen to be atheists, and that should be no more shameful or hidden than the fact that a few cousins on my father's side are LDS. My family hasn't disowned me because I'm an outspoken atheist, because they're good people who see beyond sectarian dogma—let's trust in those kinds of religious people who don't judge people by the god (or lack thereof) that they worship (or don't). Those poor Christians who think otherwise are the ones who should be ashamed and who should be discouraged from promoting the idea that intolerance and fear is a necessary component of religious belief.

Let's also promote common sense. Science is an atheistical endeavor; we don't invoke gods or pray for specific results in our work, and that's the way it should be. Many of us also take that attitude into our private lives away from the lab, and that's also reasonable, as is the fact that others are willing to set aside scientific thinking in other parts of their life. I think it's just as much a sensible matter that scientists don't use religion in their work as it is for other occupations. Who wants to hire a carpenter who relies on prayer to keep his constructions standing? Or a plumber who trusts in faith when he's knocking holes in your walls? How about an electrician who believes God will keep his work from shorting out and burning your house down? In the same vein, I don't trust a scientist who tries to solve problems by invoking invisible, intangible, omnipotent beings who hide in the blank spaces of our knowledge.

Godlessness is a good thing, a pragmatic thing, and most of the religious people in this country (I hope) recognize its value in part of their lives, if not the whole. I say we should build on that rather than squeaking in embarrassment when cranky ol' Richard Dawkins expresses his opinions forcefully.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2237/D6TZ74Ss/

Comments:
#23709: — 05/02  at  03:02 PM
'What do you mean by 'normal' sense? Why the scare quotes? '


Many scientists are pantheists, or deists. Many more are liberal Christians,muslims, etc whose faith is little like that of fundies, or even moderates.

Many, many more are closeted atheists or agnostics. Of course this is just my subjective opinion fter being around science and it's worker bees for several decades.

And I disagree with Dave, coddling people who have no basis for what they say just empowers them. Yes they may hate what you say, may even turn you off, but being quiet in these times gets more trouble handed to the nation.



#23710: — 05/02  at  03:04 PM
PZM wrote:

"He (Dawkins) states that there is no evidence for it, and that it is reasonable to dismiss it as an unnecessary and unproductive hypothesis."

The problem is there can be no qualifying scientific evidence for it so it is simply a non-scientific question to begin with. Saying there is no evidence implies that it was a ever a scientifically valid hypothesis in the first place - therein is the abuse of science.



#23712: — 05/02  at  03:04 PM
I don't think PZ is the one confused.



's avatar #23713: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  03:05 PM
No. As Emanuele was saying, atheism is the absence of god-belief. When we work in the lab, that is the position we take, that there aren't any magical forces at work and that we are going to address material, natural mechanisms. That is a thoroughly atheistic position.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Trackback: On Ruse Tracked on: Sceadugenga (72.9.234.70) at 2005 05 02 15:21:59
If people like Behe and Dembski can only interpret our arguments as status attacks and not logical arguments, what can we do?



#23716: — 05/02  at  03:24 PM
Emanuele Oriano —I don't intend to accept the theistic definition of atheism; what atheists think and say is solely determined by what they think and say, not by any artificial definition .

Sorry to rain on your crusade parade, but I gave no such "theistic definition" of atheism. I simply used according to the academic disciplines of history of religions and religious studies*which also aligns closely with the everyday common English usage of the word. There is nothing artificial about it. You seem to be asserting something more along the lines of:

When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.


The page you linked is pure evangelism. Please show me a citiation from the philosophy of religion. I'll still maintain my position, and any philosopher of religion would understand since she would be familiar with the common occurence of a term having a technical definition in one field can have a differing meaning in another field even if the two fields are seen as being somewhat reated.

I intend no disrespect, but I'm begining to get the feeling I used to get when I used to get into arguments with Objectivists back in the day.


*Religious studies and history of religions are modern academic, scholarly disciplines that have their r oots in the same milieu in which Darwin studied, observed, wrote, and thought. They are scientific disciplines, provided one understands by that something akin to the German wissenschaft, i.e. a rigorous discipline, and not Popper's strict sense. Also note I don't go around muddying the waters in using the appellation "science" to describe those and similar fields unless I make clear the distinction.



#23717: Rana — 05/02  at  03:38 PM
From a purely linguistic standpoint, I don't understand the distinction between "nontheist" and "atheist."

Last time I checked, "a-" is an acceptable prefix for words that have the same meaning as ones with "non-": asexual, amoral, atheist, that is, without sex, without morals, without god. It's not a negative prefix; it's a neutral one, indicating absence, not antagonism.

Are you perhaps confusing "a-" with "anti-"?



#23718: — 05/02  at  03:42 PM
PZ:
No. As Emanuele was saying, atheism is the absence of god-belief.

Wrong again. "Atheism," stricto sensu is the belief in the non-existence a deity or deities. "Nontheism" is the correct term to designate the absence of beilef in a deity or deities.

These definitons are commonly understood in everyday English and are normative in the academic disciplines whose field of study is religion. Why you want to assert this idiosyncratic, and yes, Evangelical Atheist definition is beyond me. I detect a whiff of the kind of self-righteous indignation that is a stench among the Fundamentalists and their ilk. And something fainter underlying, that smacks of in-group thinking and is distinctly cult-like. It's not a pretty scent. And I like it even less when I smell it from some of the most rational of the "reality-based community." Though I do know it to be a most intoxicating and addicting brew.



#23720: — 05/02  at  03:56 PM
Rana:

Because language is diachronic as well as synchronic. It has a history. It's organic (hold your fire PZ) not strictly mathematical or logical. And if you examine the historical etymology of the term "atheism" you will find it, from the very beginning of its appearance in the language, to designate the belief in the absence of God or gods, not the absence of the belief in such which, quite frankly, is a very recent historical phenomenon. The word has continued to have that primary meaning in common everyday usage as well as being adopted as a technical term in those academica disciplines which have the object of their study as religion.

This is just silly. You people are supposed to be scientists. Now we've gone from dabbling in analytic philosophy to playing word games. Historians, philologists, and phenomenologists are part of the reality-based community too, you know.



#23721: — 05/02  at  04:08 PM
Barry:

I don't accept the definition of "atheism" you gave because that is not what atheists think and say. I really don't see what the big deal is.

If "atheism" does not describe what atheists think and say, then you can continue using it in your academic discipline; but it is the pinnacle of arrogance to come to me or anyone else and state bluntly "what you think does not matter; what matters is the scientific definition of atheism, so there!".

I must have missed all those Sunday School classes for atheists held at the local Atheist Congregation; maybe you can point me to one, so I can make up for the time I lost carefully thinking through this argument and studying the history of atheism?

That page was a FAQ for the real world atheism; you can visit the pages for American Atheists, the British Humanist Society or UAAR (Italy's Union of Atheists, Agnostics and Rationalists) and find out just how disconnected from reality your definition is.

I'll end by noting that I have yet to meet any atheist that subscribes to that supposedly scientific definition. Do you keep those Evangelical Atheists in cages, or what?



's avatar #23722: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  04:26 PM
Atheism has multiple meanings. So what? The way I use it is very similar to the way Dawkins uses it: we don't believe in gods, we see no evidence for them, and we think it is very silly to continue believing in them.

And that is very much a scientific way of thinking. It requires a suspension of scientific discipline (which is not necessarily a bad thing) to accept the existence of gods. What Dawkins is advocating is turning the same skeptical, critical thought we are supposed to use in the lab on the institution of religion...whereupon it melts away into blithering vacuity.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23723: Rana — 05/02  at  04:28 PM
I'm not a scientist, and I never said I was.

Nor am I an atheist, however defined.

I was idly musing, not trying to engage in Deep And Profound Debate About The Historicity of Language.

Sheesh.



#23724: — 05/02  at  04:33 PM
Atheism has a history you know. And, like it or not, that history is inextricably intertwined with the history of theism-since we seem to be assuming a Western milieu, with Christianity. And that's as hard and cold a fact as evolution. It's a history you don't seem that well-aquainted with.

Language is a messy, complicated, history-bound thing. It would do well to note all Christian thinkers during various times were at all comfortable with that definition, instead asserting that it was another deity that was worshipped, e.g. Satan, Ba`al, etc.,

You write: ..it is the pinnacle of arrogance to come to me or anyone else and state bluntly "what you think does not matter; what matters is the scientific definition of atheism, so there!".

Really you do me far too much credit. From where I sit I see no sign of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, and the lot, nor do I see Pat Robertson, Dobson, etc, So if there is any truth to your assertion at all, I'd have to say that I'm stil in the foothills of arrogance, no? wink

Let's have another go at that and try this on for size: "...it is the pinnacle of arrogance to come to me or anyone else and state bluntly "what you think does not matter; what matters is the scientific definition of evolution, so there!" I can't really see any difference between what I just wrote and what you have asserted. I notice that you have not addressed the fact that my usage of the term is also in accordance with how it's used in the English language. But I guess it's arrogant to use dictionaries these days. It is an interesting and still open historical question when the atheism you ascribe too first became thinkable. But really now, I'm being arrogant? Humpty Dumpty indeed!



I'll end by noting that I have yet to meet any atheist that subscribes to that supposedly scientific definition. Do you keep those Evangelical Atheists in cages, or what?

No, not cages.

Web pages.

Like this one.



#23726: — 05/02  at  05:08 PM
PZ

What grounds do you stand on when you object to some creationist flavor-of-the-week nutjob egregiously misusing a technical term, like, oh say, "theory," in your field? I see no difference here. This is more of the same kind of Humpty Dumpty defense I decried above. Again I say that there is nothing scientific about it. You've gone off into philosophy. How would you fit that assertion into Popper's definition? This is something taken up by those who do philosophy of religion. And rightly so, though I have a personal distaste for it and I readily (and admittedly unfairly) characterize it as argument on the question of "Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?"

Remember Nietzsche's warning about those who would do battle with monsters.


Rana,

Apologies for assuming that you are a scientist. Think of it more as a general statement. I don't think I assumed you to be an atheist or anything at all with regard to such matters.




I was idly musing, not trying to engage in Deep And Profound Debate About The Historicity of Language.

Sheesh.



You made an erroneous assertion concerning a topic of some import at this time. It certainly seems to be taken quite seriously by the majority, if not all, of the commentors here. I objected in a reasoned manner and as etymology, the historicity of the term in question, is central to my argument I did what I thought necessary. What would you have me do instead?



Here's a Deep and Profound Linguistic tidbit:

The negatory prefix a- and cognates is very very ancient. It goes back to proto-Indo-European.



#23727: — 05/02  at  05:12 PM
Rana:

I forgot to add this:

I was idly musing, not trying to engage in Deep And Profound Debate About The Historicity of Language.

Sheesh.


Such a bizzare comment to come from one whose blog name is what it is.



#23728: — 05/02  at  05:33 PM
This is a very good topic, but I sometimes wonder if we are always talking past each other. I'm a happily out strong atheist (although "metaphysical naturalist" is my usual self label). That said I am also a very marshmallowy debater on the topic of faith (not, though, on pseudoscience and crap of that ilk). I tend to come out sounding a lot more like Karen Armstrong than Richard Dawkins, more soft hearted and mushy. And, although my philosophy is much more Dawkins, I also cringe when he shots from the hip. I'm in no way saying he's wrong, just that I think his rhetoric turns people off before they even consider what he has to say.

In debating creationism and atheism on line I've come to believe that the strongest weapon against evolution the creationists have is emotion. Sure, we win on reason and evidence and all the rest every time, but they can put together an appeal to emotion like nobody's business. They can manage to paint science as "atheist" rather than "theism neutral", and Dawkins' directness makes that easier for them (plus he has a habit of holding up science as anti-religion). See, if people are faced with a choice between science and faith they will chose faith almost every time. It's a false dilemma, but that doesn't matter if the creo's can paint the argument in that form. OK, not always a false dilemma, YECs are going to have a serious problem with modern science. But on the whole there is no reason faith and science cannot co-exist. And this should be our message. It's not a choice, a believer cna have both. Dawkins SEEMS to contravene that, and that plays into the ideologues on the right.



#23729: — 05/02  at  05:46 PM
Barry:

Any pretense of being scientific melts away like snow in summer when one begins by disregarding experimental data.

And, like it or not, for at least the past three centuries, most significant atheist thinkers have used definitions of atheism that resemble mine much more than they resemble yours.

Also, language use is shaped by majorities; I hope that we can at least agree that majorities, over a few centuries at elast, have been theistic.

Now for a linguistic note, this is what Merriam-Webster Online has to say about the definition of atheism.

1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
.

So, on the one hand atheism used to be synonimous of WICKEDNESS (should I regard myself as WICKED, Mr. Barry?); on the other, the definition of disbelief (proper atheism) comes before that of doctrine (Strong Atheism).

Who's ignoring dictionaries, Mr. Barry?

You can go back to your ivory tower and keep ignoring what real atheists think and say; but I'm afraid that is very poor science.



's avatar #23730: Virge — 05/02  at  06:11 PM
Emanuele,
Look up disbelief in that same dictionary to see how M-W define the term:

One entry found for disbelief.
Main Entry: dis·be·lief
Pronunciation: "dis-b&-'lEf
Function: noun
: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue


Disbelief is a strong word in that dictionary.


Despite the fact that atheists may want "atheism" to be more of a neutral term, almost all of the dictionaries we have define it as a rejection of the existence of god(s) rather than a rejection of the belief in god(s).

Since we value being able to communicate accurately and unambiguously, we do ourselves no favours by using terms that the majority (as perceived by our lexicographers) will misunderstand.



#23731: Rana — 05/02  at  06:15 PM
Such a bizzare comment to come from one whose blog name is what it is.

???

I don't understand what you are talking about. My blog has the name it has because I like both frogs, and ravens, and couldn't think of anything more interesting to name it. What does that have to do with anything being discussed here?

Oh, and if you're going to set yourself as Mr. Language Person, spellchecking is a good idea.



#23732: Rana — 05/02  at  06:24 PM
Oh, I see. You assumed that "palimpsest" is the name of my blog. Sorry, not. And it has that URL simply because blogs can be overwritten over time, and the word that came to mind after reading a book on the Anza Borrego Desert that described the desert as a palimpsest. Nothing more profound than that.

Your comment is still a pretty petty response to what I admitted was an idle comment. Why are you so vexed by this?



's avatar #23733: PZ Myers — 05/02  at  06:44 PM
It's not surprising. This is something atheists are accustomed to: other people telling us exactly what we believe, and refusing to accept our testimonials.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23739: — 05/02  at  07:42 PM
The question needs to be asked, how can you actually disbelieve something you honestly don't think is even there to believe in? It doesn't make sense. You can't say someone is disbelieving something they honestly don't think is there in the first place.

And then this..........
'But on the whole there is no reason faith and science cannot co-exist. And this should be our message. It's not a choice, a believer cna have both. '

You here this from time to time. How can faith by definition be compatible with science? Deism maybe, Christianity? How? Only by removing oneself from a scientific way of thinking does it become possible and that's not really having them both but subjgating one to the other.

Even if you manipulate yourself to include evolution into your belief structure how does resurrection of dead men, miracles,flying humans sans planes, and on and on fit with science. Answer it doesn't outside wishful thinking.



#23743: — 05/02  at  08:44 PM
Uber writes:

<The question needs to be asked, how can you actually disbelieve something you honestly don't think is even there to believe in?

Uber, this is a good point, and this confusion is the result of a semantic muddiness swirling around the words "belief" and "faith" and related terms.

Sometimes, "believe" means "hold true at an involuntary level, based on perceived evidence". And other times it means "profess and act upon a system of adopted values and facts based on having chosen that particular system, IN SPITE OF HAVING NO PERCEIVED EVIDENCE."

I would add, relevant to my second definition above of the word "believe", that some religions (notably Christianity) actually prize adherence to a belief system in the absence of evidence. There's a whole passage in the New Testament somewhere about how blessed you are if you believe without having seen evidence. And that cuts to the heart of the matter: to "believe" or "disbelieve" something, in the context of this weird Christian worldview, has nothing to do with processing evidence, and in fact is proud of not having processed any such evidence. So that is how one can "disbelieve" in something one does not think exists: because one refuses to adhere to that system of belief.

Sorry this is so convoluted, but I think those people who want us to tread lightly around the religious should realize that the religious in many cases have chosen an anti-evidence outlook, one that is fundamentally incompatible with the scientific method of formulating hypotheses, testing them, and arriving at a theory.



's avatar #23744: Virge — 05/02  at  09:08 PM
PZ wrote:
It's not surprising. This is something atheists are accustomed to: other people telling us exactly what we believe, and refusing to accept our testimonials.

I disagree, PZ. In this case, it has nothing to do with what they say you believe, and everything to do with the common usage of a word. If atheists, when talking with athiests, understand each other, that's wonderful. If atheists can persuade the rest of the population to change their understanding of a particular word, I'll be very surprised. (Particularly since the etymology of the word is a- + theos = "no god", as distinct from "no belief in god.")

Check a number of dictionaries. Really. Actually go and check. Lexicographers do not try to mandate or maintain the particular meanings of words. They try to keep their dictionaries in line with current common usage. You can rail about the fact that the common understanding of atheism doesn't match how you use the word, but it doesn't help you to communicate the concepts you want to communicate to a wider audience.

Think also about the word theory. This word is clearly ambiguous. At least with this word, all the dictionaries show multiple meanings for it. The non scientist, lacking a grasp of the scientific meaning of the word will think of it as speculation, a tentative explanation. We can keep using the word within the world of science, but we delude ourselves if we think that more than 50% of the broader population will understand it as we do.

[aside: The creationist spin-doctors should know and understand the way they misuse the term, but they probably see their misuse of ambiguity as fully justified, since they sincerely think evolution really is still an unfounded speculation. It's only when they quote-mine a respected scientist to exploit the ambiguity of definition that they are being clearly dishonest.]

English is pragmatic, not idealistic.
If our language distorts our message because the recipients' decoders don't match our encoder, then whose problem is it?



#23746: — 05/02  at  09:36 PM
"Even if you manipulate yourself to include evolution into your belief structure how does resurrection of dead men, miracles,flying humans sans planes, and on and on fit with science. Answer it doesn't outside wishful thinking."

But I think there's a whole lot of people who consider themselves both religious and pro-science. There's a lot of "cafeteria Catholics" that go to church every Sunday, say their prayers, get their kids baptized, etc. etc., yet they pick-and-choose which doctrines to observe. Rank and file Catholics in the US, for example, are split on birth control. They are not sheep -- they think for themselves. Many believe in evolution.

Such religious people are common. Yes, you can mock them for being hypocrits, for not being the devout Catholics (or Southern Baptists, or whatever) they think themselves as being, for engaging in "wishful thinking." You can call them delusional, contradictory, weakminded, and other names, and maybe you'd have a good point to make.

But those same people are the ones who ultimately vote for school board members. These are the ones viewing news magazines that occassionally profile the ID/evolution debate. To the extent they even know the ID movement is out there, they're ripe for learning what a load of shit it is and how it could hurt their kids chances of learning about real science. Although perhaps illogical to many of you, these are people that are able to separate science from religion, and they like it that way.

But if ripping religion and mocking people of faith becomes a talking point in this debate, those cafeteria Catholics will be lost. Those necessary allies will be reluctant to align with what they consider the intolerant atheists (or whatever goddammed word you want to use) speaking for scientists. Not too many people would happily align themselves with people who call them names. (Perhaps this is emotional, illogical, and stupid on their part, but it is an observed behavior, generally speaking.) The IDers purposely refrain from Bible talk in this debate, even though most (all?) IDers are religious extremists, precisely to win over this constituency.

People can denounce religion (and the religious) to their hearts' content. But in the specific context of the ID/evolution debate, such mocking will only hurt science.

Again, I realize many here are having a broader religion vs science debate. I'm writing ONLY with regards to the public debate over ID/evolution.



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