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Monday, May 02, 2005

Quit being such a wimp, Ruse

Quite a few people have mentioned the article by Michael Ruse in the Boston Globe to me. I've been slow to respond because this is the last week of classes, and hoo boy do I have a pile of grading to do. I also knew that if I dawdled someone would come along and do the heavy lifting for me.

So I could just announce that Ophelia has it exactly right, and stop right there. I have a weblog, though, so I've got to babble on a bit.

Ruse's argument is that we've got to avoid antagonizing the decent, moderate Christians if we want to make headway in the evolution wars. He thinks scientists who are atheists ought to be more cautious and politic in their comments about religion (which is quite the odd thing to hear from Ruse, who has a bit of a reputation for making statements that evolutionists have to disavow, and for collaborating with creationists).

Ruse, a self-identified agnostic, acknowledges the "thrilling quality" of Dawkins's writing but says he objects to adamantly anti-religion statements coming from a scientist. "I don't have any more belief than Dawkins," he says. "But I do think it matters that he is making it very difficult for those of us who care about evolution to put forward a reasonable face to the reasonable portion [of the public] in the middle."

This is a peculiar position he has taken. Is the "reasonable portion" of the public antagonized by the existence of atheists, or at the idea that we might speak up? Do we have to die or emigrate, or is it sufficient if we're just very, very quiet about our upsetting beliefs? Should we keep mum about any other ideas we might have that might possibly irritate the prejudices of the lay public?

Perhaps we have a different idea of what constitutes a "reasonable" Christian. I grew up in a whole family of them: a father who was brought up in the Church of Christ and gave it up for a kind of casual agnosticism, and a mother who was nominally Lutheran. We had Catholics and atheists and Baptists and Mormons and a few members of some weird cultie evangelical thing all mingled together in the big extended family; you know, America, where religious pluralism is supposed to be a fact of life. Half of them thought nine-tenths of the others were all going to Hell, but that didn't stop us from all liking each other and still inviting everyone to Thanksgiving diner.

Somehow, though, people have gotten this idea that the moderate, reasonable mass of Christians consists of people who will spit in the eye of an atheist and turn up their nose at anyone who follows a different sect. Ix-nay on the odlessness-gay, we mustn't inflame the mob—good American Christians despise those people.

That attitude is what's wrong, though. Such people aren't moderate, or reasonable, and we shouldn't be catering to their bigotry. Many scientists happen to be atheists, and that should be no more shameful or hidden than the fact that a few cousins on my father's side are LDS. My family hasn't disowned me because I'm an outspoken atheist, because they're good people who see beyond sectarian dogma—let's trust in those kinds of religious people who don't judge people by the god (or lack thereof) that they worship (or don't). Those poor Christians who think otherwise are the ones who should be ashamed and who should be discouraged from promoting the idea that intolerance and fear is a necessary component of religious belief.

Let's also promote common sense. Science is an atheistical endeavor; we don't invoke gods or pray for specific results in our work, and that's the way it should be. Many of us also take that attitude into our private lives away from the lab, and that's also reasonable, as is the fact that others are willing to set aside scientific thinking in other parts of their life. I think it's just as much a sensible matter that scientists don't use religion in their work as it is for other occupations. Who wants to hire a carpenter who relies on prayer to keep his constructions standing? Or a plumber who trusts in faith when he's knocking holes in your walls? How about an electrician who believes God will keep his work from shorting out and burning your house down? In the same vein, I don't trust a scientist who tries to solve problems by invoking invisible, intangible, omnipotent beings who hide in the blank spaces of our knowledge.

Godlessness is a good thing, a pragmatic thing, and most of the religious people in this country (I hope) recognize its value in part of their lives, if not the whole. I say we should build on that rather than squeaking in embarrassment when cranky ol' Richard Dawkins expresses his opinions forcefully.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2237/v2GLicyM/

Comments:
#23754: — 05/02  at  11:41 PM
G-Do opens the steel door

"Hey gang, it's a semantics thread!"

"Oh!"

"That explains all the shooting!"

"Come back downstairs, we'll play cards until it's over."

Exeunt

Also...

Hey Barron!

GOOOOOO MARSHMALLOWS!

::gives Barron a soft, semisweet chewy high-five::



#23755: Pete — 05/02  at  11:49 PM
Jim - I agree with you that the issue of tactically effective public behavior is a separate question -- and much more interesting than this incredibly boring conversation people keep continuing for some reason about what the word "atheism" really means (I have a suggestion: if a word's confusing to someone, stop using it and just describe what you believe, using different words! Example: I, Pete, believe and endorse the proposition "there does not exist any X, such that X is a deity". Do you have any confusion about what I believe? And we didn't have to go to a dictionary or review our Greek.)

But, when you say "...in the specific context of the ID/evolution debate, such mocking will only hurt science", you're getting a bit ahead of what we actually know, as is Ruse. Perhaps it will, and perhaps it won't - who really knows? Maybe the "rank-and-file Catholics" could use a bit of urging towards atheism, and holding up to them the mirror of their own inconsistency will help things overall. I've said it before - yes, Catholics have to believe certain things, but no person has to be a Catholic, or any religion. No one should receive special dispensation saving them from critical diatribes because of what religion they "are".

Everyone seems to have strong feelings about what's the best thing to do, argue vehemently or be conciliatory and respectful -- which is very strange, since I know of no data that has demonstrated one tactic to be better. How can anyone, Ruse or otherwise, claim to have any authority on the question of whether outspoken criticism of religion is an effective tactic or not, in terms of increasing the proportion of people who understand and accept evolution?



#23767: — 05/03  at  07:04 AM
Final note from here.

Nobody - but nobody - calls him/herself a "nontheist". If this doesn't show you that the artificial definition - made up by theists, not atheists - does not capture reality, I don't know what can.

The Greek alfa means subtraction, as in "lack of", not opposition; but this is merely semantic dance.

In reality, people who don't believe in gods call themselves "atheists"; and this is the only thing that matters. If the vast mass of theists have a knee-jerk reaction to this word, and wish to artificially restrict it to the position of Strong Atheism, that indicates merely one thing: arrogance (motivated in no small part by bigotry).

Not that this is new to me; but still, it sounds so ridiculous (in an unfunny way) that people who would probably read Marxist books to find out what Marxism means, and consult Objectivist authors to find out what Objectivists claim, and study Cubist artwork to find out what Cubism was, would deny atheists the same elementary courtesy.



#23771: — 05/03  at  07:58 AM
Pete,
People of faith are not motivated by or influenced by empirical evidence or logic. They just believe, period. (Hence use of the word "faith.") With rare exception, there's literally nothing that's going to make them turn their backs on their religion.

Therefore, I think it's disingenuous to act as if we just don't know how effective or ineffective it would be to conduct "critical diatribes" against religion. It won't work. It's ridiculous to think it's possible to change, on a broad scale, people's minds on religion (which has endured for pretty much all of human history) AND to then make them believe in evolution. It ain't gonna happen. That's why I think it's smartest to focus just on the evolution part when confronting the ID movement.



#23772: — 05/03  at  07:59 AM
I strongly disagree. Well, OK, bullshit. Science is a nontheistical endeavor. But it's not an atheistical one. Not unless you can show be some experiments which have proven the non-existence of God.


Many gods have been scientifically disproven. The god who created a flat Earth has been disproven. The god who made the entire Universe revolve around the Earth has been disproven. The god who cures sick people who are prayed for has been disproven (except in two recent prominent studies, one known to be fraudulent and the other under heavy suspicion).

No, science has not disproven all the various gods, especially the more useless and deistic ones; but that there are so many different gods, or ideas of what god is, is certainly not an argument in favor of the truth of the proposition.

I would suggest the word "secular" instead of atheistic to describe science. There is nothing in science to support the existence of gods, but so long as you do not let your faith-based beliefs interfere with the competent pursuit of knowledge, the scientific enterprise does not care where you spend your sunday mornings.



#23773: — 05/03  at  08:02 AM
"holding up to them the mirror of their own inconsistency will help things overall."

For all we know, it might encourage them to be more consistent Catholics and less open to science.



#23774: — 05/03  at  08:04 AM
I find it almost amusing that this thread has been hijacked in the way it has. Ruse apparently believes that atheists should keep quiet about their atheism to avoid offending the godly. Many of the commenters appear to believe that theists should do just the opposite, to the extent of actually defining 'atheism' for atheists.



#23775: — 05/03  at  08:11 AM
Here's Bertrand Russell describing how the common and philosophical definitions of "atheist" differ:

http://www.luminary.us/russell/atheist_agnostic.html

Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.



#23777: — 05/03  at  08:26 AM
Quite a few people have mentioned the article by Michael Ruse in the Boston Globe to me.


A technical point: that article in the Boston Globe was about Michael Ruse, not by him. The journalist of record was Peter Dizikes.



's avatar #23778: Ken Cope — 05/03  at  08:40 AM
Shorter Bertrand Russell: I disbelieve in only one more god than a monotheist does.

In that sense, most everybody we're trying to reach on our side of the naturalism divide has already rejected nearly as much religion as an atheist has.



's avatar #23779: Virge — 05/03  at  08:45 AM
DaveL wrote:
Many of the commenters appear to believe that theists should do just the opposite, to the extent of actually defining 'atheism' for atheists.


Believe me, I don't want to define atheism for the atheists. I'm talking about pragmatism in communication. I'm talking about making yourself understood. If atheists want to change the current dictionary definitions to make a broadly accepted distinction between 'atheist' and 'strong atheist', then a marketing campaign is what is needed.

I'm living in the reality-based community. I accept the fact that people don't always get the privilege of choosing what they want to be called, particularly when they take a word that has been traditionally used one way, adopt it for themselves, then complain that the old definition doesn't suit. *shrugs* That's life folks. Either start a campaign to educate the seething masses or use a different word.

I'm happy to apply the word atheist to myself, but I hesitate to apply it to science, because I don't think it communicates my meaning. It is begging to be misunderstood. Rather than suffer the problems of ambiguity and misunderstanding, I'd prefer to use "secular" (good suggestion, arcticpenguin).



's avatar #23781: PZ Myers — 05/03  at  08:53 AM
Secular is a fine word. Unfortunately, if we're going to let the faith-based community define our meanings for us, it too is anathema, and means pretty much the same thing as "atheism" to a great many.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #23786: Virge — 05/03  at  09:39 AM
PZ wrote:
Secular is a fine word. Unfortunately, if we're going to let the faith-based community define our meanings for us, it too is anathema, and means pretty much the same thing as "atheism" to a great many.


It doesn't yet have the fright factor of atheist even for the faith-based community. And, for the general nominally religious (non-fundamentalist) population it still means "not religious or spiritual in nature".

Of course, if we start using secular too much in association with things they fear, they'll overload it with new connotations, but that takes time.



's avatar #23788: PZ Myers — 05/03  at  09:53 AM
Too late. "Secular" is already one of the boogymen of the religious right.

Don't you know that Real Americans fight the scourge of fundamentalist secular liberalism? One charming quote from that link:

As an Orthodox Jew, I find secularism sinister and I find Christianity benign.


"Secular" starts with that sibilant, snaky "s", after all, so it must be sinister.

Oh, OK, one more:

The struggle in America is today between those who see a legitimate role for God and those who want to vigorously eject him from the village square. There are Jews on both sides of that debate and there are Gentiles on both sides of that debate. There's no question about it. And I think it's important to identify the fact, and Jay is certainly correct, that when you find Jews allying themselves with the American Civil Liberties Union and trying to perpetrate yet one more secular outrage on America, those are Jews who have long ago renounced the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and embraced a new faith, the faith of fundamentalist, secular liberalism.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23794: — 05/03  at  10:35 AM
"Secular" starts with that sibilant, snaky "s", after all, so it must be sinister.

True. 'Atheist' starts with "A", which is a good letter, one of my favorites, but not as forceful as some might like; not to mention the issue of multiple possible pronunciations for the "th" and "ei" (diphthong? Any German speakers in the house?).

For clarity and impact it's hard to beat godless. As an added advantage, the term can include both atheists and agnostics.



#23831: — 05/03  at  02:17 PM
I'll ignore much of the bullshit, strawmen, weak argumentation, ignoring of salient issues that I've raised, etc, since yesterday (I didn't realize this was an echo chamber, oh well, it's not the first time) and point out this post which I think is a dangerous capitulation to the extremist Christian fundamentalist anti-science crusade by some influential liberal bloggers. As with all due respect PZ, you know jack about religion but you do know a great deal about science and biology in particular So maybe you can go and set DHinMI straight on the difference between "beliefs" and "evidence" since he proposes using the phrase "scientific beliefs" in lieu of my suggestion "scientific evidence."

Rana, I fail to see how my response was at all petty. I think you're really reading something into it that wasn't there. Unless I was simply supposed to express more outrage at the latest outrage and this really is an echo chamber. That would kinda suck.


OH, the URL is here:

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2005/05/theocracy_is_ba.html



#23834: — 05/03  at  02:45 PM
Rana,

Oh, I see. You assumed that "palimpsest" is the name of my blog...Nothing more profound than that.<i>

Too bad. Because palimpsest is a pretty profound idea and a damned rich metaphor.


<i>Your comment is still a pretty petty response to what I admitted was an idle comment. Why are you so vexed by this?


I must have missed your <idle> comment tags on that initial post of yours. I'll have to see which version of HTML my browser uses. tongue laugh

And as for petty how's this:

Oh, and if you're going to set yourself as Mr. Language Person, spellchecking is a good idea.

Pot: Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

Mr. Language Person sez: it doesn't get much pettier on teh interwebs than to attack a person's spelling and ignore their arguments.


Sheesh, indeedy.



#23839: — 05/03  at  03:07 PM
A point of clarification:

I never said, meant to say, implied, nor meant to imply anything about any particular person's self-identification as an atheist, not here in this thread nor anywhere else. Rather, I took issue with PZ's description of science as atheistic. I stand by that objection for reasons that I have stated above. First and most importantly, because it is false. And secondarily because I think it's stupid politics (please remember- I'm on your side, really I am, see among other things comment #5 at the top of the thread.)

I really had no idea this would be such a sensitive identity-politics type of issue and I do not and have never questioned any person's own self-identification. I choose my words carefully so please read my comments with some care.



's avatar #23843: Ken Cope — 05/03  at  03:15 PM
Care to define theistic science, and how to tell whether Buddhist, Islamic, or Jewish science is the most efficacious?



's avatar #23845: PZ Myers — 05/03  at  03:18 PM
And I stand by my assertion. There is no theism in doing science. That makes science an atheistic enterprise.

Identity politics only comes into it because way too many people consider the suggestion that some activity does not require god to be a gross insult. As I've seen here and elsewhere, even a whiff of godlessness puts people into a frenzy of denial.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23850: — 05/03  at  03:46 PM
ٍٍPZ-

And I stand by my assertion. There is no theism in doing science. That makes science an nontheistic enterprise. God or gods or anything "supernatural" simply does not enter into it. Not one way or the other. To assert otherwise is to leave science and enter into philosophy and theology.

PS - the whole of a religious tradition is not comprised of its Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's as odious as they are. There is much that is truly sublime and transcendent. And I don't have to denigrate science to see it. On the contrary, I think science is itself sublime. You only show your own ignorance as to the fullness of a religious traditon in reducing it to such moralizing morons. It's bad enough that so much of this has been forgotten. Why do their work for them?



Identity politics only comes into it because way too many people consider the suggestion that some activity does not require god to be a gross insult. As I've seen here and elsewhere, even a whiff of godlessness puts people into a frenzy of denial.

I'm hardly one of those people. Again re-read the first paragraph of my comment above, #5. I don't think these people, either the Dobson's or the Amy Sullivan's of the world should be coddled.

Ken Cope- Go hunt for strawmen elsewhere. You might eschew firearms and bows and use a cluestick instead. I suggest you give yourself a couple of whacks in the head with it first.



's avatar #23852: Ken Cope — 05/03  at  03:57 PM
Barry Freed, you are welcome to go fuck yourself. You may need to email me to make sure we both mean the same thing by my employment of that phrase.



's avatar #23853: Ken Cope — 05/03  at  04:10 PM
Only somebody here to use language to obfuscate would argue with PZ's employment of the word "atheistic" to describe the scientific enterprise.

You are also guilty of slinging around the classic numbskull's accusation that anybody who eschews religion is is automatically ignorant on the topic.

I hardly feel compelled to take Lakoffian framing lessons from anybody who has people inclined to agree with him looking for blunt instruments after getting an earload.



's avatar #23858: Chris Clarke — 05/03  at  04:25 PM
You only show your own ignorance as to the fullness of a religious traditon in reducing it to such moralizing morons.


Whenever I see people making this argument, it's in complaining about people reacting to the theocrats.

I rarely see people who hold those views saying anything based on those views to attack the theocrats.

Your choice of target says a lot more about your belief system than your words do. You choose to give cover to the theocrats. I'm just fine with lumping you in with them, personally.

oh, and:

PS - the whole of a religious tradition is not comprised of its Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's as odious as they are.


Apostrophes are never used in plurals, and "comprise" does not mean what you think it does.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#23859: Pete — 05/03  at  04:35 PM
Jim E.: "It's ridiculous to think it's possible to change, on a broad scale, people's minds on religion (which has endured for pretty much all of human history) AND to then make them believe in evolution. It ain't gonna happen."

It has happened already: compare western Europe of 2005 with 1905. I think it can happen in the US too. As an argument, though, it won't do to just say "it's ridiculous", "it ain't gonna happen" -- my point is that you don't have any data you can show me that says one tactic is better than another. Okay, you can be of the opinion that it won't work, sure, and you've told me why you believe that, but I'm not sure how much confidence you should have in that opinion. Additionally, there's the idea that the truth will win out in the end, that if you believe something you ought to say it no matter what the consequences, etc. I don't know the answer here - you may be right, after all- but here's a link to a talk given by Douglas Adams, that might be food for thought. I agree with him that it's an arbitrary matter of convention that religion is not attacked the way other views can be, and I think this convention ought to change, and we are the ones who can change it.

..and are you guys really still arguing about whether "atheism" was a good choice of word to use? Well, don't worry, eventually one of you is bound to say "You were right, I was wrong". I've been on the intarwebs for a while now, and seen lots of arguments, so let me tell you, that is exactly what will happen.



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