Pharyngula

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Monday, May 02, 2005

Quit being such a wimp, Ruse

Quite a few people have mentioned the article by Michael Ruse in the Boston Globe to me. I've been slow to respond because this is the last week of classes, and hoo boy do I have a pile of grading to do. I also knew that if I dawdled someone would come along and do the heavy lifting for me.

So I could just announce that Ophelia has it exactly right, and stop right there. I have a weblog, though, so I've got to babble on a bit.

Ruse's argument is that we've got to avoid antagonizing the decent, moderate Christians if we want to make headway in the evolution wars. He thinks scientists who are atheists ought to be more cautious and politic in their comments about religion (which is quite the odd thing to hear from Ruse, who has a bit of a reputation for making statements that evolutionists have to disavow, and for collaborating with creationists).

Ruse, a self-identified agnostic, acknowledges the "thrilling quality" of Dawkins's writing but says he objects to adamantly anti-religion statements coming from a scientist. "I don't have any more belief than Dawkins," he says. "But I do think it matters that he is making it very difficult for those of us who care about evolution to put forward a reasonable face to the reasonable portion [of the public] in the middle."

This is a peculiar position he has taken. Is the "reasonable portion" of the public antagonized by the existence of atheists, or at the idea that we might speak up? Do we have to die or emigrate, or is it sufficient if we're just very, very quiet about our upsetting beliefs? Should we keep mum about any other ideas we might have that might possibly irritate the prejudices of the lay public?

Perhaps we have a different idea of what constitutes a "reasonable" Christian. I grew up in a whole family of them: a father who was brought up in the Church of Christ and gave it up for a kind of casual agnosticism, and a mother who was nominally Lutheran. We had Catholics and atheists and Baptists and Mormons and a few members of some weird cultie evangelical thing all mingled together in the big extended family; you know, America, where religious pluralism is supposed to be a fact of life. Half of them thought nine-tenths of the others were all going to Hell, but that didn't stop us from all liking each other and still inviting everyone to Thanksgiving diner.

Somehow, though, people have gotten this idea that the moderate, reasonable mass of Christians consists of people who will spit in the eye of an atheist and turn up their nose at anyone who follows a different sect. Ix-nay on the odlessness-gay, we mustn't inflame the mob—good American Christians despise those people.

That attitude is what's wrong, though. Such people aren't moderate, or reasonable, and we shouldn't be catering to their bigotry. Many scientists happen to be atheists, and that should be no more shameful or hidden than the fact that a few cousins on my father's side are LDS. My family hasn't disowned me because I'm an outspoken atheist, because they're good people who see beyond sectarian dogma—let's trust in those kinds of religious people who don't judge people by the god (or lack thereof) that they worship (or don't). Those poor Christians who think otherwise are the ones who should be ashamed and who should be discouraged from promoting the idea that intolerance and fear is a necessary component of religious belief.

Let's also promote common sense. Science is an atheistical endeavor; we don't invoke gods or pray for specific results in our work, and that's the way it should be. Many of us also take that attitude into our private lives away from the lab, and that's also reasonable, as is the fact that others are willing to set aside scientific thinking in other parts of their life. I think it's just as much a sensible matter that scientists don't use religion in their work as it is for other occupations. Who wants to hire a carpenter who relies on prayer to keep his constructions standing? Or a plumber who trusts in faith when he's knocking holes in your walls? How about an electrician who believes God will keep his work from shorting out and burning your house down? In the same vein, I don't trust a scientist who tries to solve problems by invoking invisible, intangible, omnipotent beings who hide in the blank spaces of our knowledge.

Godlessness is a good thing, a pragmatic thing, and most of the religious people in this country (I hope) recognize its value in part of their lives, if not the whole. I say we should build on that rather than squeaking in embarrassment when cranky ol' Richard Dawkins expresses his opinions forcefully.


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Comments:
#23860: Rana — 05/03  at  04:36 PM
Boy, Mr. Barry, you certainly are duplicitous. I said I made an idle comment, so why are you still acting as if it were anything but? And then saying it's hard to understand that? And why are you acting indignant that I don't seem interested in what you have to say about it?

I'd have thought that was clear: I made a comment in passing, a comment I said was an idle one (since you seem to need that repeated for you -- again) and I don't give a rats' about whether it can bear the weight of deep analysis. So if you want to spend time refuting it, go for it. Just don't claim that I'm ignoring your arguments. I don't care about your arguments, because I don't care all that much about my initial comment.

Then you misunderstood my blog name, and tried to score a point with it, and tried to act as if you were all knowing and stuff. That seems petty to me; that I was petty too doesn't change that, nor does it change the fact that continuing to nitter away about all this is also petty. (Whee! Look! I'm still being petty!) So, ball back to you.

I'm bored and have nothing else to do right now except surf blogs and clutter up PZ's comment thread (Look! I'm being honest!) -- what's your excuse? (Since you claim to be all serious and not petty and stuff.)



's avatar #23861: PZ Myers — 05/03  at  04:53 PM
I don't reduce all of religion to moralizing morons, but I don't ignore their existence, either. I also take exception to this:
There is much [in religion] that is truly sublime and transcendent.

No, there is not. Human beings achieve much that is sublime. Don't hand the credit to liars and frauds.

Religion is a bunch of muddled guesswork that has helped some people get through their lives a little easier, and has also caused much unnecessary pain. We can do better.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#23870: covington — 05/03  at  06:51 PM
"There is much [in religion] that is truly sublime and transcendent."

This is exactly where religion is a fraud. The fairy tales trigger what in a functioning mind is a reward for curiosity and learning... awe.

It's the same game as with good (hell, and even bad) novels... we can be emotionally moved by empathy for completely fictional characters, but we have empathy as an ability because it enables us to deal with others in the real world.



#23874: — 05/03  at  08:16 PM
Pete: "It has happened already: compare western Europe of 2005 with 1905. I think it can happen in the US too."

When I look who is in the White House, who is running the House of Representatives, who is running the Senate, some of the nuts on the divided Supreme Court, as well as various state legislatures, my concern is in the here and now. The ID movement is striking now, and must be defeated now. Being hopeful about the distant future is all well and good, but the ID crisis is currently upon us. Therefore, it is important to make nice with the non-fundamentalist, softly pro-evolution religious people (rather than mock them), and not worry about their faith.

As long as the teaching of evolution is left alone, who cares about people's religious beliefs? Well, you might still care and be irritated by people of faith (and want to make them non-believers), but that would be for reasons other than the ID-evolution debate.



's avatar #23879: Ken Cope — 05/03  at  10:12 PM
I fail to see how making nice with fundamentalists will accomplish anything positive. Those who know that evolution poses no challenge to their religious beliefs were never fundamentalists, and won't be swayed from science by learning that some Americans are atheists, or even Unitarians.

If you'll substitute the issue of creationism for slavery in this excerpt from Abraham Lincoln's Cooper Union Address, you'll see why I think such accomodation will be fruitless:

The question recurs, what will satisfy them? Simply this: We must not only let them alone, but we must somehow, convince them that we do let them alone. This, we know by experience, is no easy task. We have been so trying to convince them from the very beginning of our organization, but with no success. In all our platforms and speeches we have constantly protested our purpose to let them alone; but this has had no tendency to convince them. Alike unavailing to convince them, is the fact that they have never detected a man of us in any attempt to disturb them.

These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them? This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.



#23882: — 05/03  at  10:50 PM
Ken,
If you're responding to my comment, please note that I specifically do not say anyone should "make nice" with fundamentalists. I wrote that the pro-evolution crowd should make nice with people of faith who are NOT fundies (since the fundies are a lost cause).

Also (again assuming you were responding to me), I've never said that pro-science religious types would be swayed by the mere existence of atheists among scientists. They would, however, be less likely to actively support a cause (teaching evolution, not ID) that made a point of mocking and ridiculing them for being religious. It is my objection to this hostility and mocking of the religious that provides the context of my "make nice" comment.



#23893: — 05/04  at  01:58 AM
Barry Freed,

I have to say what strikes me as utterly laughable about the semantic quibble you are making viz the use of the word "atheistic" with regards to science is twofold.

Firstly, as you have had pointed out to you with varying degrees of politeness and exasperation is that "atheism" has several different meanings, as indeed do many words (this is related to the second laughable nonsense, which I shall come to in a moment). The Greek etymology of the word derives, as one correspondant correctly points out, from the prefix "a" denoting absence, lack or without, and the "theism" part derives from "theos" which (depending on the context in the original ancient Greek) denotes god, gods or belief in god.

Many people, atheist and theist and other (!), fully appreciate that one definition of the word "atheism" that is commonly used is precisely the same as the word you are using, nontheism, i.e. lacking god or gods or belief in god as opposed to the statement of god or gods not existing or the statement of belief that god or gods do not exist. It is in precisely this sense that PZ and others (myself included) are using the word "atheistic" to describe science, i.e. a process or body of knowledge which is explicitly lacks any reference to a deity, some deities or a belief in a deity.

The fact that several people have made it abundantly clear that they are using the word in this sense rather shows your quibble up as being more than a touch pathetic. The word incorporates this definition, and simply because it also incorporates other definitions (ones expressedly not used in this context) does not negate the correctness of its clearly defined usage in this manner. Also I noted in one of your previous posts you derided someone pointing out the difference between "strong atheism" and "weak atheism" by referring to a website as "pure evangelism". Hardly Barry, hardly.

It seems your quibble is nothing more than the fact that you are familiar with the word "atheism" being used in one context and with one meaning (the philosophy of religion) by one group of people, and thus you are unwilling to admit that the word is used in other contexts and with different meanings. Even then, my familiarity with the philosophy of religion is sufficient that I can remember instances where the word "atheism" has been used to denote weak atheism (i.e. the sense that PZ and others are using it) rather than strong atheism (the sense you are insisting it must be used). As with PZ's use of the word, the meaning used was expressed most clearly. Your obvious, and quite deliberate lack of comprehension and churlish insistence on the use of one specific defintion of a word when another, equally valid, definition is being expressedly used, is quite daft.

Secondly, language evolves. I really hope I didn't need to point that out to you. The word "gay" for example still means "happy and joyful" but it has other meanings too. These meanings are again context dependant, and can be expressed clearly (as did PZ with his use of "atheistic"). If I refer to someone as a "gay lad" I could mean that the chap in question is happy and joyful or homosexual. If you ask me to clarify my use of the word "gay" and which particular meaning I am using and I reply that it is the "happy and joyful" meaning as opposed to the homosexual meaning, the it is clear what is being said. For you to then insist that what I am saying is wrong because the chap in question is not homosexual and insist I use the word "unmiserable" in place of "gay", which is in essence what you are doing here, then you are frankly being rather pathetic. You've stuck your head out of your hole and had it gently whacked, it would behoove you greatly to pull your head back into your hole for a while and reflect on why that whack occurred rather than a) deny the correct use of a word because it doesn't conform to some narrow and arbitrary single definition you have decided on, and b) rudely deny all evidence that contradicts your point because you are either too prideful or stupid (lets hope it's the former) to realise your error, and c) refuse to accept that in the world of language words are tokens that have differing meanings dependant on context and even subtext, and as long as one is clear about that meaning and the word is being used correctly (as in this case) there is no cause for the pseudo-semantic bummery that you have reduced yourself to.

Evening.



#23894: — 05/04  at  02:28 AM
Surely the main point is to uphold the freedom and legitimacy of research in biological science and the public understanding of such science, which is not just valuable for its own sake, but also because it impacts a wide range of other issues and concerns: ecological, medical, demographic, economic, etc. In that sense, pursuing a dispute between the Darwinian paradigm of evolutionary theory, basic to most of biology, and religious beliefs is a distraction, since, while the former might transgress some more literalistic or archaic forms or tenets of the latter, it is not dispositive with respect to religious belief per se, but rather indifferent to it. And while atheists have a "perfect" right to express their (lack of) religious beliefs, that is not the ground upon which evolutionary theory is established. On the other hand, to say that religion is a purely imaginary invention, whereas science is based on evidence supporting its hypotheses is correct, but limited. Does one really want to say that science involves no imagination and invention, even if the senses of the words are somewhat shifted? And though religious belief, as any honest adherent would acknowledge, lacks external evidence, that is not the same as saying that it lacks any basis in human experience and the problems and conflicts that arise within it, which also effect unbelievers. But the fundamentalist attack on evolutionary theory really does not effect its status as science, since there is really nothing scientific about it, (as opposed to a confused conflation of belief with knowledge, which also occurs in the other direction), but rather amounts to an ultimately self-undermining political/ideological mobilization. Should we really want to re-enforce that polarization and confusion of issues by insisting, basically without warrant, on the dispositive "atheistic" nature of evolutionary theory, which is irrelevant to the explanatory aims it pursues, regardless of the personal conclusions one might wish to draw from its study, rather than explicating its achieved understandings based on the limited nature of its enterprise? The problem with religious fundamentalism is not that it's bad science, (since it doesn't even begin to approach such a thing), nor just that it's bad for science, (since science is not the only legitimate enterprise in which we are engaged and can not simply presume upon its "hegemonic" authority), but it's that it is BAD RELIGION. It's understandable that biological professionals don't quite make that argument, as it's outside their area of specialized competency. But if one excludes religious claims from rational consideration, at least as a cultural, not a biological, phenomenon, by overextending the scope of scientific ones, (which concern causal explanations and not human "freedom"), then one is incapacitated from making such a counter-argument and confronting fundamentalism, as it were, on its own turf.



#23896: Alon Levy — 05/04  at  04:42 AM
Let me jump into this thread with a question to those who support Ruse: what evidence is there that atheist outspokenness will make moderate theists support separation of church and state less? If previous civil rights movements are any indication, typically assertiveness on the part of civil rights leaders makes moderates aware of te problem, as in the cases of Betty Friedan and Martin Luther King. What turns off moderates is separatism, such as Malcolm X's black nationalism; however, atheist leaders in the United States are typically very moderate, with none of the cultural separatism employed by more radical black leaders in the 1960s or by radical feminists from the 1970s onward.



#23907: — 05/04  at  08:03 AM
Alon Levy,
I'm unsure how to respond to your post since I'm a little confused by it. In particular, I'm unclear how a reference to Martin Luther King, Jr., a religious leader who overtly linked the civil rights movement to Christianity, somehow bolsters your assertion about the success of "atheist outspokeness."

Also, I think comparing the ID-evolution debate to race or gender issues is dubious. But if you want to go down that road, I think making a campaign of mocking and degrading the religious (and trying to make them unbelievers) is an example of radicalism, not moderation.



's avatar #23922: Ken Cope — 05/04  at  11:06 AM
Jim E.,

I'm just not yet convinced that we have a problem with people of faith who are not fundies. I don't see atheists' views on religion alienating religious pro-science posters here, or talk.origins and other venues. Can atheists push fence-sitters away with more force than they are lured by a variety of religious belief that demands reality denial?

Frankly, I see the issue as one for the pro-science religious people to deal with, as they are being increasingly marginalized within their respective churches. What are they going to do about the fringe groups that have presumed to speak for them?



#23929: — 05/04  at  12:27 PM
Ken,
Perhaps you're right. I agree that the moderate religious people are the ones that need to do a better job speaking up. Still, I don't see how being overtly anti-religious does anything to help the cause. But I don't really disagree too much with your last post.



#23988: Alon Levy — 05/05  at  04:23 AM
I'm unsure how to respond to your post since I'm a little confused by it. In particular, I'm unclear how a reference to Martin Luther King, Jr., a religious leader who overtly linked the civil rights movement to Christianity, somehow bolsters your assertion about the success of "atheist outspokeness."

MLK's religion is a red herring. The important point is his race, and his vigorous insistence on equality of rights for blacks and on racial integration.

Also, I'm not comparing ID/evolution to race and gender. What I am comparing to race and gender is the debate about atheism in general and its place in the public sphere.



#24050: — 05/05  at  01:22 PM
It's pathetic that you continue to think MLK is a good example of "atheistic outspokeness." To call his religion "a red herring" is to ignore the history of MLK and the civil rights movement.

MLK was a minister who first gained prominence in helping lead the Montgomery bus boycott with meetings at his church. After that success, he helped to found the SCLC -- the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference (emphasis added). His talks and writings (like those of many others within the movement) were peppered with explicit references to religion and the Bible. While it is true that his striving for equality didn't solely rest on religious grounds, it is arrogant, as well as historically incorrect, for you to act as if religion was an insignificant part of MLK's influence and contribution. MLK was quite obviously an overtly religious leader. You have no idea what you're talking about.



#24053: — 05/05  at  01:24 PM
Clarification: "MLK was quite obviously a leader who was overtly religious."



#24124: Alon Levy — 05/06  at  02:58 AM
It's pathetic that you continue to think MLK is a good example of "atheistic outspokeness." To call his religion "a red herring" is to ignore the history of MLK and the civil rights movement.

Again, I'm not calling him an example of atheist outspokenness. I'm calling him an example of minority outspokenness, and seeking to apply his tactics to a different struggle for equal rights. Hammering on his religion is a distraction.



#24192: — 05/06  at  11:44 AM
Let me speak as a Christian who believes evolution. To those who like Dawkins "outspoken" approach, I find his anti-religious viewpoint repugnant, and it does NOT convince me to give up my religious beliefs. Those Christians who reject evolution, but still moderate, would view Dawkins as the Antichrist, plain & simple, and would certainly reject exposing their children to anything like that
That sort of militant atheism, or anti theism, or whatever you want to call, ain't gonna help the pro evolution side in the evolution -creation debate.

As for the definition of atheism , in the popular mind, an atheist is someone who rejects belief in God or who believes that God does not exist. That's the popular definition.
To regular folk, ,among the outstanding atheists of history are Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.They don't know Ingersoll, Hume, Russell, or even Dawkins.

Just keeping it real.



's avatar #24208: Ken Cope — 05/06  at  12:41 PM
I doubt that Dawkins imagines his anti-religious viewpoint will convince anybody to give up their religious beliefs, any more than typical antagonism toward atheism would bring him to Jesus.

The question is, does Dawkins' hostility toward religion incline you to dismiss evolution? If so, I'd think it never meant much to you in the first place.

Why is it controversial to say there is no scientific support for the claim that religion trumps science? Religion is a matter of faith, which science doesn't do.



's avatar #24253: Ken Cope — 05/06  at  07:38 PM
If Dawkins' atheism doesn't help, should we also worry about those who'll reject science because blue state liberals don't? Should we keep it to ourselves and claim to watch Fox News, lest we alienate anybody?



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