Pharyngula

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Saturday, December 04, 2004

Religiosity as a vehicle for nightmares

Here's a gambit sure to draw in lots of comments: The Rude Pundit asks people to submit Christian horror stories. When religion goes bad, it gets disgustingly rancid, so I'm sure he's getting a flood of juicy tales, with the usual insanity of bigotry and going-to-hell stories and lunatics babbling in tongues and dishonest proselytizing. So, inspired, I thought I'd share with you my horrible childhood experiences with the vicious Christians who drove me into atheism.

Only I haven't got any.

I actually have rather pleasant memories of church. I was brought up a Lutheran, and attended a small white plaster church in Kent, Washington, that was also attended by my great-grandparents, my grandparents, my mother (Dad was a bit of a heathen), and many other people of Scandinavian descent in the area. It was a calm and unpretentious place. We'd go to the service on Sunday morning, listen to an unmemorable sermon on some bible verse, sing a few hymns, and then I'd sometimes go to Sunday school, which was mostly more bible verses with a bit of arts&crafts. My parents were relaxed about it; if I didn't want to go some Sunday, it was no big deal. If you listen to Prairie Home Companion, you know what I'm talking about—most of the people attending were Minnesota transplants, and I grew up hearing that Minnesota sing-song accent and the vestiges of Scandihoovia, with "uff-da" and "nehmen" the usual bland cusswords.

I also sang in the church choir and was a regular altar boy. I went through confirmation classes, but gave up on them before finishing. My abandonment of religion was not a traumatic event; I'd never been a serious believer, and all that happened was that I started thinking about what the church was telling me, realized it was largely uninteresting, mostly untrue, and that pretending otherwise wasn't particularly honest of me, and I stopped going. My family was unperturbed, I had no regrets, and there weren't any hysterics from the church leadership (the pastor was a nice guy, and the choir director…she was a saint, an amazingly sincere and dedicated person.)

So now here I am, years later, apparently with a reputation as someone who hates Christians and Christianity. It's not true. I've got Christian family and friends, and while I think there is no rational reason to believe in religion, I am also well aware that we don't live our lives entirely in the realm of reason—I don't think less of a person for enjoying a morning spent singing and talking about moral values, any more than I damn myself for spending an evening now and then curled up with some SF novel. I think they'd be better off without the religious crap clogging up their brains, but I'm not going to lecture the average guy about it—I remember one teacher who moralized at me about the bad influence of comic books, and I think it would come off just like that.

But here's what I do despise: self-righteous religious dogmatists who use their bibles as clubs to oppress. Religion based on fear of hell and threats of damnation, with congregations full of schadenfreude. People so overwhelmed with the nonsense of their faith that they've lost all perspective, and have let it dictate politics and science and other aspects of reality. The godly who think their religion is a justification for dictating what other people should do, rather than what they themselves should do. People who think virtue is solely the provenance of faith, and assume that believing in Jesus is enough to make them good. Any religion that is used to argue in favor of killing people is simply evil. I can't abide the pathological religion that is dominating the politics and media of our country right now.

It is more than a threat to my preferred secular way of life. I think it is a betrayal of the worthy, balanced kind of religion in which I was brought up, and I am constantly dismayed at how rare it is for Christians to express their horror at the hijacking of their faith by the Falwells and Robertsons and other pious poseurs and intolerant haters of the far right wing. There has to be a recognition that religious extremism is despicable, and not something that we protect and rationalize because it's got the word "religion" in it.

Of course, one other worry I have now is that just as I was disillusioned and disappointed by the last election, maybe I've had it all wrong. Maybe those good people in the little white church of my childhood were all hateful bigots, quietly biding their time until the opportunity was ripe to rise up and slaughter the infidel. If that's so, don't tell me. I think I'd rather live in my little bubble of good-hearted, irrational unreality. Consider it a vestigial religious impulse.


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Comments:
#10246: Matt McIrvin — 12/04  at  11:24 AM
It's funny, because I seem to have gotten a reputation as one of the nice atheists, but I actually do have a memory of vicious Christians driving me into atheism, if only by proxy.

I wasn't raised religious; my parents were lapsed American Baptists who had soured on the whole deal (my dad had even considered becoming a minister, and quit when he realized he had to say things he didn't believe, such as that dancing was sinful). But they didn't try to raise me atheistic either; they wanted to expose me to the existence of religion and had even sent me to tiny tots' Sunday school when I was even younger, though I have no real memory of the experience and it apparently didn't work out.

When I was about five or six years old, for a period of a week or two, my best friend (who was going to Sunday school on a regular basis) suddenly became extremely scared of the Devil. Satan was following him around everywhere and was going to get him, like the boogeyman. He started doing little ritualistic things like scratching crosses in the dirt to keep the Devil away. I had little clue what a devil was and the whole thing started to freak me out.

I asked my mother what the Devil was and whether the Devil was real. She explained that some people believed in God and Devil stuff and other people didn't, but added that she had an extremely poor opinion of anyone who went around scaring little kids by telling them that the Devil was going to get them.

At that moment I became an exceedingly strident atheist.



#10247: Andrew Reeves — 12/04  at  11:50 AM
PZ, the "killed virus"* version of Christianity that you grew up with can compete with neither a faith that actively believes in a creator of the Universe who can and does tell people what to do or with a creed of pure hedonism. It's interesting to note that you have occasionally had chaplains from liberal branches of Christianity in prison ministries. When the prisoners find out that they're not going to get the message of guilt, redemption, grace, and the like, they often wind up going to a Muslim Imam or more fundamentalist Christian who *will* give them such a narrative.


I think that you seem to be missing that there are plenty of really decent people who because they are sincerely convinced that there is a God who has commands believe that the natural order of the universe demands that he be obeyed in all things. While there are people who believe in order to butress their own prejudices, you don't seem to be acknowledging that there are about three billion people in the world who are sincerely convinced that Allah or The Holy Trinity actually exist and must be followed.


*Not my coinage. I owe it to the rather brilliant <a href=http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll>James Nicoll.</a>



#10249: — 12/04  at  12:00 PM
Try growing up with people telling you that "you think too much" or that "nothing you do outside of God's work matters". I'm lucky my brain is only partially mush. At least Jehovah's Witnesses for the most part are apolitical and don't vote. They just bother you on Wednesday or Saturday mornings. Where other teenage boys might hide a Playboy under their bed, I hid Ned Colbert's books. Ah Childhood.



's avatar #10250: Chris Clarke — 12/04  at  12:07 PM
Carl, the world would be a far better place if people's brains were mush only to the degree that yours is.

PZ, this is a lovely post.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10252: — 12/04  at  02:14 PM
As an ex-Minnesotan ex-Missouri Synod Lutheran, I can only agree wholeheartedly. Well written post.



's avatar #10253: PZ Myers — 12/04  at  03:06 PM
I agree entirely that the "killed virus" (nice!) version of Christianity is what I like, and that it is being trampled by the more virulent forms; that's my point. Maybe what we ought to be doing is providing a more supportive environment for the innocuous forms of the religion plague, while at the same time vociferously combating the nastier strains.

We're not going to drag the Southern Baptists and Islamic Extremists out to be shot. That wouldn't work, for one thing, in addition to being antithetical to the spirit of open-minded tolerance. They aren't going to be converted to secular humanism, either, since us secular types aren't usually proselytizers, and it's a far jump from fundamentalism to agnosticism and atheism.

I think what we have to do is constantly point out that people like Falwell and Co. are just plain bad for the country and tolerance and reason and society. Ridicule the crap out of the nasty Religious Right, but at the same time, kick the more timid religious moderates into action. Atheism isn't going to replace right-wing fundagelical fanaticism…can we find and promote a rational substitute? That alternative is not going to come from me or my fanatically secular kind; I really want a moderate Christian to step forward and stand up for a kind of faith that I won't adopt, but will be able to live with.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#10255: Wayne — 12/04  at  04:31 PM
Here in Georgia my parents enforced my church attendance, always an onerous activity mostly because of the dress codes. They probably had second thoughts when I was caught throwing bibles at the preacher's kid in sunday school. Since then I've become more civilized. Fortunately they left it up to me when I turned 15 or so.

I emerged from a cocoon of unrelenting hostility toward religion some years back after watching acquaintances become embarrassingly aggressive toward theists. And of course having a few religious friends whom I dearly love helps carve distinctions. Nonetheless I retain the hostility toward fascist religous poseurs such as Falwell and Phelps.



#10256: teep — 12/04  at  05:04 PM
PZ, that could have been my life.

You wrote: I also sang in the church choir and was a regular altar boy.

I did altar-chick stuff and lector (because I can't sing for beans but I can read aloud with the best of 'em).

You wrote: I went through confirmation classes, but gave up on them before finishing.

That'd be me. Been there, done that. Lutheran, even!

You wrote: I started thinking about what the church was telling me, realized it was largely uninteresting, mostly untrue, and that pretending otherwise wasn’t particularly honest of me, and I stopped going.

At thirteen, I decided that saying I believe in God the Father... when I *didn't* believe any such thing was dishonest. I figured that my actions along those lines made a mockery of the people who *did* believe that... they were all for real, see, and I was just pretending. I argued the point that making me go to church was forcing me to a life of hypocrisy with my parents until they, not horribly religious themselves, left me to my godless heathen devices.

Unconfirmed and unclaimed by any faith, I fell into a life of thoughtless debauchery as so many of our nation's young people do... I believe they call it "college" these days.



#10257: — 12/04  at  05:04 PM
"We’re not going to drag the Southern Baptists and Islamic Extremists out to be shot."

Actually PZ, there's a lot more of them and they're the ones with all the guns!



#10258: teep — 12/04  at  05:14 PM
On a more serious note, from http://www.livejournal.com/users/which_chick/39459.html

"...Also, isn't gettin' along with others by way of a little quiet hypocrisy pert near all about what it means to be a Merkin? Lookit the whole religious freedom thing -- no way would that wash if everybody was as gung-ho as those folks flying planes into the WTC. People frequently have to peacefully tolerate ways and views that are different from their own, even though they don't agree with 'em. It's the Merkin way, the civilized way. Anything less would be uncivilized."

I, godless heathen (tm), can see this. I don't know why the more sane people-of-faith don't grasp the danger inherent in the virulent forms of their disease.



#10259: — 12/04  at  07:30 PM
I grew up in the United Church of Christ and Congregationalist traditions. My father is a minister. I spent a lot of time at church, and not just for services. We would go in with my dad while he was working and have free reign of all the church-school classrooms and the sanctuary. I was confirmed at 14. I really started to see the hypocrisy of the church from behind the scenes. My father was constantly being criticized for everything he did. If the church got new hymnals, half the church didn't like them--because they were too modern, or not modern enough, or didn't have a person's favorite hymn. My father was "too liberal" or "too conservative" or didn't focus on "the important stories in the bible." I thought it was absurd to listen to these people. All I could think was "You believe that this god you worship is creator of the universe and you are threatening to stop attending church because your favorite Easter hymn wasn't sung." I never felt strongly about the Christian god or faith, though I am pretty sure I believed in a god and in Jesus as that god's son. I went along with it largely because that was all I knew.

My mother's family is primarily Calvinist and I have had particular difficulty dealing with them on a personal level. Since becoming an atheist, I have gone along with saying the Lord's Prayer at dinners and occassionally attending church. I really didn't mind that much because I had been largely desensitized to it through my upbringing. I had memorized many of the little prayers and songs that had been sung. I lived with my grandfather for a few months and attended his Christian Reformed church, largely because it was impliedly expected of me (it was expected that I attend some Christian church; since I didn't believe in such things, it really didn't matter to me which one I attended). The church had petition drives for ballot referendums defining life as beginning at conception and defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. I started listening to the people of the church as they spoke for their various causes and was disgusted by them. I couldn't help but think that this was no longer some benign institution. These were self-righteous, sanctimonious people attempting to use the coercive power of the government to force their beliefs on others or deny certain groups of certain rights/privileges. One particular instance enraged me. The woman who was heading the petition drive for the anti-gay marriage amendment stood up before the church on Mother's Day and started crying as she read a Christian poem about how wonderful mothers/wives are. I just thought, "You self-righteous bitch." The same woman who would deny a group of people the right to marry and be parents was extolling the virtues of being a (Christian-heterosexual) mother and wife.

I really feel that I can no longer even respectfully participate in religion with my family and friends. While they may not all hate gays or want to utilize the government to impose their beliefs on people, I think they are largely complicit in its occurrence and help legitimize those that do utilize religion for such purposes. I feel as if I must not provide my assent in any form whatsoever. I will no longer act like I am praying with my family, and I will let them know that I am not praying with them. I will no longer attend religious services of any kind. They must be alerted to the fact that not everyone believes what they do, and that many of their beliefs are completely unacceptable to me. I am certain that many of them will not show my atheism the kind of respect that I show their religiosity.



's avatar #10260: Chris Clarke — 12/04  at  08:23 PM
This has been an interesting thread.

Ironically, I trace much of my own killed-virus atheism to being schooled by Catholic priests, and not because they provided cautionary examples. It was more like taking the critical thinking and intellectual inquiry espoused by the Jesuits and Piarists to their logical end. Probably not what they intended, but hey.

nlivings: the UCC,or at least part of it, is taking a fair amount of heat from homophobes at the moment.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10261: covington — 12/04  at  09:54 PM
I feel lucky I got through years as a catholic altar boy without a hitch in my stride.

Not a horror story, but the closest I ever came to a religious experience in a church was when I had a 103 degree fever with the flu and couldn't get anyone to cover me. It was a benediction, and I was kneeling next to the censur, thick cloying waves of incense wafting around my head. The sun was setting through the stained glass windows, and a beam of pure blood red light was singing through my retinas even with my eyes closed.

Next thing I knew I could hear the priest's voice "jim? Jim? are you ok?" and he was standing over me, the entire congregation murmuring and chattering. I'd passed out flat on my back.



#10262: — 12/04  at  09:58 PM
I discussed the banned advertisement with my dad this afternoon. He supports gay marriage and was disheartened when Michigan passed the constitutional amendment defining marriage between one man and one woman. Michigan's amendment was one of the most sweeping of the state initiatives, probably reaching civil unions and also affecting parental/adoption rights. I have no doubt that there are many religious people that are compassionate, tolerant, wonderful people. I worry, though, that many (but not all) of the "good" religious folks are more willing to tolerate the hate spewed by Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (or even less fundamentalist religious leaders) by understanding it as merely "a different interpretation." They are also more likely to be tolerant of, or completely unable to understand the contentioness of, school-prayer or decalogues and creches in public buildings/on public property. They are more likely to see these either as minor inconveniences to non-believers or unconnected to the larger conservative movement that seems to be gaining steam in this country.

I liked the sense of community in the churches I attended. I enjoyed the friendliness of the people and met some great people. It hurt me some to think that the friendliness and compassion that they showed me would have probably disappeared had they known I was an atheist. It is their tendency to demonize those that don't hold their beliefs that I see as a protest my unwillingness to engage, even if just out of respect for their beliefs, in their various religious practices. I really can't think of any other way to show them that, if they want respect for their beliefs, they are going to have to start showing those that don't hold their beliefs respect also. My family won't reject me (I think), so they are going to have to learn to tolerate me.



#10263: DarkSyde — 12/05  at  12:35 AM
It's not the religion that makes people dangerous, it's the ideology.



#10264: — 12/05  at  12:45 AM
i'm not sure what's the difference. if you have a liberal muslim who is tolerant of other people, vs if you have one who thinks that jews are lower life forms, and they both point to the koran, which represents religion, and which ideology?

All religions are abominations.



#10265: — 12/05  at  12:57 AM
Though I think there are worse religions than christianity to hate.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11576783%255E28737,00.html



#10266: — 12/05  at  01:08 AM
Or is that "better religions to hate?" Ah, you get my drift.



's avatar #10267: Ben — 12/05  at  02:19 AM
Wow, I had no idea so many of you had to shrug off religious upbringings. I'm lucky in that I either have a natural immunity to religion, or I was inoculated at a very young age. I remember laughing at my teacher's flawed theistic arguments in first grade. I think I kept getting sent out for being argumentative, but it was worth it. In retrospect, I should've called a lawyer. Yeah, right.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#10269: — 12/05  at  07:48 AM
For me, religion was never a big thing (but then, I feel that's quite true for a lot of Aussies) - I was christened, and received some tiny little book, "Bible Verses for Little People". I still have that - the art is beautiful, and it's almost a throwback to a time when religion was more about the message inside the story, like "Be nice to people, if you want them to be nice to you". Then, in primary school, I was selected to stand in front of the entire school and read some passages for an Easter service, solely because I was one of those 7 year olds who was reading at a high schoo level.

Then in high school, we'd have the occassional Easter service, and I started asking to be excused. This brought some consternation to my peers, who probably expected me to say something like I was Jewish/Muslim/*something*, rather than "I don't believe in the Christian model".

Most of my life I'd have said I was an agnostic - except a couple of years back, I started posting on a cryptozoology forum*, and they had to make a subforum for c vs e. discussions which would spill over (eg arguing over why Champ could not be a plesiosaur leading to Flood arguments). From there, I both started to really examine the arguments being put forward - but also started to see the sheer amounts of lies and idiocy being put forward by creationists to support their views.

So in a nutshell, creationists drove me *away* from God. It's rather amusing, in a sense.



*. Yes, yes, many will say "cryptozoology's a lot of crap", but asa scientist, I can't rule things out absolutely - that being said, I will happily write a long article explaining *why* _Meglania_ is extinct and any sightings of it are hoaxes, etc, in order to help teach people to be *critical*.



#10270: — 12/05  at  07:49 AM
Being from India I have seen many "practices" in the raw. I am Hindu. This is not the place to discuss what type of a belief system "Hinduism" is but in this vast assembly of cutom and ritual there's plenty that can put off the most earnest multi-culturalist. The biggest selling point for Christianity, and Islam in India has been the inequitous (and ghastly) practices within Hinduism. It is more important for Hindus to do good unto others and cause no harm to them rather than believe to the point of numbness of the divinity and prophethood of some entity. A Hindu has no problem in believing in the sacredness of other faiths but will accord no exclusive divinity to any entity - in other words nobody is going to Hell or Heaven because of a belief - it is actions that determine salvation. If only these beliefs guided the practice and lives of Hindus everyday we would have less strife.



#10298: Mrs Tilton — 12/06  at  10:11 AM
I agree that US Christians who are not batshit-crazy loons should be louder in opposing their brethren who are. But they're hardly silent altogether. (Those who think all Christians are either bigoted would-be theocrats or else cowed by the BW-BTs might be surprised to learn what line of work Barry Lynn, the head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is in.)

Part of the reason for the disparate volume levels might be analogous to the situation of the media in the US. Fox et al. bray loudly and aggressively; less openly-partisan outlets are so concerned for their nonpartisanness that they adopt the 'Opinions Differ on Whether Earth is Round' approach. That's not quite exactly what happens in the mainstream denominations, but it's not far off.

Also, moderate people don't generate much buzz. And moderate preachers don't get much media exposure. A spittle-flecked fundamentalist raver can bring in high ratings in a lot of media markets. A polite episcopalian would not.

Incidentally, my own view is that keeping the church out of politics is good not only for politics but for the church as well. One needn't be a Christian or accept Christianity to understand what Christianity sets out to be: and that is not a superficially-Jesusified American version of State Shinto.



#10300: — 12/06  at  11:36 AM
My experience of being baptized into the Church of England and seeing the religion up close for a while suggests that the C of E is an even more weakened virus than Minnesotan Lutheranism. Probably the best depiction of the C of E these days can be found by watching Eddie Izzard DVDs........



#10305: — 12/06  at  12:55 PM
Cake or Death?



's avatar #10306: Chris Clarke — 12/06  at  12:58 PM
Cake or Death?


I dunno, they both look so good. Could I have a little of each?

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



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