Pharyngula

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Thursday, January 27, 2005

Repenomamus was a flood victim? <snort!>

I wrote about Repenomamus giganticus, the Cretaceous mammal that dined on dinosaurs, a couple of weeks ago. It's cool, it's nifty, it's novel, but it doesn't shake up evolutionary biology—not that you'd know that if you read the creationist's take on Repenomamus. This is one of those articles that will have you laughing out loud as it plunges deeper and deeper into lunacy with every paragraph.

A recent fossil discovery in China has evolutionists scratching their heads over a mammal’s last meal.

The fossilized remains of a small dinosaur (psittacosaur) have been found in the belly of a dog-like mammal named Repenomamus robustus. Researchers have also found a second fossil that they have named Repenomamus giganticus. This second fossil has been described as "breathtaking" and "about the size of a modern dog."

So far, OK. Although no one was "scratching their head" over it.

This is a real surprise for evolutionists because evolutionary assumptions say that mammals living during the so-called "age of the dinosaurs" couldn’t possibly have been that big; rather, they had to be small to better avoid the huge reptiles. It has some evolutionary scientists quite concerned, for it challenges what they have believed for years.

Getting weirder. No, there is nothing in evolutionary biology that says mammals had to be small during the Cretaceous. Just as there is nothing in biology that says modern reptiles have to be small.

I can't imagine any scientists being challenged or concerned by this lovely fossil specimen.

But that won't stop Ryan McClay, who just keeps ramping up the hysteria.

While the discovery is a particular shock (from an evolutionary standpoint) because one part of the evolution model may need to be drastically changed,

What part of the evolution model must be drastically changed? There's nothing in this discovery that affects our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms at all.

it isn’t shocking for creationists. Creationists believe that man, mammals and dinosaurs originally lived at the same time.

Oh, right. Fred dined on bronto-burgers, while Wilma washed the dishes with a mammoth's trunk. I know what creationists believe. They're wrong.

The fossils of these mammals found in "Lower Cretaceous" rock helps confirm the creationist assertion that even some mammals were buried quickly in lower depths of the fossil record; mammals are usually found higher in the fossil record (i.e. many mammals and humans would have retreated to higher ground during the beginning of the global catastrophe of Noah’s Flood—see Where are all the human fossils?).

Um, guy? The fossil is 130 million years old. You don't get to jump up and down and get all excited because a scientific specimen violates your misconceptions about how evolution works, while ignoring the scientific data that says your 6000-year-old earth and world-wide flood are a bunch of bunkum.

One interesting thing about the article is that it is on a site called "The Conservative Voice", and most of the other articles are the usual wingnut nonsense. I almost gave in to my biases and figured this article was representative of conservative stupidity, but then I saw the comments: a bunch of people seem to be ripping into this dufus. Unless this wingnut site has been flooded with liberal critics, it may be there is some hope after all, that conservatives can also oppose the Genesis literalists.


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Comments:
#14471: corsair the rational pirate — 01/27  at  07:37 AM
Looks like you overloaded the servers over at theconservativevoice.com. I can't get on to see what tomfoolery and mouth-breathing stupidity is being advanced this time.

Despite being a semi-conservative, I like nothing better than to skewer idiots on their own stupidity, whatever their ideological bent.

And now I can't. I feel unfulfilled.



#14472: — 01/27  at  07:43 AM
Mammals reduced to lunch scrawny psittacosaurs with their revulsive jugal protrusions... You dont have to be creationist to feel that the discovery is shocking indeed! They could even catch psittacosis!



#14478: — 01/27  at  07:59 AM
I guess this is evidence that Noah was a slacker. If only he hadn't of taken that extra break, if only he had managed to stow away two of these on his boat, then maybe I could own a Repenomamus robustus today.



#14479: — 01/27  at  08:28 AM
Dont blame Noah. Repenomamus was no poodle. The teeth fit best with an active predator. This animal tore its prey apart and gulped it down in raw, bloody chunks.



#14480: — 01/27  at  08:42 AM
One more piece of evidence that creationists are (pick one) 1) idiots 2) morons 3) liars 4) delusional 5) desperate 6)all of the above.



's avatar #14481: Timageous — 01/27  at  08:54 AM
all of the above

" mammals are usually found higher in the fossil record (i.e. many mammals and humans would have retreated to higher ground during the beginning of the global catastrophe of Noah’s Flood"

So by this rationale, only lizards and birds should have died in the Dec.26 tsunami as mammals and humans would have instinctively fled for higher ground?

What is it specifically about stratigraphic provenience that creationists cannot get?

If its not instant, its not gratification.



#14482: — 01/27  at  08:57 AM
Here's an excerpt from another evolution-basher, a columnist for the Ottawa Citizen, dealing with Repenomamus. (The irony is that one this paper's founders, Elkanah Billings, is also known as the father of Canadian paleontology. He must be spinning in his grave now. )
At any rate, here's the excerpt:

"But as I say, no such discovery can endanger the "evolutionists", who are merely put to the (rather delightful and remunerative) trouble of rearranging the chart, to accommodate new, previously unimagined, family trees. It wouldn't necessarily bother the "Darwinists", theoretically, if the whole evolutionary sequence were turned upside down: for the "theory" doesn't predict anything. It only explains things after the fact.

If, instead of R. gigantus and company, the palaeontologists had discovered the fossil of a man wearing spectacles, they would be even more surprised. But not defeated."

The URL of the full text is
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/Comment/Jan05/index277.shtml

Sad, sad stuff.



#14484: — 01/27  at  09:02 AM
Y'know, the 'mammals had to be small and avoid the big dinosaurs' bit just makes me think of The Dinosaurs (c'mon, you know you watched it), when they were eating all the cute little furry mammals.

Of course, it also has one of the most profound lines in all television - "What do you mean there's no more? That's what more means."



#14488: — 01/27  at  09:45 AM
many mammals would have retreated to higher ground during the beginning of the global catastrophe. No, retreating to high ground would have been useless: 40 days and all inundated. Timoraeous, why are we trying to find sense in a senseless delusion?



#14493: — 01/27  at  10:08 AM
Methinks much of the problem here is that quite a few people know just enough about evolution to be dangerous.

To whit ' They said dinosaurs preceeded mammals in my high school biology class. Now they want us to believe that this new critter coexisted with dinosaurs. Somebody is lying or stupid and I dont know which (and I am too lazy to look up the answer).'

Unfortunately these dangerously educated people get their thoughts put in print and disseminated to others of even more profound ignorance and we spiral downward into the abyss.

Feckin' idgits



's avatar #14495: Timageous — 01/27  at  10:24 AM
Senseless delusion is the underlying point, jaimito. Thanks for making that obvious for the rest of us. If you want to believe in something bad enough, nothing can prove you wrong,... especially if you have devoted your life to your delusion. How do you combat that?

Ditto to last line of response # 10

If its not instant, its not gratification.



#14498: — 01/27  at  10:51 AM
Remarkably, someone wasn't joking when he/she said,
...The “theory” [evolution] doesn’t predict anything. It only explains things after the fact.

Did you hear that? Woo-hoo! We did it! We are victorious! The war is finally over!

Of course, I don't necessarily agree that Evolution can't predict anything.

But, I must say, that the "Origin of Life" debate [sic] has pretty much reached a denouement when the Creationists concede that
It [evolution] only explains things.

I couldn't have said it better, myself.

smile

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#14503: — 01/27  at  11:23 AM
I couldn’t have said it better, myself.

But... Max Born could have, and did:
I believe there is no philosophical high-road in science, with epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by trial and error, building our road behind us as we proceed.

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#14514: — 01/27  at  12:34 PM
mammals are usually found higher in the fossil record (i.e. many mammals and humans would have retreated to higher ground during the beginning of the global catastrophe of Noah’s Flood

Well that explains why all those fast-moving angiosperms are found in upper stratigraphic layers........



#14526: — 01/27  at  02:46 PM
The “theory” [evolution] doesn’t predict anything.


So nobody was expecting to find anything like Ambulocetus, eh?



's avatar #14538: Timageous — 01/27  at  05:15 PM
"fast-moving angiosperms "-tee hee,...

Is that why there are so few species of cycad now? Further, I suppose that it is also safe to say that Ambulocetus were also slow walkers. Not to mention those Australopithicenes that creationists get so ancy over.

Have any creationists come out with an opinion about Homo floresiensis?

If its not instant, its not gratification.



#14542: Bryson Brown — 01/27  at  05:59 PM
There is a kind of clue in here to the psychopathology of these people. (The same thing is apparent in that very sorry piece in the Ottawa Citizen-- it used to be a good paper, but every since Conrad Black took over it's been a print version of Fox News-- the ownership did change again, but the paper has never recovered).

The point is that both pieces assume that a truly scientific theory of evolution should predict everything-- the entire course of life on earth. Surprises aren't allowed (hence the peculiar noises re. Homo Floresiensis, too). But Newtonian theory never predicted the appearance of Halley's comet- only its reappearance. Oddly, creationists of the time didn't crow in triumph, declaring that Newton's theory failed to predict, and only explained things post facto.

We all know why this creationist assumption is absurd, and why failure to make predictions of one particular kind doesn't rule out making dramatic and successful predictions of other kinds. But these obvious points never seems to sink in with the creationist crowd.

Maybe it's down to their religious convictions: They have a complete picture of the important facts about the world all laid out in the bible. The rest is details (trivial ones, really). Somehow, they think every theory should be complete, at least as regards its core account of things. So any gaps, and any surprises, even if they are perfectly compatible with the theory, strike them as proof that the theory is terribly weak. The methodological ideas here are so bizarre, it's hard to be sure this is right. But (for me at least) it has the right flavour...



#14549: — 01/27  at  06:59 PM
There is a kind of clue in here to the psychopathology of these people. (The same thing is apparent in that very sorry piece in the Ottawa Citizen— it used to be a good paper, but every since Conrad Black took over it’s been a print version of Fox News— the ownership did change again, but the paper has never recovered).


I don't think Black owns the Ottawa Senior Citizen anymore. He sold it, along with the National Pest, to the Asper's CanWest/Global empire; which also owns Global television, the Vancouver Sun, and a bunch of other stuff.

Black (or Lord Tubby as Frank Magazine used to call him, hehehe) has been in a bit of financial and legal trouble over the past couple of years and has been forced to sell off parts of his publishing empire.



#14558: Bryson Brown — 01/27  at  08:55 PM
It's been a wonderful source of schadenfreude over the last year and more to watch Black getting his comeuppance. The claims to privilege and entitlement get pretty bare when it turns out you've been robbing the shareholders instead of making them money. He sold to CanWest before the wheels came off (the National Post is still losing money under CanWest, I believe) but the papers in that chain are as bad as ever. The Calgary Herald, for instance, wasn't so bad until Black took over, went through a terrible strike/ union breaking episode and has remained a wasteland of idle right wing crowing and carping ever since.



#14577: — 01/28  at  12:51 AM
The Calgary Herald, for instance, wasn’t so bad until Black took over, went through a terrible strike/ union breaking episode and has remained a wasteland of idle right wing crowing and carping ever since.


Indeed. Can't read it since the strike, and was getting prety sick of it before. A pity our only two local papers are dumb and dumber. Black really blighted the Canadian press landscape. Typical that one of his one-time papers prints David Wornout's blitherings. And today's Post had McKittrick's latest (ever more frantic) "disproof" of Mann et al.'s reconstruction of terrestrial temperatures over the past millenium. Aything to keep the suits happy...



#14580: — 01/28  at  02:17 AM
AiG's Jonathan Sarfati (aka "Socrates") has posted a pro-YEC article at The Conservative Voice: Creation in six consecutive normal days.



#14584: UrsulaV — 01/28  at  08:36 AM
Now I just wanna see "Ambulocetus vs. Angiosperm: THE RACE." One mammal...one plant...five hundred gruelling miles to the top of Mt. Ararat..."

And if we can get 'em cute little race numbers and specially fitted Nikes, I will die (mostly) content.



#14602: pough — 01/28  at  12:48 PM
Many people have the false belief that “science” has proven the earth to be billions of years old, and that every living thing descended from a single cell which itself is the result of chance combination of chemicals.

-from that Sarfati article, emphases mine.

Oh no! The misconceptions of the ignorant masses are under attack by an even bigger ignoramus! I think he's just a little bit confused about whom he disagrees with...

Best response so far:

blah blah blah jesus blah blah god blah blah jesus blah blah the bible says blah blah blah



#14637: — 01/28  at  04:11 PM
Hehe, I like how all the humans apparently managed to get to "high ground" when that darn flood came. Apparently none lived on plains!



#14639: — 01/28  at  04:44 PM
bobderfisch, The purported flood event or events in the Pacific Northwest would have likely resulted in sweeping anything as light as a human or similar critter out to sea, although there are backwater areas where detritus would have settled to proved what was living in the area at the time. So, I am curious about the status of undersea research in this regard. Has offshore work been done to search for swept away life forms? IIRC, current information is that he oldest human, Kennewick Man, in this corner of the planet lived after the last Lake Missoula flood, but is this a universal conditon?



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