Pharyngula

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Wednesday, February 09, 2005

Responding to a request from Amitai Etzioni

Some pompous egotist named Amitai Etzioni has solicited responses from the contributors to the Panda's Thumb to his comments on the teaching of intelligent design. His latest blog entry, though, was not encouraging. The man is a phony. Take a look at this:

According to the above comments, facts are based on “careful, controlled experiments.” But no fact about evolution is the result of an experiment. Need I say more?

This is trivially false and easily refuted. For example, in my next science post (to be made tomorrow, I hope, if I get an hour or so free) is on a very nice article from the Carroll lab on the role of cis regulatory sequences in the evolution of wing patterns in a fly lineage. The fact of evolution they are addressing is the idea that color patterns in the wing have been a consequence of modifications of regulatory regions of the yellow gene. The experiments that led to that idea were combinations of sequence analyses, syntheses of modified DNA sequences, and expression of the custom gene fragments in flies.

This is only the most recent experiment in my readings. There have been many, many others. Etzioni has just outed himself as someone completely ignorant of the field he is judging.

The writer immediately retreats to rely on what the “vast majority of scientists” tell him. But evidence, as his previous line correctly points out, is not a democratic process. And by the way, the scientists that claim that they conducted experiments to prove their point? They didn’t.

See above. This is an incredibly offensive statement, actually; scientists who say they have done experiments, who have published descriptions of those experiments in refereed journals, and whose experiments have been replicated haven't actually done any experiments? What the heck is he suggesting? He has just called all evolutionary biologists liars.

And I am not talking about creationism when referring to Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design claims that what we see around us strongly suggests that some wise, superior force was at work—not that it did its job on the run.

And, ummm…have they done any experiments to demonstrate the existence of this "wise, superior force"? No, they have not.

Face the facts: the evidence in favor of evolutionary theory is thin and speculative. Students should understand this and so should those who graduated from school some time ago.

The man who has just demonstrated how oblivious he is to the actual content of the discipline of evolutionary biology does not get to declare it "thin and speculative." He is a fraud and a fool.

Thus We Hold: Students should be exposed to the ideas of both evolution and Intelligent Design.

Scratch the "thus." Building an argument on patently false premises invalidates its conclusions.


There. I've responded to the man. I wonder if this is what he wanted?


Note added: Mrs Tilton also speaks out against Etzioni, far more gently than I do.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/1903/1lGTwsxa/

Comments:
's avatar #15707: Chris Clarke — 02/09  at  06:55 PM
Amitai Etzioni has made a career of making ridiculous and internally contradictory statements in the social sciences that are unsupported by anything so pedestrian as evidence. He's also a self-described liberal who thinks everyone should be forced to carry national ID cards and work for the state for free for a span of years.

In other words, he's got a long track record as a person who should be given scant notice. Nonetheless, there are some liberal thinkers (self-described) who revere him as some sort of icon.

In happier news, Adam Felber has a fantastic post on ID.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#15708: hilzoy — 02/09  at  07:01 PM
He's a communitarian political philosopher. I apologize on behalf of my discipline.



's avatar #15709: Ben — 02/09  at  07:08 PM
But evidence, as his previous line correctly points out, is not a democratic process.

Oh, the irony...

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#15712: — 02/09  at  07:44 PM
I find it odd that so many Creationists say "evolution" when they really mean "speciation". Then they just make matters worse with those idiotic arguments about believing in microevolution, but not in macroevolution, as if that's possible. It's not that hard of a concept, but they just totally miss the whole point.

Rrawr!



#15713: Bartholomew — 02/09  at  07:51 PM
I remember this guy from about ten years ago - he had some sort of idea about community, which a load of hacks and pundits seized on as the Great New Thought Which Will Save Us All Of The Week. Then he disappeared from view.

Now we know why.



#15716: — 02/09  at  08:07 PM
Anybody who states that the evidence supporting the theory of evolution is 'thin' is a fool who is living in a paradise of ignorance on the subject.

I'd feel sorry for Etzioni, but I know he is smart enough to know better, and I detect the faint odor of Phil Johnson's brand of zealotry about him.



#15717: — 02/09  at  08:10 PM
Evidence is not a democratic process?! Holy crap, now I'm going to have spend trillions of dollars on equipment and hundreds of thousands of years of my free time to personally verify the results of every experiment that ever took place. Damn you, Amitai Etzioni!



#15718: — 02/09  at  08:33 PM
What bugs me is that I know Etzioni in the past has supported decent things, such as not allowing companies to take out what's been called 'dead peasant' life insurance policies on their employees. For him to be so ignorant about the theory of evolution has me wondering why he would be, as he's not an idiot. Hence, my earlier reference to Johnson and his foolish crusade against godless materialism, etc.

To put it to PZ now, Etzioni is neither a simple fraud or fool, but he certainly did write a foolish thing to you. It might be useful to ask him what he's basing his opinion on, and see where that might lead. Hmm?...



's avatar #15719: PZ Myers — 02/09  at  09:04 PM
He has made sweeping, false, and slanderous charges against an entire discipline. I'm willing to think him a complex fraud and fool, but nothing more, and I don't see much point in pursuing a flaming idiot like that any further.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#15722: — 02/09  at  09:33 PM
Fair enough PZ. I can understand how you feel about your own dicipline being so foolishly dismissed in such a pig-ignorant way. I just wish people like Etzioni would wise up, as I know they are smart enough to know better.



#15732: Xavier — 02/09  at  11:22 PM
I read that article about the cis-regulatory sequences at Sciencedaily.com - do you know where I can get something a little meatier to read?

Xavier



#15733: — 02/10  at  12:33 AM
PZ (and others), you've made this point before, about how everyone, regardless of their training, feels they have the expertise to comment on the validity of the THEORY OF EVOLUTION. They make so many mistakes, it makes biologists laugh (or cry, or spit blood!), but for some reason, they feel qualified to pronounce their verdict, in a field of which they are manifestly ignorant. I, myself, wouldn't even claim the right to "debunk" some other field of biology, and I consider myself reasonably well informed. Now certainly I might look critically at a particular study, examine it, and disagree with the method or the unstated assumptions, etc. That's the way science progresses, by honest critical assessment of the work. TIt's funny, what this reminds me of is the student who walks in to your office, and sits down with "I've got this theory about how to cure AIDS, and I just wanted to check it out with you before I send it off to the Nobel committee." Now, perhaps Prof. Etzioni is trying to make an honest inquiry or contribution (like the above example), and should be sat down, and patiently talked to about his naivete. However, unlike that undergraduate who thinks they have solved the worlds problems, Prof. Etzioni is a reasonably well known "thinker", whose opinions are often published and thus carry weight. I tend to think he is not quite as naive as his "aw shucks" approach would have us believe.

What I find most irritating, though, is the smug "well, now that's settled!" tone of these things, where some jerk thinks in 500 words of bs he's going to set all those crazy evolutionary biologists straigt. As you said, what a maroon!



Trackback: Never the Twain Shall Meet Tracked on: Foreign Dispatches (66.151.149.25) at 2005 02 10 05:03:49
P.Z. Myers runs into some statements by Amitai Etzioni, apostle of



#15739: — 02/10  at  05:07 AM
I wonder if the confusion in Amitai Etzioni's mind stems from his mis-interpretation of the term 'evolution'? If he's thinking of the "goo to you" grotesque parody, then I can see (but not agree) with his point of view. After all, we can't perform the experiment of evolution on Earth all over again. What we can and do do, however, is make predictions about (what else we will find in) the past based on what we study and experiment with today, either with current life or with traces of past life in fossils. I simply don't understand why the creationists refuse to recognise such work as experimental science. I've seen writings by them dismissing anything other than here-and-now-experiment as science. (As many have pointed out, this also dismisses Geology, Astronomomy, Forensic Science and Archaeology as sciences.) Why, why, oh why do they espouse such ignorance?



#15743: — 02/10  at  08:27 AM
I hate to be snide, but the discussion on his site rather reminded me of the way things are debated on the McLaughlin Group ("But Pat there is a lot of eveidence in favor of evolution..." "The answer is evolution sucks"). The few reponses to Etzioni I read were of such a basic and even superficial level (Evolution is based on experimentation) and the responses (no it's not) were even more superficial. I'm thinking that when I have some time I might respond to Etzioni with examples from the literature on evolutionary biology (I'm thinking something from Endler's Natural Selection in the Wild). If he is going to set himself up as an expert why not throw some highly technical science at him?



#15744: — 02/10  at  08:35 AM
Etzioni is a brilliant, articulate, very successful self-promoter. Scan his CV (he or his staff maintain a large website promoting just him, on which he fields questions with oracular seriousness as if he's the center of the universe) and you'll see what I mean. He's lists membership in more organization, boards, and associations than there are creationists in Cobb County, and only one (that I could find), is associated with the hard sciences (member of the editorial board of Science for two years. Otherwise his background is devoid of any experience remotely related to biology or any other hard science, so he's just blowing smoke on this one.



#15747: Michael Feldgarden — 02/10  at  09:35 AM
I fail to understand how Etzioni can say that are no evolutionary experiments. Evolutionary biologists perform all kinds of laboratory experiments: Richard Lenski's and Dan Dykhuizen's work with E. coli, all the Drosophila cage experiments, plant breeding experiments, manipulating bird beaks to study selection and morphology, and the work demonstrating how some cellular organelles are derived from endosymbiotic bacteria (and there are many others I've left out). There are experiments that address evolutionary questions.

What's more disturbing is his fundamental misunderstanding of science (i.e, that it requires experimental manipulation). By his logic, astronomy isn't science either. How does one manipulate planets? Science requires hypothesis testing; you can do that using experimental data and historical information.



#15750: revere — 02/10  at  10:21 AM
I am an epidemiologist, which is an observational science. We don't do experiments. In that regard we are not different than geologists, seismologists, astronomers, cosmologists, natural history/taxonomists, etc., etc. The notion that only experiments (by which I take to mean that the investigator controls the independent variable) produces facts is stupid and misinformed.

I can agree with him on only one thing: he need not say more.



#15752: — 02/10  at  10:53 AM
Damn, I was going to make the above point about the role of experimentation in science, but Revere beat me to it by an hour -- as I should have known he would.

I will just endorse his point, and stress that I think it's more important for us to be arguing that science does not require experiments than it is to show that evolutionary science does use such experiments. Otherwise, all the fields Revere lists are as unscientific as ID. Nowhere in the scientific method handbook (ha ha) does it say that you need to perform experiments: rather, at least if we may take Popper as a reasonable model, we only need to refute hypotheses. Observation can do that just as well as experiment in many cases. Certainly the astronomers (among whom I used to number myself) like to think so.


henry



#15754: — 02/10  at  11:20 AM
Etzioni has always struck me as a fellow traveler in the New Agey left. While these may be people who tend to want good things in the world, they have little interest in factual, reality based analysis. They make easy targets in the culture wars. Aromatherapy anyone, maybe some crystals .... He is interesting to the media because he makes spacey, unsubstantiated, controversial statements. I thing he should be ignored.



's avatar #15755: PZ Myers — 02/10  at  11:23 AM
It is a good point. It reflects a very naive view by Etzioni on how science is done.

I'm seeing the same thing in some of our local schoolteachers who think legitimate science fair projects must have a title that can be encompassed by the form, "The Effect of X on Y." It's very annoying: it's like putting a mental straightjacket on their creativity.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#15757: — 02/10  at  11:38 AM
Etzioni has always struck me as a fellow traveler in the New Agey left.

Funny...I tend to think of him more as a faux-centrist, in the N. Kristof/T. Friedman vein. You know the type: conservatives may do bad things, but liberals are bad people. This whole "let's give both sides equal time" BS strikes me as an ostensibly evenhanded way of bashing the left as "intolerant."



's avatar #15760: — 02/10  at  12:35 PM
Etzioni strikes me as a fool, a well-meaning ignorant fool. But unlike Behe et al., his background is not Christian Fundamentalism, making his conversion to ID the more alarming to me. The disease has jumped the "species barrier", and we are now all exposed to catch it.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#15762: — 02/10  at  01:04 PM
The ID 'species' jump has always been there, jaimito. Mildly interested people just see it as a presenting all sides thing. Much of education training today is 'holistic'. Combine these two things and the 'why not be nice and talk about it in school' meme becomes easily spread.

It could be to our advantage that people like Etzioni put the subject in front of the public (or the limitied public that listens to him) because it creates a forum for letting that public know that ID may be talked about as a philosophical/social concept, just like religion ... but that doesn't make it science



#15763: — 02/10  at  01:08 PM
Uncle Kvetch, maybe Etzioni then is that chameleon known as the celebrity, with no real purpose other than to be known. The personification of a 'sparkly'.

To some degree Communitarianism is religion without god, and ID is creationism without god. No wonder he was drawn in.



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