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Tuesday, January 25, 2005

Ruse muddies the waters

Michael Ruse has been discussing the must-have books in evolution, and the discussion has taken a very strange turn.

What about Darwinism, evolution, and religion? In fact, those most ardent to turn evolution into a religion have tended not to be Darwinians. Herbert Spencer and Thomas Henry Huxley in the nineteenth century and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin in the twentieth. But the simple fact of the matter is that, use language as you like or not, the fact remains that for many evolutionists – some Darwinian and some not – evolution does function as a secular religion. The creationists are right about this. The right move is to recognize this fact and to move forward, not to deny it.

No, no, no. You could argue that many of us find solace in secularism, or that science provides a story of origins or explanation for the world, and that it does substitute for religion in providing a rational explanation of our place in the universe, but it is not a religion unless you want to say that everything that provides a reference point is a religion. And in particular, scientific disciplines like evolutionary biology are not religions, and scientific theories like evolution are not religions. Ruse must have a very, very broad and peculiar definition of "religion" to think so. Is mathematics also a religion? How about engineering?

This idea plays right into the hands of Johnson and others like him, who have been peddling extreme relativism as one of the planks of their program, and who also think evolution is a religion. Everything is religion to them—I'm waiting for them to come out against the dogma of 2+2=4. It makes it easier for them to pretend half-baked myths have equal merit to tested scientific ideas if they can claim an unjustified equivalence between them.

There is one similiarity…

One final point. I do agree with Sakar that there is more to biology than evolution. But there seems to be something about evolution that attracts philosophers more than the other areas of biology. I found this when I edited Biology and Philosophy. I could never get people to write on anything else! The fact is that evolution is closer to religion than the rest of biology – it asks the ultimate meaning questions about life and humans and our place and history and even future – and so this is what attracts philosophers, even (especially) the secular ones among us.

Scientists do ask the big questions, but they don't declare that all of the answers have been revealed to them. All we have is a useful tool to chip away at the natural world and see what it is made of.

I would like to see a definition of religion that encompasses science. I can imagine something broad, like "a philosophical position that describes an attitude towards reality", but 1) that would sweep all of the major, expressed characteristics of recognized religions under the rug, and 2) would open up religion to the criticism that if reality is the measure, then we should maybe start assessing them on the basis of how closely their views model reality. If anyone wants to claim science is a religion, I also want them to provide a scorecard.


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Comments:
#14300: — 01/25  at  09:51 AM
PZ; My ex FIL was a militant, confrontational creationist. He had a few recurring points which he used as "absolute proof", one of which was a reputed set of human and dino' foot prints in a stream bed in the southern US. I didn't have any frame of reference to dispute this footprint thing although it had Piltdown written all over it. What do you know of these foot prints? Creationists wave them around like a blood-stained trophy, so you should know what ammo the bad guys are using. When I would ask (before I just gave up trying to make sense of his theories) how fossilized fish got into sediment layers in the Himalayas, he would respond that God put them there to fool with us in order to test our faith.



#14304: Heliologue — 01/25  at  10:44 AM
And you know, now that one person has said it, creationists will latch onto that soundbyte like a fly on a cowpie. There is perhaps no more absurd phrase known to the English language than "the religion of Darwinism."



#14305: — 01/25  at  10:50 AM
'But there seems to be something about evolution that attracts philosophers more than the other areas of biology. I found this when I edited Biology and Philosophy. I could never get people to write on anything else!' Which gets a big SO WHAT!
Before Evolution was debated, philosiphers were going on about procreation and related subjects. Before that it was free will versus determinism. The common referent is the so-called 'Human Condition'.
The part about evolution being closer to religion than the rest of biology is just so much wind as well. What seems to be forgotten is all the gassing about 'Nature vrs. Nuture' wrt homosexuality. Not to mention the past searches for the human mind (and soul) inside the physical brain.
Also forgotten were the psych experiments showing how easy it is to lose one's moral/ethical center. I forget the names of them. One was the Jailer 'leader' / Prisoner 'follower' one that progressed so swiftly and decisively into a 'Lord of the Flies' scenerio that it was cut short. The other was the 'following orders' set up, which was blogged about extensively after the Abu Graihb torture scandal. And we are to nod our heads and agree when told that evolution has more bearing than these?



#14307: John Wendt — 01/25  at  10:51 AM
Ruse said "many", not all. I would rather it be "some", and I wonder if much of it isn't circle-the-wagons defensiveness, some of it for a pet idea within the profession, much moreso against a perceived religious attack.

We need, I think, to emphasize the synthetic basis of evolutionary biology, that is, theory is built of small blocks that can be tested and manipulated independently of the conclusion. Darwin started this, and evo-devo is continuing the tradition.

The only thing Intelligent Design has to offer, outside of the speculations of Behe and Dembski, is ad hoc speculation, such as Richard's FIL saying "God did it that way because..."

As to the footprints, see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html



's avatar #14310: PZ Myers — 01/25  at  11:21 AM
My problem is that it's a conflation of disparate ideas. There is a kind of secularism that finds comfort in the natural world, independent of the religious myths of their forefathers; I kind of subscribe to that, and can see a philosophical argument that that is a fuzzy kind of religion (not that I'd agree with it, but I can see a reasonable and intelligent person arguing that way.)

Then there is the process of science and the body of knowledge behind it and the theories that explain the world. I do not see that as fitting under "religion" at all. It's like the difference between Judaism and the history of the Jewish people; one is religion and is definitely influenced by the history, and the history has definitely been affected by the religious beliefs of the people, but the history is not the religion. People of different religions or no religion at all can agree on the history.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#14311: — 01/25  at  11:23 AM
Good post. There was a webpage I ran across, not too long ago, that addressed this very topic [whether science is some kind of a religion, or not]. One of the very basic, and for some reason most-overlooked, differences is that religion posits the existence of the supernatural. Science does not; science is more like an investigative process or a puzzle-solving activity.



#14312: Steve-o — 01/25  at  11:29 AM
I suspect that, for some theists at least, when they say "science is just another religion", the problem is that religion is such a central part of their own life that they can't imagine any life without it. If somebody is not part of a recognized religion, the theist assumes that some other entity must take religion's place in that person's life. Simply having *nothing* in place of it is probably very hard to conceptualize for somebody who has been deeply religious for their entire life.



#14314: — 01/25  at  11:37 AM
The fact is that evolution is closer to religion than the rest of biology – it asks the ultimate meaning questions about life and humans and our place and history and even future...

Alas, I can see the light!

It's not anti-evolution...

...it's anti-(anti-anthropromophism)!

These people obviously cannot stand the idea of human life being of little importance in the Universe.

Well, too bad. Life is pointless.

smile

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#14315: — 01/25  at  11:38 AM
Religion at one time sought to explain everything in the universe religiously via revealed truth (with an initial cap, of course). But when skeptics began probing, religion gave birth to natural theology, neatly separating it from revelations. Natural theology, of course, evolved into science in which the supernatural plays no part. While many philosphers have made a similar transition, removing god or gods from their discourse, not all have. I suspect it is those to whom Ruse is pointing.

As for why, the reason to me seems obvious. Evolution puts homo sapiens in the same category as every other living thing on Earth, a product of natural events. Many people, including some atheists, I suspect, like to think we're somehow different from all the rest and choose to ignore the overwhelming relatedness between all organisms, including man/woman. Given the extent to which Europeans seem to accept man's place in evolution, the parochial and limited vision of so many Americans is not innate but cultural. Too many of our fellow countrymen, including some philosophers, just can't cope with what they probably see as the triviality of existence implied in accepting evolution and its implications for our origins.



#14316: — 01/25  at  12:03 PM
John Wendt: Thanks for the URL—just as I suspected, the tracks are bogus "evidence".



#14317: — 01/25  at  12:24 PM
"The fact is that evolution is closer to religion than the rest of biology – it asks the ultimate meaning questions about life and humans and our place and history and even future – and so this is what attracts philosophers, even (especially) the secular ones among us."

Maybe that's because evolution is what gives meaning to the facts of biology. That doesn't make it a religion any more than, as Mr Myers says, engineering is a religion because it gives meaning to artifacts.



#14319: — 01/25  at  01:39 PM
My definition of religion is more or less this one swiped from an online dictionary: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." Evolution does not posit any such power, therefore it is not a religion.

Religions usually make claims about the real world, and science such as evolution is often incompatible with those claims, but that doesn't make it a religion. It just makes the religion wrong.



#14320: — 01/25  at  02:06 PM
Wouldn't it be better to ask (or search for) a definition of religion coming from Ruse? 8-)
My 2 cents worth, but I suspect he thinks of religion as a kind of framework needed to expound our own life and that of the universe (if it HAS a life). And in this sense he may be somewhat right; at leas AFAIC.
Better said (I hope), religion may be a human attitude giving sense and solace to our own life; biology (evolutionary biology at least) affirms that life (human and otherwise) has no sense at all. Negative answer maybe, but still an answer.
Note that this definition of religion doesn't imply a supernatural being. Buddhism (if my memory doesn't fail me) is such a "religion.
Did I make Ruse thoughts acceptable?

Marco



#14321: RH Stephens — 01/25  at  02:12 PM
I recall Joseph Campbell saying in his interviews with Bill Moyers that "what we need is a religion for the 21st Century." Perhaps so - one that can explore the depths of the human thought and emotion, using science as the framework for helping us to understanding that we may never be able to understand. Star Wars may, in fact, be right - there is a force that binds us all.

I also recall reading Langdon Gilkey's book Creationism On Trial: Evolution and God at Little Rock in which he expressed great amazement that the scientists, testifying at the trial, while knowing their areas of expertise well, could not explain the difference between a science and a religion ... nor can we now. He, being a theologian, of course could.

He states: "I realized that this case could help us understand in new ways how science and the religious manifest themselves in such a society, and the strange roles they perform and the bizarre ways they may there unite and interact."

I would not look to colleagues for definitions of religion any more than I would look to an evangelical Christian for scientific objectivity.



#14322: — 01/25  at  02:15 PM
Richard, there are other equally bogus claims. My response is, "It never happened." If the creationist insists, I simply say, "You're wrong. It never happened. There is no such thing." It's pointless to argue with them, because they are not subject to rational argument.

As to the "religion" of science, I agree that it's a misuse of the term. Science replaces some of the just-so stories that religion provided to explain the physical world, but that doesn't make it religion. I suppose one might say that one is philosophically inclinced toward a scientific approach to the world, but never that one is religiously inclined towards the scientific approach. I agree in part that the religionists can't imagine a world view that doesn't include religion, but I think the real motive is far less honest. They are trying to cast science, and biology in particular, as religion so that they can argue for the inclusion of their religion when the "religion of science" is taught in the schools. You can never underestimate the honesty of the creationists, but it would be dangerous to underestimate their cunning. I suggest that you look up "sly" in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. See the synonyms for a list of words that apply to the creationists.



#14323: — 01/25  at  02:17 PM
Oh my goodness. See the random quote just now?
Adolph Hiter: "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." Change a few words (or one) and see how it fits a certain politician of today.



#14324: — 01/25  at  02:25 PM
...Biology (evolutionary biology at least) affirms that life (human and otherwise) has no sense at all.

I think that biology celebrates life. Biologists practically make a living from pointing to exceedingly complex molecular structures and saying,
"It's alive! So, how does it work?"


It's reductionist physics that denies the existence of emergent entities from particulars.

Yes. I often question the Creationist's choice NOT to go straight for the scientific family jewels...

...Quantum Field Theory!

smile

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#14325: coturnix — 01/25  at  02:25 PM
You can look up Zimbardo's Stanford Prison experiment here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Zimbardo+Evil&btnG=Google+Search

The other experiment is by Asch.

I have actually seen papers in philosophy of cell biology, physiology, animal behavior and cognition, and of course a lot of philosophy of ecology (Salmon, Cooper). Much of philosophy of mind is subset of philosophy of biology, imho. But evolution is the grand unifying theme, thus righfully takes the bulk of study by philosophers.



#14326: — 01/25  at  02:27 PM
RH writes

"Star Wars may, in fact, be right - there is a force that binds us all."

Yeah. That force is called rational thinking. Every healthy human being engages in rational thinking every day of his or her life. If they don't, they are cared for and watched over by others.

And that is why the idea that "science" is a religion is a bogus self-serving lie repeated ad nauseum by creationist rubes.

The scientific method -- comprising empirical observations, rational explanations, repetition and testing -- are relied on by everyone. It is a matter of survival. Humans differ in their abilities and affinities for scientific tools only by degrees. And the differences in degrees are very small, in spite of many creationist protests to the contrary.

Worshipping particular deities and or conforming one's life to a code based on the arbitrary writings of a holy book or a specific "master" are not ubiquitous human behaviors. They are "add ons" used by science-practicing humans to afford such humans pleasure, be it pleasure in the form of security or pleasure in the form of casting judgment and effecting conformity.

This morning on the train I read an interesting essay by the immortal Jorge Luis Borges, entitled "A Vindication of Basiledes the False". It ends with the following great line

"[What] better gift can we hope for than to be insignificant? What greater glory for a God, than to be absolved of the world?"

which in turn reminded me of the classic line spoken by the great Jack Palance in Godard's "Contempt":

"I like gods. I know exactly how they feel."

The evangelical "ID theory" peddlers have no clue what they're getting into if they continue to act as if they have cornered the market on god-talk. Oy, it's a hard rain that's gonna fall.



#14327: — 01/25  at  02:37 PM
Excuse me, Mark. Are you actually comparing our beloved President Bush with the abominable Adolph Hitler?

Oh, okay. Just making sure you weren't being facetious!

smile

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#14329: — 01/25  at  03:33 PM
Here is part of the description of Ruse's latest book, The Evolution-Creation Struggle:

"Exploring the underlying philosophical commitments of evolutionists, he reveals that those most hostile to religion are just as evangelical as their fundamentalist opponents. But more crucially, and reaching beyond the biblical issues at stake, he demonstrates that these two diametrically opposed ideologies have, since the Enlightenment, engaged in a struggle for the privilege of defining human origins, moral values, and the nature of reality."



's avatar #14334: PZ Myers — 01/25  at  05:13 PM
I'm no fan of religion, but it seems to me that these loose definitions of religion that accommodate just about any ol' hobby, bias, or perspective not only demean science, but they also do a disservice to religion.

I don't mind the latter myself, but if we're going to piss on the gods, can we at least try not to splatter science in the process?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #14337: Chris Clarke — 01/25  at  05:44 PM
Excuse me, Mark. Are you actually comparing our beloved President Bush with the abominable Adolph Hitler?


"Bush is not Adolf Hitler. But he could be if he applied himself."

- Margaret Cho

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#14341: — 01/25  at  06:19 PM
Mathematics - only religion that can prove it's a religion, so I've heard. Haven't got as far as proof of Godel's theorem so I'd have to take their word for it.



#14342: — 01/25  at  06:48 PM
Jeebus, I name no names. However, it could be instructive if one were inclined towards learning to note the damage a powerful government leader can do if he is convinced that god is on his side. If he believes that, he also believes that all things are permitted to him.



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