Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Thursday, December 09, 2004

Sailer fans, meet Rivka

Respectful of Otters has a fine, fine post up on the Brooks/Sailer bigotry. I'll also mention here some of my objections.

One problem is that Sailer's argument is selective. If "natality" or birth rate is the key criterion, why throw out a sizable chunk of the sample by explicitly disregarding the entire non-white population? There is a casual disregard of African-Americans that is simply appalling: all of the issues that Sailer claims are so important—security and education—are equally important to all of us. Blacks are excluded simply because they do not fit his predetermined hypothesis.

Once he has filtered his data to get the result he wants, he then uses that result to draw unwarranted and odious conclusions. Take, for example, this comment:

Focusing on children, insulation, and population density reveals that blue-region white Democrats’ positions on vouchers, gun control, and environmentalism are motivated partly by fear of urban minorities.

Look at that. He has "revealed" that we white Democrats are motivated by fear...but notice how he arrived at that conclusion: from the fact that birth rates are low and population density is high in urban regions. I presume everyone with any perception at all is able to see that he has not in any sense measured "fear"…that is simply his unjustified interpretation.

He continues this pattern of drawing absurd conclusions throught the piece. Why have Democrats historically been rather more supportive of gun control?

The endless gun-control brouhaha, which on the surface appears to be a bitter battle between liberal and conservative whites, also features a cryptic racial angle. What blue-region white liberals actually want is for the government to disarm the dangerous urban minorities that threaten their children’s safety.

Mr Sailer is certainly projecting here, isn't he? Yeah, all those white Democrats are quivering in terror at the murderous black mobs out to slaughter their children. As a white liberal who worked and lived in Philadelphia, it's just nonsense. I was concerned about urban crime, but I was also quite aware that the city slums were more than just lairs for those dangerous black people—there are brutal white neighborhoods, too, and safe middle-class black neighborhoods. I would have liked criminals to be disarmed, sure; but unlike Sailer, I did not have this biased preconception that they were all black. And now that I'm living in one of those thinly-populated lily-white parts of the country, I still have the same feeling that some moderate gun control is a good idea (but I probably think it less important than people like Sailer believe I do).

He continues to claim to speak for us, and continues to play the race card in a ridiculous way.

White liberals, angered by white conservatives’ lack of racial solidarity with them, yet bereft of any vocabulary for expressing such a verboten concept, pretend that they need gun control to protect them from gun-crazy rural rednecks, such as the ones Michael Moore demonized in “Bowling for Columbine,” thus further enraging red-region Republicans.

That first bit is just bizarre beyond words. I don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion—does he really believe that we white liberals are sitting around, fearing the black mob that surrounds us, and resenting the white Republicans for not coming to our rescue? Our neighbors are our friends and colleagues and fellow voters, people we work with and with whom we share common cause. We really aren't secretly pining away for the redeeming love of white racists, I swear.

I don't think I ever heard a Philly denizen confess to worrying about our country cousins coming to town and shooting us, either. There were plenty of guns in the city itself, so the redneck rampage scenario would be just…laughable. Besides, I thought Sailer was claiming we were afraid of "dangerous urban minorities." I guess when you are busy flinging baseless stereotypes around, you don't have time for consistency.

I don't even see why people think Sailer's odd little correlation is even interesting. It just doesn't explain anything. It looks to me that the racialists saw some of their favorite buzzwords ("white breeders vote Bush") in close proximity and had a creepy kind of orgasm, nothing more significant than that.

Rivka comes far closer to the truth than Sailer. It isn't an issue of black or white, it's a matter of a common, universal human response that has been observed all around the world. Give people a choice, give them an education and economic opportunity, and they voluntarily limit the number of children they have. In thinly populated regions where religion and ignorance reduce people's liberty, birthrates go up. In urban areas where people are more diverse and less limited in their views, people choose to have fewer children—rather than spreading their resources thin over many, they prefer to invest heavily in a few. And you don't have to arbitrarily look at only white people to see the phenomenon in action. All Sailer has done is to take socioeconomic and historical facts about the distribution of people in this country, and painted them with a simplistic black vs. white brush.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/1670/SFDzCGph/

Comments:
's avatar #10774: Chris Clarke — 12/11  at  12:40 AM
Do you deny that Black people (African Americans from certain parts of Africa) have genetic traits that make them more suited for many types of sports including track and field?


See, this is exactly the problem with you racists. You take a minor and interesting statistical anomaly (some small populations in Africa have a somewhat higher percentage of an allele which is nonetheless present in all races) and turn it into "you got to hand it to them blacks: they sure are better at sports."

And then, building on your misunderstanding (whether deliberate or through stupidity) of that simple and interesting gene frequency datum, you think you've built enough of a case that you can then step into the light, confident that your brilliant reasoning will so dazzle us that we won't notice your pointy hood:

If the genetic advantage in sports is true, could it then be possible that “white” people have a genetic advantage to some races with regard to certain cognitive abilities? (And perhaps a genetic disadvantage relative to other races).


The fact is, if this is the most persuasive argument you can muster, and if you have any kind of following among whites, you provide a handy counter to your own thesis.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10775: — 12/11  at  12:47 AM
Well, I don't think many have seriously contended that between-race variation in intelligence and personality factors is greater than within-race variation. Even The Bell Curve does not contend that. Even a two-thirds standard deviation difference between two groups (equivalent to 10 IQ points on a standard IQ scale) would only translate to 10% of variation between the groups, and 90% of variation within.

You can get the 10% figure with this calculation:

% of V (between) = 100% * .5S^2/(2+.5S^2), where S is the number of standard deviations between the means of the groups (assuming both groups have the same standard dev)
Inserting 2/3 as S gives a value of 10%.

To give an example of between group vs. within-group variation, I could make up two sequences of numbers:

Set 1 = {109, 88, 82, 119, 127}--mean 105, variance 302.8, std dev 17.4
Set 2 = {99, 78, 72, 109, 117}--mean 95, variance 302.8, std dev 17.4

If I mixed the two sets together, the new mean would be 100, and the new variance would be 327.8

So, the percentage of variation within these two sets is the variation within over the total variation with the sets mixed together. This gives 100% X 302.8/327.8 = 92.4%, so the percentage of variation between must be 100%-92.4%=7.6%

The percentage of variation between vs. within these sets can also be calculated using the formula 100% *.5S^2/(2+.5^2) for the variation within. The number of standard deviations between sets 1 and 2 is 10 (the difference in mean between the sets) divided by 17.4, which comes out to roughly .575.

Inserting this into the forumla, one gets 100% *.5(.575^2)/(2+.5*.575^2), which comes out to 7.6%, the same result for percentage of variation within the sets as I obtained before.



's avatar #10776: — 12/11  at  01:16 AM
The last entry of Steve Sailer completes my confusion. "White people are better able to afford to vote for candidates on quasi-symbolic family values grounds rather than bread and butter grounds, you see a much greater sensitivity among whites to family size", he says. He even estimates, if I understand it correctly, that 30% of the white vote is driven by quasi-symbolic family values. Blacks too are affected by family rethoric, but only marginally, as they are concerned primarily with urgent bread-and-butter issues.

Steve, if white people can be influenced (not once, but twice in a raw!) by empty quasi-symbolic rethoric, what are they, stupid?

Your idea was that there is a clear, powerful, causal correlation between a basic biological variable (having children) and voting (for Bush). I think the idea is important and it also explains why children-hating Europeans feel such a visceral repulsion towards Bush.

Now put on your thinking sombrero and tell us the mechanics of this thingie. BTW, let me point out to you that sexual organization is NOT correlated with the number of children.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#10779: Steve Sailer — 12/11  at  03:52 AM
Jaimito says, "Steve, if white people can be influenced (not once, but twice in a row!) by empty quasi-symbolic rethoric, what are they, stupid?"

Thomas Frank makes a plausible case for that in his recent book "What's the Matter with Kansas?" And, I could make up a long list of GOP initiatives that I consider stupid: invading a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11, eliminating the estate tax on billionaires, etc.

However, my article provides a clearer understanding of why exactly so many white people voted for Bush despite his mediocre to bad performance on conventional "issues" like the economy and foreign affairs. You may well still think the reasons are stupid, but you will understand the voters' reasons much better than you do now, which is obviously useful in politics.

As for the mechanism, I explain in very down to earth details how the higher cost of living in densely populated blue areas inclines people to either limit their family size or move to a cheaper red area. Please get it out of your head that I'm proposing some exotic genetic theory. This is all basic real estate talk -- you will find that you've had these discussions dozens of times with friends and real estate agents. The most important step toward understanding is PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE:
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_12_06/cover.html



's avatar #10781: PZ Myers — 12/11  at  08:46 AM
No, we will not understand any better. As I pointed out in my article above, you say incredibly stupid things and draw incredibly stupid conclusions. You seem to believe a large majority of 'white people' believe as you do, that 'brown people' are a threat, and that they vote according to their racial fears.

There are people who do that, and it is a problem. It is a problem that will not be overcome by pandering to racists, something the VDARE bigots wish would happen; it will be defeated by educating people and pointing out the nasty little flaws in the racialist line.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#10783: — 12/11  at  09:42 AM
Well, I don’t think many have seriously contended that between-race variation in intelligence and personality factors is greater than within-race variation.

So when a lefty presents data showing that black people score lower on tests than white in an effort to show that a) we need to spend more money to education black people b) black people are not receiving a quality education c) black people experience racism in the classroom or d) some other half-baked scheme, I should respond:

Sure blacks are scoring a standard deviation below whites, but the overall variation in white scores is far greater than the difference between black and white scores, so your concerns are unfounded.

If you say the difference is meaningless for purposes of determining abilities, it also must be meaningless for investigating other issues.

Fact is, the difference is far to large to ignore for any purpose.

To put this another way, no one is saying some black people are smarter than some white people. (Which is what you are addressing when you talk about within-group varation vs group-to-group).

What they are saying is that if you grab one white person from and one black person randomly from a crowd, the white person is more likely to be smarter and the black guy is more likely to be better at many sports. (Not an earth shattering observation really).

Now, what the policy implications of these differences are is another very important question. But that is not the question being discussed here.

-d



's avatar #10784: Chris Clarke — 12/11  at  10:31 AM
What they are saying is that if you grab one white person from and one black person randomly from a crowd, the white person is more likely to be smarter and the black guy is more likely to be better at many sports. (Not an earth shattering observation really).


This is palpably bullshit, and you are a goddamn racist. Not an earth shattering observation really.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10785: — 12/11  at  10:55 AM
Daveg--

I was actually responding to another post by ggw. My point in saying that the vast majority of variation in IQ and almost any factor one can think of is between races is not to say that it's not important--10-15% of variation in some factor between two groups is actually quite significant (assuming the variation within the groups is not trivial), and represents a difference in means of roughly .7 to .8 standard deviations. If it were someday found that 10% of variation in intelligence really were due to genetically based racial differences, The Bell Curve would essentially be vindicated.



#10788: — 12/11  at  11:43 AM
My point in saying that the vast majority of variation in IQ and almost any factor one can think of is between races...

That should read within races.



#10823: — 12/11  at  04:44 PM
This is palpably bullshit, and you are a goddamn racist. Not an earth shattering observation really.

Sigh.

I will refine the statement slightly. If you grab one white person and one black person from a truly random crowd, the white person is much more likely to score higher on all sorts of tests that attempt to determine intelligence. Again, there are other races that will score higher than white people, on average.

This is an indisputable (and provable) fact. The only question is why - nurture or nature?

If, for example, large amounts of money were spent trying to improve the scores of black people via all sort of government programs, and over many decades little change was observed, then that would lead one to conclude nature does play a role.

If, on the other hand, you could show that placing black kids in a certain learning environment - boarding school or something comparable - caused the gap to go away for a sufficiently large sample, then that would point to nurture.

Knowing the true answer will then allow you to determine the proper course of action going forward (or at least debate it intelligently). Not knowing the answer will cause you to pursue all sorts of wasteful actions that will not give you the desired result.

I think people take statements like these and improperly extrapolate them to mean "we therefore should not bother allowing blacks to go to college" or some other similar piece of nonsense. This is completely untrue.

Everyone should still be allowed to pursue their dreams, of course.

-d



's avatar #10839: Chris Clarke — 12/11  at  07:53 PM
I will refine the statement slightly. If you grab one white person and one black person from a truly random crowd, the white person is much more likely to score higher on all sorts of tests that attempt to determine intelligence.


Thanks for refining your statement. My judgment of your intent and character has been significantly reinforced.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10852: Tom — 12/11  at  09:30 PM
I think there are a couple of assumptions being made in your post. The first is that tests for intelligence are accurate. Let's assume that they are, because to disprove that would be beyond my abilities (though I always scored pretty well on them, which is why I have my doubts) and I have read that childhood IQ scores correlate well with adult income.

(Adult income is, of course, the only valid indicator of intelligence... smile

The second is that one could separate the notions of 'nature' and 'nurture' in either of the ways you suggest. I doubt this is the case. As far as I can tell, people are fundamentally irrational, and it's impossible to eliminate any one factor. Well, maybe that's not _quite_ true, but you'd have to work bloody hard at it. And, to go back to the specific case of black children in America, it would be impossible to provide for them an upbringing and thus process of socialization that does not include some element of racism, either in literal terms (racial abuse, etc.) or, more indirectly, via some awareness of the racist aspects of the history of America. (<-- The usual disclaimers apply. I omit them, with apologies to any offended American readers, in the interests of brevity.)

Of course, I don't really know to what extent this will have an effect, so I hope the reader will forgive some vagueness. I am exhibit A for this, too. My privileged upbringing by loving parents and subsequent expensive self-affirming education has enabled me to shrug off any suggestion that I am anything other than the sharpest tool in the box, despite any evidence to the contrary. It exists, most surely, and I am aware of it at an intellectual level, but my basic self-belief at some level remains, regardless. I don't like to bring this up, because it's tiresome for the reader, and poor style, but I mention it because it is what has lead me to believe that the more intangible aspects of one's childhood -- what you might term the 'background noise' in one's formative years -- can have a profound effect, irrespective of one's native abilities. (I have noticed something similar in my peers, as well.)

The upshot is that I am sure that this background noise, this general rumbling coming from the idea that there may or may not be some innate difference between black people and white people, cannot be eliminated and cannot be assumed to have no effect. And until it has died down, I'm not convinced that it is possible to separate in any meaningful way "nature" from "nurture", and I suspect that its presence will skew in some direction -- probably negative -- any attempt to measure innate intelligence. That's not guaranteed, but, as I said, people are irrational, and it's not possible to determine for sure what effect a given set of inputs will produce. But my guess is that the general effect will be negative.

You'd have to have a set of white people brought up in an equivalent environment, with an equivalent type of 'background noise', in order to be sure. As it stands, I feel there are too many other factors in play.



#10853: Tom — 12/11  at  09:32 PM
(I'd like to apologise to all for the abomination that appeared in place of my colon followed by a closing bracket. There appears to be no way to make these things appear correctly. I would never have written it had I realised.)



#10884: Leonard — 12/12  at  01:20 PM
PZ, re #55:

I'd agree with you that Sailer makes some unfair generalization about what blue-people want - something I don't think he really has any experience about. I.e I don't think white liberals want gun control to "disarm the dangerous urban minorities that threaten their children’s safety". I think they want gun control to disarm everybody (including minorities but in no way focusing on them), and they think that will be good for everyone's safety (not just their childrens' though that is good too). Sailer puts a very negative spin on this. Well, that sells magazines.

But I could be wrong about that - I'm not a liberal.

However, Sailer's remarkably strong correlation still stands, and begs for explanation. And it is clear to me, at least, that people do choose where to live based in part on schools.

All people want good schools for their kids. They will move to get them. However, moving is expensive. This plays out in several ways:
(1) People who don't have kids can live whereever they want. The funnest places to be for many people are cities, so, that's where the non-fertile people end up. (Gays, singles and couples w/o children.)
(2) People who can afford private schools don't need to move to get good schools, so they, too, end up in cities
(3) People who can't afford private schools, but do have kids, end up moving into suburbs which they perceive as having good schools.

Now, if it were only those factors operating, you'd still see a white/black separation (and voting effect) due to the simple fact that white people have more wealth than black people. Moving is not cheap, in three ways:
(1) the direct cost of the move itself (not really expensive)
(2) the cost of buying/renting in suburbs is high because the price of good schools is partly built in
(3) the opportunity cost of movement in terms of commuting may be very high, esp. for people depending on public transit

However, it seems clear to me the effect is stronger than just the effects above would produce. And there, I think the simplest explanation is racism. But that's not racism as in "evil white people who hate black people" so much as: that all people want to live in neighborhoods where there are lots of other people "like them", in whatever ways they perceive as important, with race being one of those. Hence, self-segregation. The fact that race is perceived by all people is "racist". But I'd not call that evil - it's just the way things are. Not being able to see race in our society, at this time, is a sign of singular stupidity.

So, segregation is happening due to both black "racism" as well as white "racism". White people certainly are reluctant to live in cities. There is a code for talking about this: "safety", and, yes "the schools". But black people are reticent to move out into lily-white burbs. They prefer burbs that have large black minorities. (I'd suggest this is not irrational.)

I'd even suggest that one aspect that people select for in deciding where to settle is the politics thereof. I know I live on a solidly Democratic street, where there were numerous Kerry signs (including my wife's), and zero Bush signs. (I live in Baltimore, within city limits.) My wife bought this place because, in part, she feels politically comfortable here.

My block is a perfect microcosm of Sailer's thesis. In addition to being solidly Democratic/liberal, there are no white kids I know of on my block who are school age. The residents are:
(a) a few senior citizens (all white), possibly original residents (block was built in the '40s)
(b) a hispanic woman and her grown daughter
(c) one white couple with one 2-year-old, another white single mother with ~4 year old, who is moving (I don't know where)
(d) many young educated single professional white women, mid-30s. (My wife was one of these until recently.)
(e) several black families including several school-aged kids

Of these, I don't know of any who would have voted for Bush other than possibly a few of the old people, none of whom I have met. The white fertility on my street is very low, and the vote almost entirely Democratic.

Where do you live? Do you not know couples who've gotten married, had kids, then moved to the burbs for the schools? If you do, then you have an anecdotal handle on Sailer's thesis.



#10897: — 12/12  at  06:18 PM
Nature vs. Nurture

I really just wanted to see if people would acknowledge the possiblity that nature played a role in testing and/or intelligence. It seems to me that some people who post here are not open to the possibility. Their mind is closed.

For those that do acknowledge the possibility, I don't really want to get into a actual debate about nature vs. nurture here, but I will make a couple of points.

1) Your upbringing does not seem typical even for white people. College admissions tests are giving to a very large sample of white students very few of which do much of anything except attend standard suburban public schools. They are not doing math flash cards at home or entering spelling contests. Most barely do the homework assigned to them, get B's, and are focused on socializing.

2) Trying to find the effect of racism, or lack thereof, on the academic performance of black people is difficult. However, one can observe the difference between the scores of east asians and hispanics. These two groups have somewhat similar experiences here in the US in term of their migration and their skin color. One would think they have experienced similar levels of racism. Yet we see very different sets of scores on admissions tests and the like. This would lead one to conclude something other than racism was causing this difference.

-d



's avatar #10899: PZ Myers — 12/12  at  07:06 PM
Yeah. Like culture.

Look, you're talking to a DST fan here. When I see people barking up the ol' nature vs nurture tree, I pretty much figure they don't know what they're talking about. I reject both—developmental information resides neither in genes nor environment exclusively, but is an emergent property of interactions between disparate developmental resources. Genes. Cytoplasmic factors. Culture. Environment. Maternal history. Imprinting. Accidents.

And don't even get me started on "intelligence". g is what you get when you want to pretend mind can be reduced to a simple linear scale, and again, it reflects a conceptual failing in the believer.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#10905: — 12/12  at  08:27 PM
Leonard, ... you could have simply said that wealth and income provide one more choices in housing, education, transportation, etc. SS, though, is arguing that there is something white about this. To answer your question, I have lived in large cities and saw people of all colors attempt to maximize the advantage for their children by moving to the suburbs. I would argue that this was not an effective strategy, as they often bring their baggage with them. I have also lived in rural areas where people of all colors move to semi-remote school districts to escape the 'bad' schools in towns of 20,000. Again not a particularly effective educational strategy. Good Calculus and Science teachers are few and far between in tiny schools.

SS is saying that the only people worth studying in these matters are white people, and that is an entirely inappropriate approach.



's avatar #10908: Chris Clarke — 12/12  at  08:43 PM
For the record, I am completely open to hearing evidence that there is a genetic component to intelligence, whatever the hell that is, and even that there may be differential appearances of said putative smarts gene in different ethnicities.

I don't think there's any such thing, but I'm open to hearing actual evidence.

The problem is, none of what's been "presented" here (to stretch the usual meaning of that word) constitutes anything close to evidence. What we have been offered here is a stated agenda - why are Black people dumber than whites? - and a whole raft of subsequent misrepresentations, confusions of slight statistical trends with ubiquitous states, and statements ex[posing the utter ignorance of the speaker.

For instance:

Trying to find the effect of racism, or lack thereof, on the academic performance of black people is difficult. However, one can observe the difference between the scores of east asians and hispanics. These two groups have somewhat similar experiences here in the US in term of their migration and their skin color. One would think they have experienced similar levels of racism. Yet we see very different sets of scores on admissions tests and the like.


The number of errors in the above is rather daunting. Let's just take two that I'm most familiar with: That the racism faced by Asians is roughly comparable to that faced by Blacks, and that Asians excel at obtaining high test scores despite this racism.

The first can be dismissed quickly. Asians have experienced and continue to experience heinous treatment based on their "race," with examples such as the Chinese Exclusion Acts and wartime relocation and individual hate crimes that continue to this day. But a quick application of two thought experiments - "bringing home the new boyfriend" and "who just bought the place next door?" - indicates to the intellectually honest prson that there's a marked difference between the treatment Asians receive in the US and that which Blacks receive.

The second is itself based on a racist assumption: Asians are a uniform people. The truth is, there is as wide a difference in test scores within the Asian communities as in the test-taking nation as a whole. Middle-class (or higher) people of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean descent have done very well on standardized tests and college entrance exams and such. The important modifier there is "middle-class." Cultures, even minority cultures, which place a premium on educational achievement tend to exhibit higher scores among their members - because parents and aunts and uncles and grandparents and siblings hound kids to study. Add to that the monetary means to aquire educational resources, and the test scores are explained, no genes necessary.

My (incidentally Chinese-American) wife is a grade school teacher in a poor neighborhood with a large Asian population. Plenty of the "superiorly intelligent" Asian kids in that school do poorly on tests, probably as poorly as the poorest of the African American kids. Some of them are of ethnicities without as strong an educational emphasis, and some of them have parents who prize education but who are too busy working two and a half shifts every day to make sure homework gets done, and some of them just fall into the anti-intellectualism so prevalent among the US poor of all colors and ethnicities.

Pretty much everthing I've said here about Asians can be said of Latinos: a diverse set of cultures subsumed under one artificial taxon; far more willingness among the mass culture to grant "honorary whiteness" to some members; differences in class standing and cutural attitudes about education; test scores all over the map (including at my wife's school.)

In other words, Daveg, your desire to prove that your prejudice against blacks is in some way supported by biology has led you far down the road into the Land of You Don't Know What You're Talking About. This has nothing to do with anyone's unwillingness to consider possibilities.. It has to do with our knowing a shoddy, dishonest argument when we see one.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#10909: — 12/12  at  08:48 PM
PZ writes:
Look, you’re talking to a DST fan here. When I see people barking up the ol’ nature vs nurture tree, I pretty much figure they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Well, I don't think anyone who has even briefly thought of the "nature/nurture" issue would seriously disagree that one's phenotype is due to an interaction between genetics and environment. Everyone from a raving commie to a neo-Nazi could agree that one's phenotype is the result of interaction between genetics and environment. I think it is perfectly fair to say that one's position can generally be characterized primarily in the "nature" camp or the "nurture" camp, or is somewhere in between.

Given our earlier exchange, I think it's hard to say your position is not what most people would characterize as strong nurturist viewpoint.

Me:
[It is crazy to believe that] if we just had a truly “fair” society, we could have a society in which people were basically equal. Or to put it another way, a society in which if we took 1000 random kids from South LA, or 1000 random white or Asian kids for that matter, and put them in the right environment, we could raise them all to be successful college students in the major of your choice.


PZ:
yes, we could take 1000 black kids, give them the right opportunities and the right environment, and make them all successful college students.

IMHO, it's ridiculous for someone who takes the position that 1000 random kids of any race could be raised to be successful college students in the major of your choice, to say that they are anything BUT a hardcore nurturist. That one's phenotype is due to an interaction between genetics and environment is a banality.



's avatar #10911: PZ Myers — 12/12  at  08:56 PM
Yes, 1000 kids of any race could be raised to be successful college kids. Of course, if you cripple them from the beginning with a lousy grade school education, or the prejudices of a bunch of people who think they're inferior from birth, then yes, we'll fail. Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#10913: — 12/12  at  09:05 PM
I rather doubt intelligence, whatever it is, can be reduced to a 'phenotype', like a smooth yellow pea. Oh well, this has been enlightening. I had no idea people were still investing so much energy in trying to justify their racism on some scientific basis. I guess I need to get out more. Good luck, Dr. Myers, trying to educate these people and thanks for the wake-up call. Sunlight is still a pretty powerful disinfectant.



#10914: — 12/12  at  09:15 PM
The number of errors in the above is rather daunting. Let’s just take two that I’m most familiar with: That the racism faced by Asians is roughly comparable to that faced by Blacks, and that Asians excel at obtaining high test scores despite this racism.

CC--I think Daveg's point was that Asians and Latinos have faced reasonably comparable levels of racism. Also, Daveg did not say that Asians have uniformly high scores--though Asians, and especially northeast Asians, do have substantially higher test scroes than Latinos, on average*. In fact, I believe the NE Asian/Latino gap is about as large as the black/white gap.

*Though I think when one says "group X scores higher than group Y," I think one can safely assume that one is speaking of averages--having to constantly add that qualifier can get irritating because it should be obvious that when one is speaking of group differences, they are referring to averages. I think we're out of 3rd grade here.



#10915: — 12/12  at  09:27 PM
phenotype: The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.

Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary, quoted in http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=phenotype

I think intelligence--and pretty much any charactersitc or group of characterists one can think of--fits this definition.



's avatar #10916: PZ Myers — 12/12  at  09:37 PM
Makes it a pretty darn useless definition, then.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#10917: — 12/12  at  09:43 PM
Yes, 1000 kids of any race could be raised to be successful college kids. Of course, if you cripple them from the beginning with a lousy grade school education, or the prejudices of a bunch of people who think they’re inferior from birth, then yes, we’ll fail. Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?


If this is the case, why hasn't anyone shown it? Couldn't you, Richard Lewontin, Atrios, and all your leftwing friends and supporters set up the leftwing equivalent of the Pioneer Fund and start a study with several hundred or thousand random kids, and raise them in a nurturing environment? If you could show some way to make 1000 competely random kids grow up to be successful physics majors (or even successful bio majors smile), the Bell Curvers would be defeated forever, and the designers of that study would probably win a Nobel Prize.



Page 3 of 4 pages « First  <  1 2 3 4 >

Next entry: Clever birds

Previous entry: Outages expected

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college