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Friday, September 30, 2005

Sam Harris…on dope

I have my doubts about Sam Harris. The Raving Atheist links to his latest essay.

He seems to get a fair amount of play as one of those outspoken atheists, but then everything I read by him turns out to have some bizarre twist that has me wondering what the heck he's been smoking. He writes weird stuff like this peculiar defense of "rational mysticism".

As a worldview, secularism has defined itself in opposition to the whirling absurdity of religion. Like atheism (with which it is more or less interchangeable), secularism is a negative dispensation. Being secular is not a positive virtue like being reasonable, wise, or loving. To be secular, one need do nothing more than live in perpetual opposition to the unsubstantiated claims of religious dogmatists. Consequently, secularism has negligible appeal to the culture at large (a practical concern) and negligible content (an intellectual concern). There is, in fact, not much to secularism that should be of interest to anyone, apart from the fact that it is all that stands between sensible people like ourselves and the mad hordes of religious imbeciles who have balkanized our world, impeded the progress of science, and now place civilization itself in jeopardy. Criticizing religious irrationality is absolutely essential. But secularism, being nothing more than the totality of such criticism, can lead its practitioners to reject important features of human experience simply because they have been traditionally associated with religious practice.

Hold it. He has just criticized secularism for being 'negative'…by being negative about secularism. How ironic of him.

His criticisms are completely off the mark, however. Why isn't secular a positive virtue? I certainly think of it as a very good thing; it's part of being reasonable and wise, and is not at all in contradiction to being loving. I hear the word "religious" as non-virtuous and in opposition to wisdom and reason…is my negative response sufficient argument?

He also sets up secularism as nothing but "perpetual opposition" to religion. That's complete nonsense, an unthinking acceptance of the definition used by the religious. Secularism is about reality. We accept our day-to-day existence, the empirical, observable, measurable, physical world as a worthy and important and all-encompassing feature of our lives, without reference to invisible, imaginary, immaterial, and inconsequential confabulations by the irrational. That's a very positive thing to do.

Negligible appeal? Since when are sex, food, conversation, books, entertainment, football, science, and fashion under the purview of religion? When these things are put under the control of the religious, that's when they lose their appeal. The ways of the flesh are always popular.

Negligible content? Harris has divided the domains of human concern into the religious (mumbo-jumbo, old books, strange and arbitrary rules, and bizarre beliefs about things no one has ever seen) and the secular (the whole freaking universe and all that dwells within it, science, history, literature, the seen and sensuous) and decided that all of the intellectual content is in the former.

What???

Up there at the top, I said I had my doubts about Harris. I was wrong. I have no doubts at all.

He's a dingbat.


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Comments:
's avatar #42316: John M. Price — 09/30  at  03:44 PM
For me, I actually like the terminology given us by a white house comment some months back: the Reality-based community.

I think it a perfectly fine, and even superior term, contrasting with the faith-based community construct so prevalent in common speech by the politicos of the day. It can lead one directly to the 'hold out two hands, wish in one, c*** in the other, which one fills up first' comments.



#42317: — 09/30  at  03:53 PM
tristero:

Thanks, but we were talking about the origin of the word, and the one I gave you is *the* origin of the word. The other meanings were added subsequently, and clearly still more can be added to it.



#42318: MJS — 09/30  at  03:55 PM
If you build a bridge in the future, why is it taken for granted that the bridge will be faulty?

PZ says: All words are going to carry this freight of historical baggage. If we're going to go shopping for new terms that are unencumbered, we're going to look forever, and no matter what we do, we're going to strike unintended notes. Look at that godawful alternative to "atheist" that some people came up with: "brights"? Aaargh. That was truly pukeworthy.

"...we're going to look forever, and no matter what we do, we're going to strike unintended notes." is as dogmatic a pronouncement as I have ever heard, one worthy of the Vatican. Heisenberg would urge caution here, I suspect.

Harris is slipshod as he does not (in my opinion) truly examine the floor of his own assumptions, but his attempt to sneak a peak into "rational mysticism" is rather interesting. It feels like when people of reason try to look at something irrational they are precluded from the normal avenues of inspection, i.e. the senses, because "there the eyes go not, nor the ears." Until "reason" can wrap its tendrils around the irrational in such a way as to include the illogical in its understanding of existence, it cannot enter "the sun door" but only blink and turn away.

btw: Jung suggested that "perfection cannot contain completion, but completion can contain perfection." To him, men tended towards "perfection" (the arrow) and women tended towards "completion" (the circle). The arrow cannot contain the circle, but the circle can contain all things, all concepts, all that is all. This idea, when extrapolated, can mean that as rationalists seek a perfection of understanding of the manifested universe they cannot find a mechanism (or viewpoint) that will contain all of its parts, whereas the somewhat "sloppier" POV--the POV of the circle, the circle that contains the coincidence of opposites, the rational and irrational--can and does.

You can't jump out of a box that doesn't exist. But she can.

+++



#42319: tristero — 09/30  at  04:02 PM
Hank Fox:

"The godders are already winning the battle over the popular-usage definition of 'theory.' Don't be the guy who helps them control the meaning of 'secular.' "

Far be it from me ever to give aid and comfort to the Philip Johnsons of the world! Just the opposite. (If you need an example of the contempt I hold these people in, go to google and enter inurl:tristero.blogspot.com "Creationism's Trojan Horse" which should point you to a review of Cross and Forrests excellent book. )

Unfortunately, the word began with them and that is the problem. Like it or not, the religious right were the ones who branded their opponents secularists, and these opponents accepted the label without quite getting what it meant historically. Like "pro-life" or "tax relief,"or "intelligent design" "secular" is something of a poison pill. Once you accept the terminology of the debate, you are arguing - literally! - on their terms. I think that is always a Very Bad Idea (tm).

It's not that the definition can't be flexible and change. Rather, I'm saying the effort to redefine it must be very conscious and very precise or else it will be confused with earlier meanings which are not what's meant by PZ Myers and others who use it to describe themselves.

Better yet, instead of having your enemies label you, I'd suggest some other term which doesn't have the baggage "secular" does. Other straegies can work, but you're fighting uphill. That is my only point.

BTW, I think the pushback on what "theory" means may be working better than you think. I've seen more and more non-scientist commentators distinguishing between the formal and colloquial definitions of the term.



#42320: tristero — 09/30  at  04:12 PM
Hank Fox:

"The godders are already winning the battle over the popular-usage definition of 'theory.' Don't be the guy who helps them control the meaning of 'secular.' "

Far be it from me ever to give aid and comfort to the Philip Johnsons of the world! Just the opposite. (If you need an example of the contempt I hold these people in, go to google and enter inurl:tristero.blogspot.com "Creationism's Trojan Horse" which should point you to a review of Cross and Forrests excellent book. )

Unfortunately, the word began with them and that is the problem. Like it or not, the religious right were the ones who branded their opponents secularists, and these opponents accepted the label without quite getting what it meant historically. Like "pro-life" or "tax relief,"or "intelligent design" "secular" is something of a poison pill. Once you accept the terminology of the debate, you are arguing - literally! - on their terms. I think that is always a Very Bad Idea (tm).

It's not that the definition can't be flexible and change. Rather, I'm saying the effort to redefine it must be very conscious and very precise or else it will be confused with earlier meanings which are not what's meant by PZ Myers and others who use it to describe themselves.

Better yet, instead of having your enemies label you, I'd suggest some other term which doesn't have the baggage "secular" does. Other straegies can work, but you're fighting uphill. That is my only point.

BTW, I think the pushback on what "theory" means may be working better than you think. I've seen more and more non-scientist commentators distinguishing between the formal and colloquial definitions of the term.


Aureola

I don't know that that was the origin of the word. That is not clear, even from the Latin derivation. Got a reference?

Of course, more definitions can be added. That's how the word came to refer to priests who were out in the world, by adopting the Latin word, if I remember correctly. My point is, why use a word your enemies used to define you? Sure, you can do so, but you're arguing uphill. And you better make it very clear exactly how you are using that word. With "secular," there's too much baggage imho, to make it worthwhile.



#42322: Jason Malloy — 09/30  at  04:53 PM
I don't like Sam Harris either. First of all, he subscribes to some Eastern Mysticism type beliefs that I find unscientific, and, AFAICT from my limited exposure to his writing, religious. Second he's an atheist of the blood-thirsty Christopher Hitchens neo-con variety, all too eager to align himself with Christian Fundamentalists and Jewish Fundamentalists in their scatological eschatological Holy War against Islam (as if they are pawns in "his war" and not vice versa). Third, he is even an advocate of torture - as if Abu Ghraib didn't further expose the moral poverty of such a position.

So it would seem he is really neither Secular nor Humanist.



#42324: — 09/30  at  05:22 PM
Maybe for Harris secularism is like the Tao . . . it does nothing, but through it all things are done.

Seriously: I think Harris and PZ and most of the sympathetic folks reading these posts have much more in common than not. Harris's point may be abstruse, even misguided, but really--is PZ seriously suggesting that Harris is slamming secularism? Is that warranted?



#42325: coturnix — 09/30  at  05:57 PM
Wow! I always understood the word 'secular' the way we understand it.

Until this thread I had no idea that the Religious Right understood it differently from us. Now, thanks to tristero, I see that we are (and we do this sooo often) and, as usual, we are totally unaware of it. Just see this thread - we have no idea what the term means in those circles. This is very important. This is the way they communicate with each other while BYPASSING our consciousness.

This is like mention of Dred Scott in the Prez debates last year. We thought it was a poorly chosen reference to an old Supreme Court case, until Paperwight jumped in an opened our eyes - it has a very specific, and highly emotionally charged meaning to the Religious fanatics of the AmTaliban. Bush was sneaking in a message - that he will appoint a Supreme Court judge who will overturn Roe - to his base constituency, while the whole coded exchange never hit our consciousness. We did not hear it because we had no idea what the coded language was, nor we even suspected that a coded language even existed.

This is like "climate change" mentioned above. Focus-group tested by Frank Luntz and chosen specifically to elicit emotions favored by the Administration, the term is so often used by scientists unaware of this dirty little fact, thus undermining their own testimony as they speak.

The same goes for "sound science", a term invented by tobacco industry to denote tobacco-industry-funded contrarian "science", produced in order to manufacture uncertainty about the harmfulness of cigarette smoking. The term has now been used by every lobby whose financial (or religious) interests are undermined by scientific information: global warming, mercury in fish, intelligent design creationism, WMDs in Iraq, etc. Utilizing the propensity of the media towards 'He said - She said' journalism, the manufacture of contrarian "data" instantly elevates the contrarian view to the same level as the broad scientific consensus.

In my mind, and I gather from the comments above in many of our minds, the word 'secular' has no other meaning than something akin to "irrespective of religion", as in "Turkey is a secular state", or "Shia areas are very Islamic, Sunni areas are a patchwork, and Kurdish areas are secular".

The poorly-chosen term "Bright" was a conscious effort to invent a new word BECAUSE every existing term (secular, humanist, atheist, agnostic, etc.) has the same baggage - it is a negative version of religiosity. It does not have its own positive meaning irrespective of religion. It is either "opposed to" and "lacking in" religion. I thought that "secular" was the positive word, but apparently it is not.

Terms like 'realist' or 'rationalist', of course, have their precise meanings in philosophy and although 99.999999999% of the population has no clue, the philosophers would object to elevation of these terms to their common usages. I have no problem using the common meaning of those terms as they are positive. The religious are the ones who have to deal with negatives: irrational, unreal (surreal!).



#42328: — 09/30  at  07:30 PM
Sam Harris' piece appears in this month's "Free Inquiry" magazine; the cover story consists of about 40 responses from scientists, philosophers, and various pundits to the question "Will secularism survive?" As might be expected from reading this thread, even among the selected experts the meaning of "secularism" goes all over the place. Many of the commentators even begin with variations of "well, that depends on how it is defined..."

From what I can tell, the most popular definition -- either explicit or implied -- is that which represents the political stance asserting that government should neither favor nor prohibit any particular view on religion, and that laws deal only with matters of this present world, thereby protecting the liberty and freedom of conscience of religious and non-religious alike.

When used in this sense, "secularism" is indeed defined against the opposite position of "religionism" or various forms of theocracy -- mixing government and god. However, deeply devout people can now also be "secularists." Many are -- because of their fundamental respect for religious choice, and their desire to keep it free from state entanglement.

Imo, defining secularism as a political position (and not a position on the truth or value of religion as such) makes the most sense. We need a term to express those who favor the separation of church and state, and this usage appears to be getting more and more common. It is in the interest of the Religious Right to blur the distinction between being against government/majority endorsement of religion and being an atheist. If they can convince the general public that one stance entails the other, they will win.



#42334: Jim Harrison — 10/01  at  12:20 AM
The distinction that matters politically is between people who think that religious ideas should be optional and personal and those who insist they ought to be obligatory and enforced by formal or informal social sanctions. Lots of people in highly secular societies continue to believe in God. The content of their beliefs doesn't matter very much, however, so long as the belief remains a matter of individual choice, something more like having a hobby than belonging to a family.



#42335: ¡El Gato Negro! — 10/01  at  01:24 AM
He also sets up secularism as nothing but "perpetual opposition" to religion. That's complete nonsense, an unthinking acceptance of the definition used by the religious.

Si, as eef to say...

I, ¡El Gato Negro! am non-pregnant.

¿What? joo mean to say there are only 2 states of being, and non-pregnant, she ees the less-common one?

So, have-eeng no belief een los Dios, eet ees like being non-pregnant.

Because, as everyone knows, pregnancy, she ees the common state of all beings, no?

so.



#42336: — 10/01  at  02:34 AM
It's as though we didn't have the handy word "health", and had to describe the ambulatory majority as "non-sick". In fact, among those infected with irrational beliefs it's a commonplace that those who don't share theirs must subscribe to something worse. It appears to be inconceivable that one might simply be free of such a malady.

From a marketing point of view, it's hard to come up with something better than "freethinker". It joins a strong positive adjective to a strong verb, and what's the alternative available to the credulous?



#42340: — 10/01  at  06:19 AM
Harris wrote that there is not much to secularism other than that it is all that stands between us and the end of civilization. Sounds tongue-in-cheek to me, along the lines of "other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"



's avatar #42341: — 10/01  at  07:34 AM
"Secular" (Spanish seglar) comes from the Latin saeculum - generation, age. Tristero is right, it is an Ecclesiatical term, referring to non-religious issues, and later, to Church people who dealt with the worldly, material, monetary, political and non-spiritual affairs of the Church. The "Secular" (temporary) is meaningless without its counterpart the "Spiritual" (eternal). If we negate the existence of a "spiritual", "trascendental", "eternal", "divine" world (as I do), all that remains is the "secular", that is, the ordinary and natural universe we all know.

Recently I toured an old monastery in Ecuador and it had a separate entrance for "seglares", to avoid contaminating the purity of the monks.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#42342: velid — 10/01  at  08:50 AM
The quote you give is pretty good evidence that Harris is a dingbat. Negligible appeal to the culture at large sounds like a marketing concern. Or perhaps he is concerned about popularity? I don't think either criterion has much existential relevance to whether or not I should choose to live a secular life. In fact, I would have only contempt for someone whose choice of beliefs was determined in any significant way by perceptions of marketability and popularity. The very definition of inauthenticity.

Secularism, as Myers points out, is in fact a very active engagement with reality and nature that is for me an essential part of a satisfying life. Harris' definition is not worth taking seriously and has gone a long way toward convincing me that he is not worth taking seriously. It pisses me off that half-baked atheists like him capture so much public space.



#42343: Keith Douglas — 10/01  at  08:54 AM
coturnix: realism has a well defined philosophical meaning? Heh. I used to avoid calling myself a realist because there are too many versions of realism so the word was uninformative.

Incidentally, the suggestion that we should avoid words with shades of meaning that poison the well runs into problems in the other direction. The churches and other prior sociocultural authorities are those who have made interesting words like Epicurean, materialist, skeptic (to some extent), naturalist, etc. have negative connotations. Even the "bright" didn't come free from bagge - it had the connotation of "intelligent" so, "nerdly" or whatever. Or by exclusion, "not-stupid" whence everyone else is "stupid".

I think the only solution is to be aware that people may have different "rhetorical halos" to them and when writing try to learn what they will be in advance, or when speaking to adjust to the audience. Difficult, but unavoidable it seems. It might also get us (in technical contexts, at any rate) more sensitive to doing some of the things I suggested once in a paper on word choice: being careful with stipulative definitions, ostension/referition, etc. (See my web site if you are interested.)



's avatar #42344: PZ Myers — 10/01  at  08:58 AM
It's all true that the word "secular" has baggage, but as I've said, every word has baggage, unless you want to invent one out of whole cloth (and even then, it will rapidly acquire unintended baggage).

So what word should we use?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#42346: coturnix — 10/01  at  09:10 AM
Don't know. Freethinker, rationalist, realist and naturalist sound better than alternatives, baggage and all.



#42347: coturnix — 10/01  at  09:11 AM
From the Brights net:

ANTONYM POLL RESULTS ARE IN

Brights Central received serious pleas that, for pragmatic reasons, we should
have and use a term that is opposite to the noun "bright." Thus, Brights Central
initiated a mini-project to obtain an appropriate noun with which to identify
persons whose worldview does incorporate supernatural and/or mystical elements.
We would then use it to refer to "non-Brights" in communications and published
articles.

Almost 1,000 Brights voted in the poll for an appropriate antonym. Receiving 45%
of the total votes was -- supernaturalists, which garnered over four times the
second place etherians.

It looks like the phrase to use is: brights and supernaturalists.



#42348: coturnix — 10/01  at  09:13 AM
Keith - you are right. It was clutzy writing - the definition pertained to Rationalist, not realist (which is a grab-bag of meanings).



#42412: — 10/01  at  08:37 PM
The etymology of "secular" that Tristero cites may reflect Oxford University's history as a church institution - and some of its baggage is quite handy.

My cheap little Webster's on a CD sayeth:
[ME, fr. OF seculer, fr. LL saecularis, fr. saeculum the present world, fr. L, generation, age, century, world; akin to W hoedl lifetime] (14c)

- signifying literally that "secular" things are part of time .

Fine with me: let Jehovah & his ilk remain "outside of time", while those of us with our lives full of temporal things do what we have to do.

As for the baggage, I hope all of those who may read this in the US are carrying at least a little of it. Pull out your collection of dead presidents and scan the banner beneath that psychedelic Masonic pyramid on the back of a $1.

"Novus Ordo Seclorum" - usually rendered as "New World Order", perhaps more accurately "A New Order in the Ages" (i.e., history). However you want to define it, it was visibly part of the agenda of The Founding Fathers.

Asking your friendly neighborhood christocrat-wrapped-in-a-flag to correlate this with his or her rant against "secularism" should lead to either a hard pratfall or an entertaining dance, possibly a leap into hyperspace should they choose to explore that "Masonic" dimension.

(Pls use this gambit sparingly, or the Busheviks will find it necessary to redesign the dollar bill.)

Considered scientifically, time does not exist separately but as part of spacetime. That's a convenient boundary: secularists should have no difficulty with conceding the rest to all who claim it.



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