Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Tuesday, September 27, 2005

Sinners in the hands of an angry phantasm

I knew it all along.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Now, to be fair, I don't think this necessarily says that being religious is bad for the individual; it's just not good for a culture. I also think it's a bit sweeping in associating these ills with religious belief in general, because the US is afflicted with particularly malignant forms of religion (and at the root, the problem may not be religion itself, but irrationality and anti-intellectualism and ignorance, something our country has in volume). On the other hand, countries with more traditional religions also seem to have some serious problems (who knew Portugal was such a mess?).

But heck yeah, it seems obvious to me that if you base national policy on pious ignorance and the low-rent tribal power fantasies of a bronze-age gang of thugs, you're not going to cope well with the real issues of a modern pluralist society.

Here's some of the data, correlating god-belief with homicide rates and mean life expectancy. That little "U" that's typically floating off by itself as an outlier (and not on the good side) is us.

A = Australia
C = Canada
D = Denmark
E = Great Britain
F = France
G = Germany
H = Holland
I = Ireland
J = Japan
L = Switzerland
N = Norway
P = Portugal
R = Austria
S = Spain
T = Italy
U = United States
W = Sweden
Z = New Zealand
image image

(via Omniorthogonal)


I've noticed that a few people are freaking out over this study, and are in denial. Mostly it is because they are misinterpreting it; it does not say that if you believe in God, you will get an abortion and start murdering strangers. It says that prevalent god-belief in a culture does not discourage that sort of behavior, and that more secular societies are clearly not hotbeds of sin and corruption.

If the data showed that the U.S. enjoyed higher rates of societal health than the more secular, pro-evolution democracies, then the opinion that popular belief in a creator is strongly beneficial to national cultures would be supported. Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developing democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data - a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends.

Why this should be triggering such knee-jerk antipathy is a mystery to me; is denying the efficacy of religion and the perfection of American society, and providing evidence for same, such a horrifying idea to people? Apparently, it is.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3007/61hLodZH/

Comments:
#41818: Elyas Bakhtiari — 09/27  at  08:50 AM
"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
- Jon Stewart



#41819: — 09/27  at  08:51 AM
But heck yeah, it seems obvious to me that if you base national policy on pious ignorance and the low-rent tribal power fantasies of a bronze-age gang of thugs, you're not going to cope well with the real issues of a modern pluralist society.


What a beautiful sentence. Another example of why I love reading Pharyngula.



#41820: — 09/27  at  09:02 AM
Turkey is about the closest to a prosperous Islamic democracy we are going to find. Stretching the meaning of prosperous and democracy almost to breaking I admit.



#41823: — 09/27  at  09:15 AM
I missed the filtering for prosperous democracy.That was sloppy, sorry.
The words prosperous islamic democracy just do not even belong in the same sentence at present.
I would of liked to see the data for Turkey in there, it may become an EEC member so it is the closest thing to prosperous and islamic.



#41824: — 09/27  at  09:17 AM
I think we need to consider not only how religious the general populace of a nation is but how influential religion is in forming national policy and government decisions. Someone here mentioned that Spain has a very religious populace but I think the difference between Spain and the US is that the US has a much more militant religious wing that has a larger influence on policy formation. For instance, I believe, Spain legalized (or was seriously considering legalizing) homosexual marriages recently - the US would never even dream of doing this and in fact is trying to ban them with a constitutional amendment. What this shows is that in Spain Secularism wins out over superstition and religion amongst the nation's leaders and policymakers. This is certainly not the case in the US where Religion (paticularly fundementalist Christainity) seems to be a cornorstone of Bush Administration policy. So I think that it really depends on the militancy of the religion in a nation. The level of Dogmatism is key, I believe, because that is the nasty part of religious belief and that is the root of all the anti-intellectualism and anti-science.



#41825: Alon Levy — 09/27  at  09:18 AM
When is this study's data from? The USA's murder rate hasn't been more than 6/100,000 since 1998. The only two countries whose life expectancies I remember, the USA (77) and Japan (81), have life expectancies an entire year more than what is given in the study.



#41827: Joseph ODonnell — 09/27  at  09:31 AM
Isn't that what I just said?


Wibbly wibbly D:

Indeed it was, I was responding to someone else however :p So I can claim innocence, innocence I tell you!



#41828: Martin Brazeau — 09/27  at  09:32 AM
Interesting side-note: the article is written by Greg Paul, a well-known dinosaur/prehistoric life illustrator. He's noted for his very active "dancing" dinosaur poses. He's a proponent of the view that dinosaurs like Velociraptor are actually secondarily flightless birds, or are at least more crownward than Archaeopteryx.



#41829: beajerry — 09/27  at  09:39 AM
I like your comment about "malignant forms" of religion. That is very true. Religious symbols that were formed 2000 or 4000 years ago are pretty friggin' useless now. And all these religious idiots keep trying to cram them down people's throats. Who wants to eat 2000 year old mummy jerky?
Religious symbols need to be re-valuated every so often for modern use. This means teaching people not to be so metaphorically challenged.



#41830: — 09/27  at  09:41 AM
I dunno, did the researchers control for Geriniol exposure? If not, the effects could have confounded their results:

"Gerin oil (or Geriniol to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug which acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self- damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions which have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of 11th September were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time. Historically, Geriniol intoxication was responsible for atrocities such as the Salem witch hunts and the massacres of native South Americans by conquistadores. Gerin oil fuelled most of the wars of the European middle ages and, in more recent times, the carnage that attended the partitioning of the Indian subcontinent and, on a smaller scale, Ireland."

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7036



#41831: The Commissar — 09/27  at  09:45 AM
Is the Journal of Religion and Society peer-reviewed?

What is its published impact factor?

Is the author a social scientist?

You know, I hate it when non-experts, like Demski, spout pseudo-science in those Creationist, so-called academic journal, on topics outside their fields.



#41832: — 09/27  at  09:45 AM
2. What's with Denmark? It too has a life expectancy more in line with the Soviet Union, even though it is, like Sweden and Norway, one of the most progressive countries in Europe.


Heavy smoking and too much drinking is the main reasons for that. It's a pretty big issue, and is something a lot of resources are being spent on correcting, but obviously it will be years before there will be measurebly changes.

I would say that very few of the graphs actually show any connections between religion and the things measured. Two sets of graphs do though - the ones dealing with the number of abortions and teen births. Here the sexual education of the country have a big influence, and it's no secret that the US sex-ed is heavily influenced by the religous right.

I remember back to when I went to school, we had pretty good sex-ed when we were 12 or so, and it was possible to get condoms at the school for free (and you didn't have to ask for them, they were placed so you could get them, without anyone knowing about it).



#41833: — 09/27  at  09:50 AM
Gerin oil, you will notice, is an anagram of religion.



#41834: The Commissar — 09/27  at  09:51 AM
Is the Journal of Religion and Society peer reviewed?

What is its publication impact factor?

Is the author a social scientist?

Do you accept Creationist studies from non-peer reviewed, low impact factor articles written by "scientists" from other disciplines?



#41835: coturnix — 09/27  at  09:53 AM
Dawkins is very funny. But he misses the point that it is a symptom that reinforces the cause, not a cause itself.



#41836: Elyas Bakhtiari — 09/27  at  09:55 AM
Is it just me, or is this study based mostly on assumptions and ambigious data? Granted, it raises important questions, such as why DOES the U.S. have such high crime rates compared to the rest of the developed world. But implying causation from this inconclusive correlation is no different than saying pirates keep the Earth cool because statistical data can show that, as the number of pirates roaming the seas has decreased over the last century, global temperatures have increased.



#41837: — 09/27  at  09:56 AM
'For example, note Spain which is a heavily Catholic country and compare it against New Zealand. They are more religious than we are (not that the authors bothered to quantify what degree of religiousity was significantly different) and have far less murders and higher life expectancy. Same thing with Italy and several other countries'

Spain is certainly not more religious than the USA. It's more of a 'cultural' religion rather than a guiding religion.



#41838: — 09/27  at  10:06 AM
Is the Journal of Religion and Society peer reviewed?


Yes, or at least so they say on the journal's main web-page.

"The Journal of Religion & Society is a refereed academic journal dedicated to the publication of scholarly research in religion and its diverse social dimensions. All submissions to the journal will be subject to blind peer review."



#41839: — 09/27  at  10:08 AM
Uber has a point. Lots of Catholic countries (Spain, France, Italy, etc.) have more of a "lip service" religiosity in their populous. Few people outside of little old ladies take religion seriously. If you ask them in a survey if they believe in God they'll say "yes", but it's different than in the USA. Here in the USA, there are lots of highly dogmatic Christians who vote their religion.



#41840: Adam Ierymenko — 09/27  at  10:09 AM
One more point...

Some posters have mentioned Pol Pot, the USSR under Stalin, Hitler, etc. Leaving aside the question of whether Hitler was an atheist, a Christian, an occultist/new ager, or some bizarre schizophrenic combination thereof...

When I look at human history, something really jumps out. All the examples that I know of of major large-scale evil were driven and/or rationalized through ideologies with one common characteristic: a dogmatic insistence that they hold some special or exclusive claim to truth.

Communism, at least of the militant "red" form, was very dogmatic. Hitler taught a highly dogmatic form of racial nationalism. ... and of course religions such as Islam and Christianity are highly dogmatic.

So what really jumps out at me is that dogmatic ideology and the *kind of thinking* that it encourages is a Very Bad Thing, regardless of whether the dogma teaches that there is or is not a supreme being.

Note that I emphasized "kind of thinking." I think that dogmatic ideology tends to relate to a kind of psychosis. Whether the arrow of causation runs from dogmatism to psychotic tendencies or the other way (or both ways) is an open question.

Note that the USSR, Hitler, Europe in the middle ages, modern-day Christian Dominionists, and Islamists *all* absolutely *despise* objective evidence-based science. If you doubt this, search for these combinations of terms:

nazi "jewish science"
ussr lysenko
galileo
republican war on science

Here's a link to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

They dispise evidence-based thinking because it pokes holes in their bubbles. Note the way fundie Christians squirm and react emotionally when you show them a transitional fossil and compare it to how a doctrinaire Marxist reacts when you tell them about Shenzhen:

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200008/28/eng20000828_49109.html

The final dogma: all dogmatic thought must be destroyed.



#41841: — 09/27  at  10:13 AM
Same thing with Italy and several other countries.


Italy is NOT a more religious country than the US. Recent studies show that Italians are much more likely to accept the fact of evolution, not to go to Church expect on Holdiays (observance is a key factor in measuring one's degree of religiosity methinks), more accepting of teenage sexuality, teen pregancy is enormously low becuase of condom use and so on and on.

More importantly, having lived over here for five years I can assure you that Italian religiosity is of a radically different type than the fundamentlist authoritariansm that is common in the US. Italians are overwhelmingly Catholic but disgree with the Pope on just about everything. They think of Americans as Puritans and can't understand why Americans get so damned riled up about seeing some gorgeous naked men and women on the television and newpapers.

The Spanish are leaning even more toward secularization than Italians. Zapatero is considered satan by la Santa Chiesa over here.

So the comparison is between seculalarist and secularizing Western Europe and the fundamentalist US.



#41843: Ricardo Azevedo — 09/27  at  10:14 AM
I'm suspicious of the data, although I haven't had time to go through the paper very carefully. I'm Portuguese and there's a general perception that our big neighbor is actually more religious than we are. Those who've ever been in Spain during Easter will know what I'm talking about...



#41845: Ricardo Azevedo — 09/27  at  10:25 AM
I'm somewhat suspicious of the data, although I haven't had time to go through the paper very carefully. I'm Portuguese and, while I would readily admit that Portugal is indeed a mess as someone put it, there is a general feeling that our big neighbor is actually more religious than we are. Anyone who has been in Spain during Easter will know what I'm talking about. In any event, Portugal (or any other European country I know, for that matter) is certainly nowhere near the US in religiosity: maybe 50 years ago, but not now.



#41847: — 09/27  at  10:35 AM
No one is claiming that the sole cause of societal dysfunction is religion. The paper limited the analysis to a subset of countries to minimize the number of variables, which is a perfectly reasonable, even necessary, thing to do.


When you have an almost infinite number of uncontrolled variables (differing histories,population densities, racial/ethnic makeups, geographies, etc,. etc.) it doesn't help to limit your sample size in order to eliminate a few variables. If they really wanted to try to study religion in isolation, they should have taken as many data points as they could (rather than arbitrarily cherry picking a few that supported their hypothesis) and then tried to correlate different measures with religious faith, hoping the other variables would cancel themselves out over the long average. As it stands, with this terrible correlation (on which they didn't do statistics because it wouldn't support their conclusions, don't kid yourself) you can't draw any conclusions other than the journal must be desperate for submissions. There's good social science, and there's bad social science. This study clearly fits into the latter category, but since it says something controversial, the popular media will pounce on it. And of course, when it gets (rightfully) decimated by the supporters of religion, it will just be another blow to the respectability of science.



#41848: Joseph ODonnell — 09/27  at  10:43 AM
Italy is NOT a more religious country than the US.


Never claimed they were. I'm a New Zealander so I was reffering to my country in comparison with Italy and Spain, who ARE more relgious than 'us' (New Zealand ;)). We're even worse for religion than either of them down here, heck, when a bunch of creationists dumped DI propaganda on schools they just binned the junk and ignored it. No public rows, only a single report in one newspaper and pretty much nobody else cared (Oh and the usual condemnation from the scientific establishment, which everyone ignored, because well, as I said, nobody down here cares about ID we have better things to do with limited resources, like actual science).

I was comparing those countries with mine not America.



Page 2 of 6 pages  <  1 2 3 4 >  Last »

Next entry: Edward Daley

Previous entry: Great pelagic orgies!

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college