Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Monday, December 19, 2005

Steyn, oblivious

I think I've got them frightened. Denyse O'Leary objects to criticism in her latest.

In a column that is, generally, about attempts to strip Christmas, and society in general, of religious content, Canadian columnist Mark Steyn mentions that he is one of the latest targets of P.Z. Myers, a Darwin Street heavy who recently went after Dilbert cartoonist Scott Adams.

"Targets"? "Went after"? A "Darwin Street heavy"? You'd think I'd sent over a couple of goons to rough them up instead of writing a couple of blog posts that took apart their ideas. They are delicate flowers, this new breed of creationist; only a brute would trouble himself to criticize their confabulations, which really ought to be left to waft in the delicate breezes produced by sighs and coos of their admirers. Facts and reality are so callous, so antagonistic to their muse.

It's true that I "went after" Mark Steyn. He wrote a ridiculous column that I rebutted way back in September—so he really isn't my "latest target". I've been baying at many other targets since, and really, all I had done was give him a stink-eyed sideways glance once. I'm gratified that he found it so memorable that he had to return to it many months later, but let's have some proper perspective here.

Since Steyn mentions me in his latest column (but no link, no hint about where to find the actual text of my criticism), I suppose I should follow suit and rebut him again. It's hard, though; his column is remarkably incoherent, flitting from the usual "atheists are bad, just look at Marx" to "John Lennon sucks" to "religion is morally superior because atheists have nothing to keep them in line" to "uh, well, except if that religion is Islam, and we need good Christian soldiers to fight them" to "Europe sucks and is doomed" to whining about me to "get used to living in a Texas/Utah style Christian dominion".

Conservatives don't actually pay any attention to this guy, do they?

Anyway, let's just focus on the bit where Steyn replies to my argument. Here's a fragment that I thought was particularly revealing. In his original column from several months ago, he said this:

Some geneticist had pointed out that man (and woman, oops) is 89% identical to the pumpkin. If that's so, then clearly it's the 11% difference that's key, not the 89% similarity.

My rebuttal pointed out some outright errors of fact in his argument, in particular that his numbers are wacky.

We aren't 89% identical to a pumpkin. If you use a very loose determination of homology (so loose, that mice and people are nearly 100% identical, having the same suite of genes), we're about 20-25% homologous to plants.

Here's the cute thing. In his latest, Steyn basically reuses his old article with no recognition of the corrections, except this:

I'd just been told that not only does man share 98.5 per cent of his genetic code with the chimp but he shares 75 per cent of it with the pumpkin.

He has fudged his numbers down from 89% to 75%, but both numbers are still wrong; and it's not as if he has just erred in his recollection, because he's citing my post, which includes the quote from his original article.

I think we can safely say at this point that Steyn is just pulling "facts" out of his ass. He's just making it up as he goes. In my reality-based part of the universe, that is one of those things that pretty well says we could just ignore everything he writes.

And really, the rest of his argument, besides being a sloppy hodge-podge, is just as fallacious. He points to the differences between organisms as somehow supporting his point of the intrinsic and unquestionable superiority of humankind. He doesn't seem to recognize the symmetry of the differences: if I am 1.5% different from a chimpanzee, the chimpanzee is also 1.5% different from me. All science can measure here is a difference, not whether one is "superior" to another…and if anything, since we're all equally children of a long history of evolution, we'd have to say that each are roughly equally fit to their role in nature.

He also doesn't seem to understand that my earlier argument against his blind and dangerous human-centric vision was not a claim that people should value flatworms more than other people; it was that we are dependent on all these other organisms on the planet.

All I was doing was making a simple point about the scale of man's domination, and all Professor Myers's demolition does is confirm it. My intestinal bacteria may indeed be doing a swell job, but living in my gut isn't exactly a beach house at Malibu. Yes, I've got wooden furniture. I live in the Great North Woods and the house and practically everything in it is made from those woods. But I sit on the chair, the chair doesn't sit on me. And as for my excreta and the hard-working nematode, who gets the better end of that deal?

All he sees is that he has bent some tiny pieces of nature to his will—he can have a tree chopped down and shaped into a cradle for his selfish butt, so he is the master. He doesn't realize that his comfort is dependent on the existence of a whole complex ecology, a forest, and that his "dominion" is actually a reliance on this elaborate other world to which he closes his eyes. As for his gut flora, I'd be surprised if he has never experienced a situation in which they stop doing their "swell job"; heaving bowels and explosive diarrhea are just the thing to stir up a little more respect for the buggers. The food he eats, the air he breathes are all products of the biological world, not just human effort.

Somehow, from there he abruptly segues into a strangely cynical pro-religion tirade. This must be what pleased Denyse O'Leary so much.

In the same way, assume that there was no baby in the manger, no virgin birth, no resurrection. A rationalist ought still to be able to conclude that, as a societal model, Christianity is more rational than Eutopian secularism. If Matthew, Mark, Luke and John cooked the whole racket up, it's nevertheless a stroke of genius to anchor the whole phony-baloney rigmarole in the birth of a child and his triumph over death. Whether or not there is a hereafter, new life is our triumph over death here on Earth. A religiosity centred on eternal life will by definition be a more efficient organising principle for an enduring society than a secularism focused on the here and now, with 'no other place yet to come', as Polly Toynbee puts it. The intestinal bacteria might as well pack up and go home.

There's a peculiar notion, the idea that mooning about over an afterlife that doesn't exist is by definition more efficient than a secular society. How? Why should I believe that? Does Steyn also believe that a planned central economy is more efficient by definition than capitalism, and does that mean it is more efficient in practice? Secularism has a history of working very, very well, as the United States and Canada and modern Europe show. Where is this highly efficient religious state that we should admire and model ourselves after?

Oh. It's Texas and Utah.

What's so rational about putting yourself out of business? On both sides of the Atlantic, the godly will inherit the Earth: in the United States, blue-state birthrates mean that in 20 years America will look a lot less like John Kerry's Massachusetts and a lot more like Texas and Utah; Europe will look a lot less like an Amsterdam sex club and a lot more like Clichy-sous-Bois. Post-Christian Europe will also be post-European. If you're cool with that, fine. If you're not, you might want to rethink the lazy slurs about America's 'neo-fascist' religiosity. Merry Christmas. Happy Eid.

No, I don't want to live in Bible-belt Texas or Mormon Utah. But I better not say so, because if I were to suggest that I disliked their neo-fascist religiosity, when they take over they'll…what? Exercise their nonexistent neo-fascist religiosity on me? Steyn has a real talent for self-contradiction and inconsistency. It's a mystery how he gets paid for it—I wouldn't have thought stupidity was a commodity of any value at all, it's so common.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3586/wEoTPzKi/

Comments:
#54143: — 12/19  at  08:39 AM
I would guess that Steyn thinks homology = difference.

PZ Myers says that humans and plants share approximately 20-25% homology. Therefore, according to Steynmathematics, humans and pumpkins are 75% identical.



's avatar #54145: PZ Myers — 12/19  at  08:45 AM
It couldn't possibly be that simple and stupid, could it?

Oh, wait. Steyn. I suppose it could.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#54146: — 12/19  at  08:50 AM
A religiosity centred on eternal life will by definition be a more efficient organising principle for an enduring society than a secularism focused on the here and now, with 'no other place yet to come', as Polly Toynbee puts it. The intestinal bacteria might as well pack up and go home.

1) I'm confused. Is Ms. O'Leary contrasting two "religiosities" here, one centered on eternal life, the other on intestinal bacteria? Sure, I'm grateful to the little guys, but I draw the line at saying "Ave Bacteria, gratia plena".
2) Ms. O'Leary seems to have forgotten that the intestinal bacteria in our guts are at home already. And it's a good thing too, most of the time.



#54147: — 12/19  at  09:06 AM
Ms. O'Leary obviously suffers from too many happy intestinal bacteria in her gut, given all those intellectual "post-Darwinist" beans she's been ingesting. No wonder PZ got wind of her.



#54150: — 12/19  at  09:20 AM
I have no trouble believeing that O'Leary's and Steyn's heads are 89% identical to the pumpkin. Clearly the 11% difference consists largely of their writing ability.

Clearly, most pumpkins are quite a bit more clearheaded than these two, and yet these geniuses brag about being 11% dumber than pumpkins. Wierd. Accurate but still wierd.



Cheers,

Naked Ape



#54152: — 12/19  at  09:25 AM
Ave, B. longum, full of lactate; my gut teems with thee. Blessed art thou amongst gram-positive bacteria, and blessed is the fruit of thy fructose-6-phosphate shunt.

B. longum, friendly intenstinal fauna, catabolize our oligosaccharides now and in the hour of digestion. Amen.



#54153: John in DC — 12/19  at  09:29 AM
But I sit on the chair, the chair doesn't sit on me.


True, but a tree can drop a limb on him.

/irrelevant arguments



#54154: mark — 12/19  at  09:34 AM
That remark about blue-state birthrates reminds me of political ads in the papers a few years back. They may not have mentioned the party or even the position vied for, but seemed to base their strongest argument on the fecundity of the candidate's wife. "Vote for me!--My wife has born 6 kids!"; "No, vote for me!--My wife makes yeast look like reproductive pikers!"



#54155: Adam Ierymenko — 12/19  at  09:34 AM
As much as I can't stand these fools, I do think there is something to one of their arguments:


What's so rational about putting yourself out of business? On both sides of the Atlantic, the godly will inherit the Earth: in the United States, blue-state birthrates mean that in 20 years America will look a lot less like John Kerry's Massachusetts and a lot more like Texas and Utah; Europe will look a lot less like an Amsterdam sex club and a lot more like Clichy-sous-Bois. Post-Christian Europe will also be post-European. If you're cool with that, fine. If you're not, you might want to rethink the lazy slurs about America's 'neo-fascist' religiosity. Merry Christmas. Happy Eid.


All successful relgions are at their root fertility cults. The phrase "family values" is partly a euphamism for fertility. The most common slurs against the nonreligious are essentially slurs to the effect that our fertility is weak.

I am an atheist (as anyone who has read any of my previous posts knows), and I know I'm going to get flak for saying this, but I think that they are right when it comes to this specific point. It is the only recurring criticism of secularists that I think is valid.

Any group that bows out of the evolutionary race by not procreating (career before family) and not defending itself (pacifism) is doomed to be outbred and outfought by virile and self-righteous groups. To be completely honest, I think we need a bit more virility and self-righteousness.

I don't think that the problem is with atheism per se. The problem is with the dichotomy between the moral and the practical and between intrinsicism/mysticism and skepticism that is rooted in classical philosophy. In short, classical philosophy sets up the following choice: intrinsicisim/mysticism and morality vs. moral relativism and universal skepticism. Ever since Greece civilizations have followed a pattern like this:

1) Religion and tradition based slow growth
2) Enlightenment and rise of secularism
3) Growth in technology, population, military power, etc.
4) Rise of universal skepticism, nihilism, moral relativism.
5) Collapse of fertility and defensive will.
6) Invasion and conquest by foreigners and/or rise of destructive religious fundamentalism.

Repeat cycle.

The only way out of this is to bridge the moral/practical divide and to therefore derive a defensible theory and "secular myth" of will, strength, fertility, and moral certainty from direct observation of life and physical reality.

While I don't think she was successful in the end, Ayn Rand had good things to say along these lines. I think she was going in the right direction.



#54157: — 12/19  at  09:50 AM
You live on Darwin St.? I used to live on Darwin St. in Santa Cruz. It was only two blocks long, where did you live? I could hear the surf and the sea lions from my house at night when it was quiet, can you?



#54158: — 12/19  at  09:52 AM
At the risk of sounding like an afficionado of Mark Steyn (which I'm not), I'm hard put to conclude there's nothing to the notion of human dominance. Every time you see bars separating chimpanzees and humans, the chimps are on the wrong side of said bars. The Professor is right to point out just how limited this dominance is; but, clearly, human beings manipulate and control nature more than their fellow critters (imperfectly of course, and with bad results as well as good). What any of this has to do with Steyn's bizarre effusions about religion is mysterious to me.



#54159: Mrs Tilton — 12/19  at  09:56 AM
Goodness, but Steyn and O'Leary are irritating. And what is especially irritating about them is their view of religion. It might seem odd that I say this, as they seem to be all for religion; while PZ Myers (for example) is dead set against it, and yet his views on the matter do not irritate me at all.

It comes down to this, though. I believe that what I believe is true, while PZ believes it's false. We simply disagree; I disagree with lots of people about lots of things, and it usually doesn't matter. Steyn and O'Leary, though, are less concerned about whether what I believe is true than about whether what I believe is useful (to them). If what I believe is false, their attitude is pretty insulting. If what I believe is true, it's even more insulting.



#54162: — 12/19  at  10:00 AM
Will you add the moniker, Darwin's Street Heavy, to you blog? Might be a cute intro line in your lectures.

O'Leary posted at 8:31 and almost three hours later there's 0 comments?!?



#54163: bill — 12/19  at  10:06 AM
Darwin Street 'heavy'?

PZ, you better lay off the cheesecake!



#54164: — 12/19  at  10:08 AM
Ierymenko, just to make sure we're all on the same page here -- you do realize that you've just recapitulated the basic political theory of fascism, right?

In any case, the whole idea is mooted by experience. The only effect of developing and enforcing a "secular myth" of "virility and self-righteousness ... will, strength, fertility, and moral certainty" is to create a cult-like form of social mysticism that, in its extreme, ends up looking like Triumph of the Will. Been there, done that, got the war crimes tribunals.

But, then, the Enlightenment is under attack from all sides these days, innit?



#54165: — 12/19  at  10:15 AM
It's really a matter of defining 'dominance' in human terms, as in 'having power over', rather than biological/ecological ones. Clearly bacteria are 'dominant' in the latter sense. It would only take a worldwide pandemic of a lethal, antibiotic-resistant strain to indicate they can be 'dominant' in the other sense too.



#54169: — 12/19  at  10:22 AM
Oh, yeah all that stuff about Texass and Utah is just Steyn's phoney baloney justification for wantin' to marry his cuz.



#54170: Adam Ierymenko — 12/19  at  10:26 AM

Ierymenko, just to make sure we're all on the same page here -- you do realize that you've just recapitulated the basic political theory of fascism, right?

In any case, the whole idea is mooted by experience. The only effect of developing and enforcing a "secular myth" of "virility and self-righteousness ... will, strength, fertility, and moral certainty" is to create a cult-like form of social mysticism that, in its extreme, ends up looking like Triumph of the Will. Been there, done that, got the war crimes tribunals.

But, then, the Enlightenment is under attack from all sides these days, innit?


The problem is: you are correct. (And no, I'm not a fascist.)

Fascism and Marxism were two failed attempts to bridge the is/ought divide. There are many reasons that they failed: they failed to incorporate notions of compassion or individualism, they were economic basketcases, etc. Fascism in particular was the worst aspects of religion (groupthink, suppression of diversity) combined with the worst aspects of secularism (nihilism, moral relativism).

We have to learn from those failures though. The is/ought gap must be bridged or civilization will forever oscillate between mindless religious fundamentalism and thoughtful nihilism. There must be a third alternative.

Next please!



#54171: — 12/19  at  10:26 AM
Regarding this human dominance of nature thing. How much of this is parasitism, commensalism, and synergism? Are we dominant over the cow, sheep, pig, and goat; or are they just as dominant over us? Is what we are doing anywhere on the level of bluegreen algae 3.5 billion years ago?

Even if we were to obliterate ourselves in a nuclear war, would those archaebacteria and their symbionts in the rift zones know or be affected?

The concept of usufruct is not a scientific question, but an ethical one.

Mike



#54174: — 12/19  at  10:42 AM
"Regarding this human dominance of nature thing. How much of this is parasitism, commensalism, and synergism?"

It's probably all of that. But do you really have to ask whether we're dominating the cow, sheep, pig, and goat? I think, in some commonsense, non-trivial sense of the word "dominate," the answer is clearly yes. Who's usually on the menu? Who wrote the menu?

But yes, the actual effect (particularly in the longer, rather than shorter term) of our disappearance on nature might well be vanishly small.



#54176: — 12/19  at  10:45 AM
"vanishingly," I meant to say.

And no, I didn't mean "dominate" in more than a fairly limited sense of the word.



's avatar #54177: PZ Myers — 12/19  at  10:46 AM
You could also argue that corn, soybeans, cows, chickens, and horses would not have anywhere near their numbers or worldwide distribution were it not for humans. We are the environment they have successfully exploited to achieve their current dominance.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#54178: — 12/19  at  10:54 AM
"Darwin Street Heavy?" Wuzzat? Some new generation of Minnesota garage band?



#54186: — 12/19  at  11:19 AM
Any group that bows out of the evolutionary race by not procreating (career before family) and not defending itself (pacifism) is doomed to be outbred and outfought by virile and self-righteous groups.

But remember that in many environments species (or individuals) who have fewer offspring but care for them better are more successful in the long run. The idea that the stupid or the fanatical outbreed and overwhelm the smart and the openminded has a long history, but sarcastic or xenophobic rejoinders aside, it doesn't seem to be true.

They are not called the "Darwin Awards" for nothing, you know.



's avatar #54188: — 12/19  at  11:29 AM
Oh my lack of God! This nutter reminds me of my mother in law who said in all seriousness that my wife and I must have children immediately because Muslims are breedng out of control. I should point out that my mother in law is a Sikh and demonstrably racist, although lovely in every other respect.

The "fucking for dominance" threats of the terminally religious, ah how I love them. Does anyone have the heart to point out to them that in their future world filled with milliards of like minded religious bigots (all of whom ignore science and decry it as contrary to their faith) they all will undoubtably be wiped off the face of the earth by a plague or natural event science could have prevented or warned them about. Well, if they are allowed to indulge their wet dreams, why can't I inject a little realism?



Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 >

Next entry: Easterbrook on Dawkins

Previous entry: Agnostics? Atheists? Who cares?

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college