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Sunday, May 08, 2005

Strib letters

Two weeks ago, the Strib published some editorials and asked for more reader input. They have a selection of reader mail online now. Unfortunately, they don't bother to say how much mail they received, or what proportion was Intelligent Design creationism crap. They did publish 11 letters, and 3 are on the creationist side. I think. The three are kind of a goofy muddle.

This one, for instance: whose side is Donna Ferber on?

A theory for atheists
I am one person who believes that teaching only the theory of evolution forces many students to demote their faith to tooth-fairy status. Evolution is by nature atheistic. It requires that death be considered a natural part of life, instead of a result of The Fall as described in the Book of Genesis.
Donna Ferber, Rush City, Minn.

That's very honest; yes, I personally think the existence of robust scientific theories that make deities superfluous does tend to demote religion. At the very least, it strips the business of explaining the physical world away from the churches.

Good thing, too. I find the fact that death is a natural part of life far more consoling than a very silly myth involving talking snakes and a pissy, petulant god.

The mouths of experts
Minnesota's new science standards encourage teachers and students to explore the evidence both for and against evolution. Two well-known evolutionists would approve.
As Stanley Salthe, author of "Evolutionary Biology," wrote, "Biology students at least should have the opportunity to learn about the flaws and limits of Darwin's theory while they are learning about the theory's strongest claims."
Another evolutionist penned these words in 1859: "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." The book was entitled "Origin of Species"; the author was none other than Charles Darwin.
Jean Swenson, St. Paul.

Very good, Ms Swenson! You've got the "teach the controversy" patter down cold!

Here, by the way, is the Darwin quote in context, from his introduction to the Origin. She's got it mostly right.

This abstract, which I now publish, must necessarily be imperfect. cannot here give references and authorities for my several statements; and I must trust to the reader reposing some confidence in my accuracy. No doubt errors will have crept in, though I hope I have always been cautious in trusting to good authorities alone. I can here give only the general conclusions at which I have arrived, with a few facts in illustration, but which, I hope, in most cases will suffice. No one can feel more sensible than I do of the necessity of hereafter publishing in detail all the facts, with references, on which my conclusions have been grounded; and I hope in a future work to do this. For I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived. A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question; and this is here impossible.

He's talking about presenting the full body of evidence; Darwin considered his big book to be only an abstract, only briefly sketching out the outline of his theory.

I'm all for teaching the warts and lacunae of evolutionary biology. That does not involve teaching Intelligent Design creationism, however, which is notable for its lack of evidence for anything it proposes. When people tell me to "teach the controversy", I say "OK. And you go do the work. Your side hasn't earned a hearing yet."

I've saved the best for last. This letter was the first one listed on the front page of the Op-Ex section.

Belief, and blindness
It's too bad that Paul Z. Myers (Op Ex, April 24) doesn't believe in God. If he did, maybe he'd be able to see the truth. The real controversy before us is not about the origins of species or how old the universe is. It's about whether or not there is a God.
Mike Meier, Big Lake, Minn.

Weird. So if I believed in God, I'd recognize that believing in God is controversial? Exactly the opposite has been true, in my experience; it's the believers who are blind to the silliness of the concept.

But I will agree with him that there is no real controversy about the origins of species or the age of the earth. I will be happy to allow him to debate that whole existence of god thing in theology school…just keep the noise out of our science classes.


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Comments:
#24324: coturnix — 05/08  at  08:29 AM
Only eleven? I bet they got eleven hundred. I hope that the 8:3 ratio reflects the ratio of viewpoints in the total number of letters. Is any of the writers a regular readoer of Pharyngula?



#24326: — 05/08  at  09:10 AM
I would actually find the 8:3 depressing it reflects the ratio of viewpoints. A rational ratio, and a ratio found in the rest of the western world, would be perhaps 800:3.



#24329: — 05/08  at  09:46 AM
It's too bad that Paul Z. Myers (Op Ex, April 24) doesn't believe in God. If he did, maybe he'd be able to see the truth. The real controversy before us is not about the origins of species or how old the universe is. It's about whether or not there is a God.

In other words evolution = atheism. He just wanted to point out that the author was an atheist and ended up patching a couple of sound bytes together. Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not out there in "woo woo" land. "Oh yes, I remember that catchphrase, that's a good one. Oh look,another one. that packs twice the punch."



#24330: charlie wagner — 05/08  at  10:00 AM
They didn't publish *my* letter.
Maybe it was too long.
Here it is, for your edification:



The notion of intelligent design has been hijacked by those with a religious agenda to promote. Almost all proponents of ID do in fact have a religious agenda and they must be stopped from disseminating their ideology in public schools. The trick is to separate legitimate scientific investigation of intelligent design from religious creationism. As it stands now, most scientists are afraid to even talk about the subject for fear of being misquoted or having their own words used as religious propaganda. This has had a chilling effect on legitimate science that may take decades to repair. Ideology has no place in any public school science classroom and it must be stopped wherever it occurs. But one must also recognize that there have also been zealots on the evolutionist side who want to teach mechanisms of evolution that have no empirical support. The answer is simple and clear. Religious creationism must be eliminated from school curriculums and darwinian evolution must be taught not as fact, but in it's historical context. There is enough factual science, from anatomy to zoology to fill any school's scientific curriculum with non-controversial, factual science. Any teaching of darwinian evolution or creationism or "the controversy" is nothing more than a waste of time that could be better spent on real science.



#24331: Buridan — 05/08  at  10:06 AM
The real controversy before us is not about the origins of species or how old the universe is. It's about whether or not there is a God.


I think Mr. Meier actually hit the nail on the head with this part of his statement, with one major qualification. It’s not God per se but a religious belief system that is at odds with modernity. Science has become the symbolic foe for a way of life that finds everything around it marching in the opposite direction. They’re frightened, they always have been, and they’re striking out at what they rightfully see as a threat.

It’s a coping mechanism that tries desperately to ignore its own contradictory way of life not by dismantling its source, which would be suicide, but by transferring that burden to others. This represents the core of what Dawkins describes as their delusion and willful ignorance. In other words, the narcissism of the Christian Right is hell bent on imputing its religious insecurities on the rest of the world by picking fights with those of us who don’t give a shit about their anxieties – how dare we ignore them!

It’s the classic bait and switch scheme that evangelicals and fundamentalists have unknowingly perfected over the years. Anyone familiar with the proselytizing antics of the Christian Right knows this game all too well. It’s practiced in confrontational style for good reason. Of course they don’t realize they play this game on themselves. I just wish they would stop forcing it on the rest of us and deal with their insecurities in-house.



#24332: charlie wagner — 05/08  at  10:14 AM
You claim there is no evidence for intelligent design, but that's not true. There's plenty of evidence available if you can simply get past your biases and look at the data with an open mind. Here's an example:


Nature's Rotary Electromotors
Wolfgang Junge and Nathan Nelson
Science 29 April 2005: 642-644

These molecular motors contain multiple structures and multiple processes integrated together and organized in such a way that the structures and processes not only support each other, they support the overall function of the motor.
These molecular motors cannot be explained by any combination of random, unguided, or accidental processes and have clear and inescapable purpose. And purpose requires intent. To assemble these molecular motors requires insight, and insight requires intelligence.
Their existence is prima facie evidence of intelligent input into living systems. If anyone believes that these systems can arise without intelligent input I would be interested in hearing alternative explanations.



's avatar #24333: Bill Ware — 05/08  at  10:24 AM
Yes, I have to be wary of those magic fruit tress, that's for sure.



#24334: — 05/08  at  10:36 AM
These molecular motors cannot be explained by any combination of random, unguided, or accidental processes and have clear and inescapable purpose.


First of all you are projecting - just because you can't explain something otherwise, it doesn't mean otehrs can't. Also, you are confusing "purpose" and "use" - they are used for something, and this has given an evolutionary advantage compared to others, which has lead to this "design" still being around. And by "random" and "unguided" you of course disregards the great effect of nature in guiding - if it is not working well enough, it dies.



#24335: Alon Levy — 05/08  at  10:48 AM
I would actually find the 8:3 depressing it reflects the ratio of viewpoints. A rational ratio, and a ratio found in the rest of the western world, would be perhaps 800:3.

In the United States 8:3 is more than welcome at this stage. Even 6:5 would be a good start in the journey toward 800:3.



#24337: coturnix — 05/08  at  11:05 AM
Most polls show around 5:5 or even 6:4 for Creationists in the USA. 8:3 looks good in comparison.



#24338: — 05/08  at  11:18 AM
Kristjan, Wagner is hopeless, don't waste your breath. By the way, the greatest thwarting of the nonsense "purpose therefore designer" argument I've seen is, someone asked a creationist, who'd just said that the purpose of rain was to water the plants, "So phase changes are intelligently-designed machines?"



#24339: — 05/08  at  11:52 AM
The notion of intelligent design has been hijacked by those with a religious agenda to promote. Almost all proponents of ID do in fact have a religious agenda and they must be stopped from disseminating their ideology in public schools. The trick is to separate legitimate scientific investigation of intelligent design from religious creationism.


Nonsense. The notion was always owned by people with a religious agenda; you don't have to hijack what you already own.

Name some serious scientists who have done legitimate scientific investigations of ID, investigations that have made it into respected, peer-reviewed journals. And I don't mean the controversial Meyer article.



#24340: — 05/08  at  11:54 AM
Mr. Wagner said:
These molecular motors cannot be explained by any combination of random, unguided, or accidental processes and have clear and inescapable purpose. And purpose requires intent. To assemble these molecular motors requires insight, and insight requires intelligence.


Charlie, when Behe published, I went to Southwest Medical Center, the medical school for the University of Texas, and found several people who study these "motors." To a person, they all noted that the rise of the motors can easily be explained by evolution. They'll give references, if you ask.

Have you written to Junge and Nelson to ask them? You should.



#24341: GrrlScientist — 05/08  at  12:11 PM
I'm bummed. They didn't publish my letter. This reminds me of my so-called "job" search, sigh.

GrrlScientist



's avatar #24345: Ken Cope — 05/08  at  12:26 PM
They selected for terse over loqacious; the wordiest was 104 (take that, SAT essay!).

If we can't get our point across in less than a couple of sentences, we probably shouldn't bother with paragraphs.



#24347: Steve J. — 05/08  at  01:11 PM
#10: coturnix — 05/08 at 11:05 AM
Most polls show around 5:5 or even 6:4 for Creationists in the USA. 8:3 looks good in comparison.


A March 8-10, 2005 MSNBC poll had 57:33 favoring Creationists, with 10 Don't know/Neither.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7224318/



#24351: — 05/08  at  01:45 PM
Well Charlie Wagner, your comment brings to mind an article I read not long ago:

"“We were able to get them to evolve without fail,” he says. But when he stopped to look at exactly how the organisms were adding numbers, he was more surprised. “Some of the ways were obvious, but with others I’d say, ‘What the hell is happening?’ It seemed completely insane.”"

...

"The shortest equals program Ofria could write is 19 lines long. The chances that random mutations alone could produce it are about one in a thousand trillion trillion."

And yet.. that 19 step long and entirely irreducible bit of code was able to appear in 23 out of 50 tests. Which is a nearly 1:2, not 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

http://www.discover.com/issues/feb-05/cover/

Now.. the ID people have argued that its meaningless because the system was itself 'designed' and gave rise to the results because they experimenters build into the Avida system 'artificial' conditions to give rise to the results. Please, explain to me 'what' the difference between arbitrary human made laws that give rise to life in a computer and arbitrary 'natural' laws giving rise to the same things differs. There isn't any. In both situations the environment is dictating how and if evolution happens at all. If it is artificial or not doesn't matter in the least. Worse, attempts by the reasearchers to truelly 'guide' the process, the way ID claims happened, proved impossible. The artificial organisms simply reacted to the intervention the same way they did other environmental factors, so when the scientists tried to force alternative behaviours (in this case trying to 'stop' them from evolving), the organisms simply somehow learned to recognize when they experimentors where handling them, then pretended that they where dead. I.e., primitive and simple organisms that barely qualified as microbes told God, "Kiss off, we will evolve the way we want to and you can take a hike." This doesn't help the, "Aliens or something else did it", concept either. lol You cannot create something 'capable' of evolving, in even the most simple way without almost immediately losing all control over it "period".



#24352: — 05/08  at  01:50 PM
I love the ones that cite Darwin's uncertainty, as if nobody had addressed any of those issues in the last fourteen decades .



#24354: charlie wagner — 05/08  at  02:15 PM
Ed Darrell wrote:

...and found several people who study these "motors." To a person, they all noted that the rise of the motors can easily be explained by evolution.


Let's not lose sight of the question. I have no doubt that these molecular motors "evolved". After all, there are at least 5 different types and those found in prokaryotes are simpler than those in higher forms. They use similar proteins, similar genetic sequences, similar processes and similar structures. And they have changed (evolved) over time into new applications.

The question remains: Did the evolution and assembly of these various motors from simpler components require intelligent input or is it the result of random mutations and natural selection? I argue for the former.



#24357: — 05/08  at  02:30 PM
The question remains: Did the evolution and assembly of these various motors from simpler components require intelligent input or is it the result of random mutations and natural selection? I argue for the former.


No, you claim the former - there is no real argument there. And even if we grant that there is an argument, you base it on a designer we haven't seen any (scientific) proof off. It might be that they were designed through a evolutionary process, but that's entirely irrelevant in regards to science.

So, again, you are mixing science and non-science.



#24359: — 05/08  at  02:43 PM
I am one person who believes that teaching only the theory of evolution forces many students to demote their faith to tooth-fairy status.

And I'm one person who thinks teaching ID would demote God to the stuatus of engineer. (Not that there's anything wrong with engineers, but would you really want your children to worship one?) God, in Western tradition, is described as being omniscient and omnipotent. It's hard to imagine that such a being would sit around designing "molecular motors." He's meant to be beyond our comprehension, with a wisdom so vast, even the greatest human minds could never hope to understand, much less match it. In that light, even complex organisms seem rather primitive and poorly made. Even a human engineer would have had more sense than to include things like tonsils and appendices which serve no purpose other than to get infected. Did God just get sloppy?

Evolution ... requires that death be considered a natural part of life, instead of a result of The Fall as described in the Book of Genesis.

You'd think that such a passionate defender of the Book of Genesis would have taken the time to read it, at least the first few chapters. Genesis does not describe death as a result of "the fall." With the expulsion from Eden we lost our chance to become immortal, but presumably we were mortal to begin with.



#24360: — 05/08  at  02:49 PM
My letter was in the letters section of today's (May 8) Strib. I was writing it for the 150 word limit of the evo/ID responses. If I had known it was going to be used in the regular section I would have added a few lines. Oh well.



#24374: Tyson Burghardt — 05/08  at  08:23 PM
Hot diggity-dog--they published me. I bet it was the "I may just be a lowly medical student, but...." bit. Kills 'em every time.



#24376: — 05/08  at  08:34 PM
Kudos, Tyson. It was a good letter.



#24383: — 05/09  at  02:13 AM
I suspect Donna Ferber, the "I am one person who believes that teaching only the theory of evolution forces many students to demote their faith to tooth-fairy status" lady, is on the creationist side, but Russell's Uncertainty Principle makes me not so sure. Death not being "natural" sounds a bit forced, even for a believer.

What surprises me about the promoters of ID is that they seem oblivious to the trend: the gaps left over for their Designer to hide in keep getting smaller. If I were an IDer, I'd be a mite disconcerted about the squeezing involved. Used to be room behind every raincloud, and now He (or She, or It) has to duck out of sight under some missing molecular scaffolding. Assuming preservation of mass, the pressure must be getting tremendous. No wonder the Designer is breaking out all over...



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