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Tuesday, December 20, 2005

Thank you, Michael Behe

Michael Behe has previously commented on his testimony in the Kitzmiller trial. He felt good about it; in fact, he thought it was exhilarating and fun.

I haven't the foggiest idea how the Judge will rule, but I think we got to show a lot of people that ID is a very serious idea.

Hmmmm…I wonder, what did the judge think of his testimony? Do you think there might be a way to, you know, find out?

Let's look in his decision for references to Behe! As it turns out, we owe a debt of gratitude to the good doctor of ID for the invaluable assistance of his testimony.

Here are a few choice quotes from Judge Jones' decision that specifically cite Behe's testimony.

Dr. Haught testified that this argument for the existence of God was advanced early in the 19th century by Reverend Paley and defense expert witnesses Behe and Minnich admitted that their argument for ID based on the "purposeful arrangement of parts" is the same one that Paley made for design.


Moreover, it is notable that both Professors Behe and Minnich admitted their personal view is that the designer is God and Professor Minnich testified that he understands many leading advocates of ID to believe the designer to be God.


Consider, to illustrate, that Professor Behe remarkably and unmistakably claims that the plausibility of the argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God.


As no evidence in the record indicates that any other scientific proposition's validity rests on belief in God, nor is the Court aware of any such scientific propositions, Professor Behe's assertion constitutes substantial evidence that in his view, as is commensurate with other prominent ID leaders, ID is a religious and not a scientific proposition.


Stated another way, ID posits that animals did not evolve naturally through evolutionary means but were created abruptly by a non-natural, or supernatural, designer. Defendants' own expert witnesses acknowledged this point.


First, defense expert Professor Fuller agreed that ID aspires to "change the ground rules" of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. Moreover, defense expert Professor Minnich acknowledged that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened to allow consideration of supernatural forces.


What is more, defense experts concede that ID is not a theory as that term is defined by the NAS and admit that ID is at best "fringe science" which has achieved no acceptance in the scientific community.


Moreover, cross-examination revealed that Professor Behe's redefinition of the blood-clotting system was likely designed to avoid peer- reviewed scientific evidence that falsifies his argument, as it was not a scientifically warranted redefinition.


We therefore find that Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large.


As Plaintiffs aptly submit to the Court, throughout the entire trial only one piece of evidence generated by Defendants addressed the strength of the ID inference: the argument is less plausible to those for whom God's existence is in question, and is much less plausible for those who deny God's existence.


The one article referenced by both Professors Behe and Minnich as supporting ID is an article written by Behe and Snoke entitled "Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues." (P-721). A review of the article indicates that it does not mention either irreducible complexity or ID. In fact, Professor Behe admitted that the study which forms the basis for the article did not rule out many known evolutionary mechanisms and that the research actually might support evolutionary pathways if a biologically realistic population size were used.

Behe's right. That was fun!

Here's an even more fun part. Behe thought one part of the cross-examination was such a slam dunk for him, that he singled it out for bragging:

The cross examination was fun too, and showed that the other side really does have only rhetoric and bluster. At one point the lawyer for the other side who was cross examining me ostentatiously piled a bunch of papers on the witness stand that putatively had to do with the evolution of the immune system. But it was obvious from a cursory examination that they were more examples of hand waving speculations, which I had earlier discussed in my direct testimony. So I was able to smile and say that they had nothing more to say than the other papers. I then thought to myself, that here the NCSE, ACLU, and everyone in the world who is against ID had their shot to show where we were wrong, and just trotted out more speculation. It actually made me feel real good about things.

Oh, yeah. I can picture Behe waving away a stack of research articles with a supercilious smirk, dazzling the judge with his confidence. How do you think it was interpreted?

In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough."

We find that such evidence demonstrates that the ID argument is dependent upon setting a scientifically unreasonable burden of proof for the theory of evolution.

Ouch. Backfire.

This is terribly unseemly. I'm sitting here reading the decision, chortling to myself, when I really do have work to do. But it's so darned good! I feel like I ought to just quote all 139 pages and be done with it!


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Comments:
#54940: Matt Bailey — 12/22  at  10:53 PM
I believe three things:
1) God is the connective tissue between us, each other, and the rest of the universe.
2) It is human to seek these connections.
3) I could be wrong about 1 and/or 2 above.

Behe lost nothing. His audience will only listen to what ever he spinns as truth. The danger is in letting one man or group 'pocket' the 'Truth'.

Believing in God isn't the issue, it's believing Behe and the likes of men that would use religion to control politics. Believing in God is good religion. Believeing in the Scientific Method is good science. Jones got it right.

I would task everyone on this blog to seek out a Fundamenalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim and work to 'convert' them. I have had great success. It takes about a year of discourse, but if you keep the conversation going, I guarantee commonsense will prevail.

The first step though, is to understand Religious doctrine, and be able to communicate in their vocabulary, and you are probably no more willing to learn that, then a good Fundie is willing to take BIO(101).

Remember: discourse, communication, connection. Peace.



's avatar #54947: Hank Fox — 12/23  at  02:23 AM
Dear How Goes It: I used to have a lot more patience with people like you, but eventually I realized that, for people who can say the kinds of things you say, it's most likely a serious waste of my time to attempt to explain ... well, anything.

The language you use when you speak of science, for instance, makes me think your head is on some radical elliptical from any common orbit where we could actually discuss this stuff.

And this phrase:

“... absolute utter fear of exposing ones offspring to an alternate or opposing point of view.”

Argh. Argh, I say. (Slap forehead, roll eyes, raise hands imploringly to heavens.)

One of my flaws is impatience. For me, it seems far better to spend time and effort on people who start out open-minded and reasonable, and attempt to explain stuff to THEM, than it is to start with someone who needs a shitload of work just to get them to the open-minded and reasonable point.

And for someone who seems to have a hidden axe to grind, and I can’t even guess what the axe is ...

Well, anyway, have a nice life.



#54950: — 12/23  at  03:12 AM
Hank Fox,

I always love it when those so impressed with themselves, turn to insult rather than discuss the issues.

So let's summarize your response.

First paragraph -
You no longer are patient. Your time is oh so precious. You don't know how to explain.

Second paragraph -
The catchy phrase of -- radical elliptical from any common orbit

Third paragraph or section -
Argh, Argh

Forth paragraph -
You are impatient (and redundant)
You like to spend your time on an easy touch.

Fifth paragraph -
Hidden axe of which neither you or I know of.

Last line -
Have a nice life

Do you think that maybe those that choose insult over issue, is because they have nothing worthwhile to say? Yeah.

Let's see if you can string a whole line of expletives together to show that great intelligence.

Hack away big guy. I have nothing further to add to something so useless.



#54951: — 12/23  at  03:18 AM
I think this judgement is consternating: It is apalling that people would have to go to court to get a decision preventing religious beliefs to be presented as science. Of course, it is encouraging that the court decided in favor of science. In many other countries, the plaintifs would have been stoned...



#54952: Juan Incognito — 12/23  at  03:42 AM
Great story guys. I've been following this story from afar, glad to see that the ID chumps have been knocked back again.
I don't understand how they can set a crazy high standard of proof for Evolution, yet in the next breath demand ID be given a hearing with no proof.



#54956: — 12/23  at  07:30 AM
Whoa! Hold on a moment dear How Goes It

“So the Evo's say, hey it ain't all that complicated. We are smart enough to where we can figure it out.”

I’ve been teaching evolutionary biology for 20 years and it’s a mighty challenge to keep up with this ever-changing and fascinating field of research. I constantly tell my students that in 100 years scholars will look back at our current level of knowledge and snicker as we do at the quaint ideas of the 19th century. But hey, quess what, we know a lot more now than we did then

“And I guess I am supposed to believe that they just about have the start of the universe figured too.”

Hey, do you read? Cosmological questions are at the forefront of debate. String theory, the multiverse, etc, etc. are all very controversial and the subject of endless disputation. What scientist says they just about have it all figured out? Not one. But we do have a wealth of evidence that things such as evolution have occurred.

“Yet it wasn't all that long ago that scientists that studied such things, were only trained in Uniformitarianism. Catastrophism was a no no. Why? Because it was akin to what those who believed in the Bible believed. So, you were more or less supposed to be thought of as an idiot if you believed in Catastrophism. Well, what happens? Back in 1995, I am watching NOVA and they have this little program about Venus. I think it was called Venus Unveiled. Well its all about how the Uniformitarianism guys had the chair pulled out from under them. On top of just about every single scientific program you see on public t.v. now days is about Catasrophic this or that. Some major meteor, or caldera, or tidal wave, or planet hitting earth to form the moon --- on and on and on. A whole lot of crow to eat with regards to their oh so scientific certainties about Uniformitarianism. Then again, as long as it is the scientific community saying we were wrong (which they don't like to do in public) it is okay. But if it is an outsider that points out that they were wrong - whoa!”

Don’t know where to begin. The catastrophism you refer to has nothing to do with the 19th century catastrophism of Cuvier et al. That idea was theistic and based on divine intervention. So-called modern catastrophism is naturalistic and based on scientific research and the uniformitarianist paradign. Cataclysmic extraterrestrial impacts (a la the Shoemaker-Levi Comet that hit Jupiter) are natural events that leave empirical evidence behind. Volcanic events such as the Siberian Trapps that may have resulted in the Permian Extinction event leave behind empirical evidence which we study and understand based on uniformitarian principles. What I’m trying to tell you How it Goes is that you know not what of you speak.

”Remember how the scientific community thought the doctor from Australia was nuts for saying that some ulcers were caused by bacteria. Opps. Wrong again weren't they. But, we must not talk about that.”

Well guess what. We did speak of it and there was a paradigm shift.

“You know, with all this tremendous knowledge these guys have, you would think they could make a simple anti-acid that would take care of everybody. But what do I read two days ago? My chances have increased by 50%, if I take Zantac, that I will get an uncontrollable case of the squats. Yeah, you guys have it all figured out alright.”

Sorry, but science is a self-correcting methodology and as history attests when mistakes are made they are eventually corrected. How do the religionists or other know-nothings you seem to support respond to challenges to their beliefs? They you hide their heads in the sand.

”P.S. how about the duzy of Punctuated Equilibria some of your buddies came up with awhile back. I guess if you believe in this pop-corn theory of evolution, you could believe in just about anything.”

Again, you know not what of you speak. Your ignorance of the real issues continues to amaze. I won’t go into the old Punctuated Equilibrium ploy. You can read up on that yourself.

“And they say it takes faith to believe in religion?!!!! Face it, you got your religion, and others have theirs.”

No, its not a matter of faith for us, it’s a matter of reasoned argumentation, the study of empirical fact, the testing of hypotheses, the revision of theories when warranted, etc., etc. So put that in your pipe and smoke it and it might dispel the cloud of ignorance that has enveloped your mind. How does it go How Goes It?



#54957: — 12/23  at  08:13 AM
Well, How Goes It, you seem to have a strong need to be angry for some reason. The source or target of that anger, your posts are not making clear.

Apparently we have established that you are not a technological Luddite, however your positions seems to be that since science can never know all that religion is a better guide. That implies that testable, repeatable scientific information is inferior to centuries old tribal stories passed down in the bible..... even though many of those stories have become quaint fables which are obviously full of factual inaccuracy. But, since you dont ever explicity make this argument, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this may not be your position.

Instead it looks as if you might be arguing for the potential for new knowledge, or a new way of thinking under the ID paradigm. This is a tantalizing proposition, and one that the ID leaders use effectively. The lie of this is the clearly exposed tactic of taking a creationism text and replacing the references to god with 'intelligent designer'. Read the court ruling. It is right there in plain sight for all to see. They dont really believe they are creating a new way of thinking, they are just repackaging an old way. They are saying in effect that the world is too complicated for us to comprehend, so an omnipotent power must have had a hand. This is like saying the internet cant exist because it isnt centrally created and controlled. It is a false choice of models. Myriad and multiple forces act upon the earth and its many life forms, and events, mutations and adaptations lead to changes in the enviroment and those life forms ... whether or not any one of us comprehends all the details and processes, or how it all came to be.

So, we are back to that centuries old dogma being used to attack scientific thought and processes.

More science has made our world more understandable. Less religion has made our world more predictable. Every day you rely on testable, repeatable observation to conduct your life. Believe me, you dont want to return to pre Enlightenment times when life was riven with superstition, but that is exactly where the Behe's of the world would lead you, or in the Dover case, would lead your children.



#54960: — 12/23  at  08:20 AM
In case anybody missed it you can find THE decision, in full, here:

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/opinions.htm



#55000: — 12/23  at  04:45 PM
Teaching Evolutionary Biology back in the days before Watson and Crick exploded onto the scene was mostly about fossil evidence. But in the intervening of years, every piece of scientific evidence in fields as diverse as biology, chemistry, cosmology, physics and zoology has only served to reinforce and give absolute credence to Darwin's brilliant theory. There is simply no other way to interpret all the available evidence. And Intelligent Design, as the judge's decision suggested, is not worth mentioning in the same breath. The ID court case amply demonstrated that ID as an explanation is not a theory but more in the nature of mindless blather and wishful thinking by a group of hopeless and hysterical Luddites. If Darwin hadn't come up with his idea of evolutionary theory, someone else certainly would have done so.
But with the legal dismissal of Intelligent Design as a hoax, perhaps the IDer's could turn their attention and bring their considerable, misguided energies to look at the most troubling and annoying theory of all times, the theory of God because nowhere in the history of mankind is there a more destructive theory created by the fertile imagination of man. Not a scintilla of evidence exists to support Biblical Genesis nor any other God theory of the universe's origin so it is always a mystery to me where these religious beliefs come from.
But the answer is simple, brainwashing.
And it starts with prayers. If you take any child, make them kneel alongside their bed and then project an image of a frightening ethereal figure hovering over them ready with clip board in hand to make a note of each time they touch themselves "inappropriately" or have impure thoughts, and that they will die in the fires of Hell for doing so, you have captured a mind that is evermore so fearful, that it will never question the truth of the concept. So despite all the prattle by those who have found "true" faith, belief in it, no matter it'ssupposed origins, is cultural, not spiritual nor deifically ordained.
Once you accept this and throw off the religious yoke, it is enormously enlightening. So the challenge for Ider's is to come up with an alternate explanation of the God Theory that fits all the available facts.



#55015: — 12/24  at  12:12 AM
Dear Sage ----

Well, How Goes It, you seem to have a strong need to be angry for some reason. The source or target of that anger, your posts are not making clear.

There is no anger. Sarcasm, yes. Holding anger towards any individual would likely affect me. Not a smart way to live. And, I actually find helping individuals is just a whole lot better for all.


your positions seems to be that since science can never know all that religion is a better guide.

Guide for how to live morally, yes. But not for planning the trajectory for a trip to the moon. Go to the best school you can (which according to Mike Wallace and 60 minutes, that is some school in India -- don't get mad at me, get mad at Mike), and work with the smartest people you can find for something like that.

Look, I am not adverse to good science. I am adverse to people getting ahead of themselves and making conclusions that may prove wrong latter on. Does that me that we do nothing in fear of making a mistake. No. Just don't take the self righteous view of -- I am truth, and you know nothing.


Instead it looks as if you might be arguing for the potential for new knowledge, or a new way of thinking under the ID paradigm

Look, I have seen Behe on T.V. a few times. Never read his book or any other I.D. book. Exactly what I believe as to seven 24 hour days, or, was a day longer than 24 hours as we know it during creation, I haven't come to any conclusion. I do not believe it is essential for my making it into heaven.


The lie of this is the clearly exposed tactic of taking a creationism text and replacing the references to god with 'intelligent designer'.

I am not trying to hide anything. I believe things were created. Can I give you the fine details step by step. No.


They are saying in effect that the world is too complicated for us to comprehend, so an omnipotent power must have had a hand

Last I heard, Hawking was of the belief that small has a limit. My question is, what other things, or how many levels are there to be found past String Theory? How far does it go? Do things get infinitely small or not? I would think the verdict is still out on this one. Let's suppose that things do go on forever. Smaller and smaller and smaller with no stop. And what about all the interactions at different levels. How does a quark or neutrino or black matter, or who knows what --- well, how do all these things interact? And what about the butterfly effect or something similar to that. Meaning, something far removed effecting something that seems so unrelated? And if things go on forever, how can our finite minds know all there is to know? Now let me interject. Does this mean that we can't function as humans because we can't see the entire picture. Of course not. We do it now with our limited knowledge. Just how complex is all this stuff? Is it possible that things are irreducibly complex? Or, is anyone prepared to say ---- I know enough and I can make the definitive statement on this one. And if you do, is Dr. McCoy going to come back and haunt you for your bold statement?


More science has made our world more understandable

Of course. On many things it has.


Less religion has made our world more predictable

My religion has taught me to help others for one thing. And like Martha says -- that's a good thing.


Believe me, you dont want to return to pre Enlightenment times when life was riven with superstition, but that is exactly where the Behe's of the world would lead you, or in the Dover case, would lead your children.

So do you figure that Behe's kids are wearing prehistoric clothing and walking around and grunting?!
I know loads of Christians that live some of the most refined lives you can imagine.
Tons of money and modern day adornments. Many Christians I know are millionaires if not multi- millionaires, and take advantage of what science has wrought. I ain't doing all that bad myself as a business owner.
Most of these are self made people (with the help of their God). And, they also do a lot of work for their communities or help financially.
So what you talk of on this one, I have not the slightest idea.
Let me add, that it might surprise you, but you probably wouldn't have a clue who these people were if you ran across them in town. As normal as anyone and most I know are plenty friendly.
I am totally surprised as to what you think of Christians. No wonder all the fear.

I will say that I appreciate your civil discussion.
If I came across as sarcastic, please forgive me.



#55043: — 12/24  at  10:18 AM
#55015 states: "And if things go on forever, how can our finite minds know all there is to know? Now let me interject. Does this mean that we can't function as humans because we can't see the entire picture?

Now #55015, you quickly, and correctly answer your own question:

Of course not.

But the problem #55015 is that you let a neuroticism into this argument (through the back door as they say). Anxiety, i.e. *FEAR* of the infinite regress. Panic - things may break down in some way? WE CAN'T FUNCTION - OH THE HUMANITY ...

I do not think neuroticisms/anxiety/panic (I use these terms in a descriptive -non Freduain - sense) have any role in this debate.

At best one might say such fears (i.e., of infinite regress - God forfend) entered at about 12 billion years after the bang and only in highly evolved systems - like #55015's basal forebrain.



#55050: — 12/24  at  10:52 AM
Not to belabor the point, but a couple of things jump out at me.

My religion has taught me to help others for one thing. And like Martha says -- that's a good thing.


I spend Christmas and Thanksgiving working in the back of a kitchen so that elderly people without families can gather and celebrate together. I am an atheist. Religion is not required to learn to help others.


So do you figure that Behe's kids are wearing prehistoric clothing and walking around and grunting?!
I know loads of Christians that live some of the most refined lives you can imagine.
Tons of money and modern day adornments. Many Christians I know are millionaires if not multi- millionaires, and take advantage of what science has wrought. I ain't doing all that bad myself as a business owner.
Most of these are self made people (with the help of their God). And, they also do a lot of work for their communities or help financially.
So what you talk of on this one, I have not the slightest idea.


This is not my definition of 'the good life' or success or not slipping backwards. I think that if Behe succeeds then the children of Dover, for instance, will be trying to tackle the world using incorrect thinking. And by the way, "with the help of their God", could have more accurately been:
"with the help of their friends",
"with the help of their communities",
"with the help of their families", .....

Again, I live in a nice house, have sufficient money and suffer none of the deprivations of my youth, or the Dark Ages. I am an atheist.

You are right, we dont do it alone, we do it with each other.



#55079: — 12/24  at  03:48 PM
Dear Sage ---

I spend Christmas and Thanksgiving working in the back of a kitchen so that elderly people without families can gather and celebrate together.

Fantastic. I hope your health stays well, and that you will be able to do this honorable thing for many years to come. Great to hear true stories of people helping others.


Religion is not required to learn to help others.

Oh course.


This is not my definition of 'the good life' or success or not slipping backwards.

I was not responding to a question of 'the good life' or success or not slipping backwards.
Merely that Christians aren't living in conditions anywhere close to pre Enlightenment. Nor do they want to. At least no one I know or have ever heard of. I appreciate ALL the conveniences that modern life has to offer, and take advantage of them. Even got an indoor toilet. Hope you have a sense of humor.


think that if Behe succeeds then the children of Dover, for instance, will be trying to tackle the world using incorrect thinking

A point of view that reasonable persons surely could disagree on. And of course you would never want to bring in the ' thought police' regarding what is to be thought of as 'incorrect thinking' on this subject. Or would you?


"with the help of their God", could have more accurately been:
"with the help of their friends",
"with the help of their communities",
"with the help of their families", .....

First off, no reasonable person I know, would not acknowledge the help of friends, communities or family or outside families. But regarding the 'more accurately been' portion -- this is certainly up for debate.


Again, I live in a nice house, have sufficient money and suffer none of the deprivations of my youth, or the Dark Ages.

I wish you none but the best of life.


You are right, we dont do it alone, we do it with each other.

Couldn't agree with you more.


Look, I believe that most intellectually honest people would say that I made at least a little bit of sense regarding irreducible complexity. With that in mind, is your evolution theory so weak, that just the mere implication of an alternate point of view, would completely obliterate all you want others to believe?! If so, maybe you should rethink your belief system.



#55726: — 12/30  at  11:34 AM
So,IDC weren't doing God's work -- the other side was! Some might say 'Hallelujah'! I prefer, HalleBerry!!



#57522: — 01/11  at  03:28 PM
Where in the whole thing did they give some evidences of creationism not being a valid alternitive to evolution? Just corious because it looked like to me that the judge was just said "It's wrong." and that was that. Where was the evidence?? It just seemed like evolution was taken for granted when the whole idea was to argue against it...



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