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Thursday, January 05, 2006

That curious religious asymmetry

mine tragedy

The awful, tragic mining accident and the erroneous media response brings something into high relief. Greg Saunders noticed:

I can't let the Boston Herald's awful (and in retrospect, horribly inappropriate) headline go without comment. Now that we know the twelve miners were killed, does this mean America's prayers weren't answered? Just like gambling addicts remember their big wins but not their losses, the fate of the twelve miners has transformed from a faith-inspiring act of God to another horrible tragedy in which it's impolite to mention religion at all. Cute little sayings like "the Lord works in mysterious ways" are cop-outs for the logical conclusions that many of us draw from experiences like this. If something fantastic and improbable can be used as proof that there's a benevolent god, doesn't the reverse point toward the conclusion that a higher power is indifferent at best? If you believe in a god that could have saved these men's lives (which I don't, btw), why didn't he? People are quick to throw around the word "miracle" when something wonderful happens, so what the hell do we call this?

I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen. One of the engines that drives religious belief is the theological ratchet that absolves gods of blame and grants them only responsibility for the good things, or if god is given credit for an affliction, at least the blame is placed on the victim. It's a clever racket, preying on people's desire to believe in a higher benevolence, and promoted even by secularists, who are reluctant to point to tragedies as signs of a lack of cosmic kindness. It's a kind of godly file-drawer effect.

Some of us refuse to grant them that ability to hide their hypocrisy away, though, as noted on Butterflies and Wheels:

"Society bends over backward to be accommodating to religious sensibilities but not to other kinds of sensibilities," says Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and outspoken atheist. "If I say something offensive to religious people, I'll be universally censured, including by many atheists. But if I say something insulting about Democrats or Republicans or the Green Party, one is allowed to get away with that. Hiding behind the smoke screen of untouchability is something religions have been allowed to get away with for too long."

I think they're going to get away with it again, too.


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Comments:
#56379: — 01/05  at  09:59 AM
These were the first thoughts in my mind too. Certainly makes believing in a benevolent god, active in the world, hard for me. The so-called African "otiose god," or god who made stuff then wandered off, leaving the field to assorted ancestors, spirits etc. etc. to handle things -- thereby creating the overall mix of good and bad we call the real world -- makes more sense than this. Or no god at all, of course -- and that's my preference.



#56382: — 01/05  at  10:11 AM
I tend to prefer he Aztec concept of the trickster god as the supreme power, myself.

Actually, polytheism almost always makes more sense then monotheism.

Hell, simply declaring that Christ was not omnipotent would pretty much solve every philosophical problem in Christianity. But of course, that's a major heresy.

Anyway, the traditional apologetic answer to this is that god doesn't owe us anything. To which I say, fine, but then I don't have to call him loving, because you're telling me he isn't. But that's a major heresy, also.

I wonder if another reasson (Besides Christianity's ubiquity) that American atheists attack christianity more often then other religions is that it just plain makes less sense then other faiths.



#56383: Kristine Harley — 01/05  at  10:12 AM
Actually, one of the wives interviewed did say something to the effect of, "Some of us have started to ask if there is a Lord at all." The unbelieveable ugliness of this turn of events makes me not want to watch the news anymore. "Miracle," "blessing," and blah, blah, and then this. Why did the mine explode in the first place? Who's asking about the conditions in which present-day miners work? Probably no better than a hundred years ago. Who's going to report on THAT, instead of how God can help you lose weight, find a job, meet your soul mate, and all the other minutiae of tasks for which people invoke Jesus's name nowadays? (And if I see one more noncritical piece about the "End of the World"...)



#56384: — 01/05  at  10:13 AM
I was quite surprised to see one news article (can't remember which) quoting at least one local resident as saying that some people had been "cursing God," and that some of them "aren't even sure if there's a Lord anymore." That's pretty amazing for American news coverage.



#56385: MAJeff — 01/05  at  10:16 AM
There are some folks willing to give God the "credit" for this event. The Phelpses of Topeka are at it again.



#56386: — 01/05  at  10:17 AM
Sister Noel Taught us in 3rd grade that there are 3 possible answers to a prayer for intervention from god:

1) Yes
2) No
3) Wait until later

So tragedy fits well into the christian's (at least the catholic's) godview.

And why would he/she put him/herself up to scrutiny by a bunch of nonbelieving, ivory-towered, tenured, know-it-all smartasses anyway?



#56387: — 01/05  at  10:18 AM
From the front page of the Herald Tribune:

"People who had been praising God a minute beore were cursing him," (John) Casto told CNN.

There has been similar coverage wrt Katrina, but you have to look very hard to find it. People are quite content, as you note, to give 'God' credit for everything good that happens, and no blame for anything bad.

President-Worship is similar in this respect. It's not a point that will ever yield to rational argument.



's avatar #56389: PZ Myers — 01/05  at  10:23 AM
So Sister Noel taught that God was a Magic 8-Ball?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#56391: — 01/05  at  10:35 AM
I think they're going to get away with it again, too.
Not in the blogosphere. I'm another one who pointed out the rampant hypocrisy yesterday.



#56393: Martin Wagner — 01/05  at  10:36 AM
People are quick to throw around the word "miracle" when something wonderful happens, so what the hell do we call this?


"God's Will."



#56394: — 01/05  at  10:43 AM
Hey, militant atheist! What hope do you offer?

You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.

The philosophy of Eeyore.

Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing.



#56396: Skeptico — 01/05  at  10:46 AM
To quote the late Bill Hicks - God's messin' with them.



#56397: — 01/05  at  10:46 AM
I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen. One of the engines that drives religious belief is the theological ratchet that absolves gods of blame and grants them only responsibility for the good things, or if god is given credit for an affliction, at least the blame is placed on the victim.

Ah, but you're forgetting the other fallback option: if it happens and you like it, God did it; if it happens and you don't like it, Satan did it!

Weird how so many people are so much more comfortable blaming an anthropomorphized personification of bottomless evil for all misfortune than they are assuming that bad shit happens to everyone and no one 'did' it.



#56399: Buridan — 01/05  at  10:52 AM
It's as silly as football players praying on opposite sides of the field for their team to win. The difference is that at least one team gets their "prayers answered" in the positive - praise GOD! Our prayers were answered because we won the game! A perfect example of "religious logic."



#56400: Andrew — 01/05  at  10:53 AM
A lot of the time you hear about how it's "God's mysterious will" and too complex for us humans to understand, and how the bereaved should be happy for the time they had with those who were lost. I personally don't get how that works (although if you believe in an entity powerful enough to create a universe you'd think that that entity could have knowledge we as human's couldn't possibly begin to fathom) but maybe it gives some people solace. Feels a bit like a cop-out and contradiction when those same people are talking about a loving and caring god though.



#56401: Buridan — 01/05  at  10:56 AM
You offer nothing.

Neither did god, if you believe such a thing.



#56403: — 01/05  at  10:59 AM
You know, all you guys do is doom and gloom. Doom and Gloom. No hope. World is harsh. Life's a bitch and then you die.

(I don't think anyone here is bashing the people who actually lost loved ones.)

But: what if those ideas you list there are all true? Wouldn't there be more value in understanding those facts and learning not to be bothered by them than there is in being deluded since it's supposedly more cheery? If what you're hinting at here is that atheists or agnostics are less prepared to handle personal tragedies than are theists, I see no evidence for that at all.

Calling facing these things 'doom and gloom' is a common malaise that Americans have, of trying to pretend that death and tragedy don't happen, and then calling people 'morbid' when they do face them.



's avatar #56404: — 01/05  at  11:00 AM
"Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing."

There's another of whose hypocritical stratagems right there. Why should it be morally better to offer insubstantiated or falsified hopes than proven facts of life?



#56405: — 01/05  at  11:07 AM
Of course, The Onion touched on just this some time ago:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812

Sorry if someone else already posted this link; I haven't read through the comments too carefully yet...



#56407: — 01/05  at  11:07 AM
The nice thing about having a god who's ways are inscrutable is that anything goes. There's always an explanation handy, be it for tragedy or good fortune. Heads I win, tails you lose, by definition.

Let the people that have lost their loved one’s be. You offer nothing.


If you don't know these people, what can you offer, NatureSelectedMe, other than imaginary pie in the sky when you die? As a militant atheist, when friends or family suffer loss, I offer my sympathy and condolences, and help if needed.



's avatar #56408: — 01/05  at  11:08 AM
Oh, and by proven facts I mean that we are born and we die. Everything in between is subjected to immediate changes without notice.

Seriously, I don't see why an atheist would hold that life's a bitch. I think he would say "you are a free agent", "you are responsible for your own moral" and "enjoy it while you have it", which is a much more a creative and positive attitude than for example the christian outlook.



's avatar #56409: — 01/05  at  11:09 AM
Several things:

Firstly, on my enormous commute to work the other day BBC Radio 4 was reporting heavily on the news that these guys had all (but one) survived. This was accomplished by the usual cries of "miracle" and various prasings of the lord etc. I arrived at the car park at 7:55am, I walked to my desk and arrived at about 8:00am by which time all (but one) of the miners were reported to be dead. My first thoughts were that this was a horrible tragedy and my sympathies were with those poor families.

My second thoughts were not so pleasant! My second thoughts were along the lines of "if god was responsible for saving them, why is god not now responsible for not saving them? Where is this piece of hysterical coverage?". I have to say I did feel a little perturbed that my inner cynic had rushed to the surface so fast but....

Secondly, despite my slight (and inappropriate) guilt at the speed of my inner cynic, I am exceedingly pleased that I was not alone and that Pharyngula (once again) was a place where similar thoughts could be voiced and discussed.

Thirdly, NatureSelectedMe, damn, but I hope you are not serious. If you are not serious, good parody, you got me!

If you ARE serious then this is for you (rant warning!):

What does a fictional, emotionally based, invisible buddy offer? Absolutely nothing. At least atheism (lack of belief in god or gods) is based in reality, which if you have half the sense I think you do, you will realise is FAR more life affirming, positive and joyful than the false and desperate hope that the grass is greener in some fictional apres vis. Yes the universe is pitilessly indifferent to the struggles and whims of Homo sapiens but so fucking what? We are alive, we get to experience the phenomenon that is living as a conscious, sentient being (at least most of us do!).

We have the opportunity to explore, understand, and probe the universe around us. We can experience the myriad feelings and emotions that have evolved to guide us through interactions with the universe around us. Not only can we feel a rush of emotion when we see an object we consider beautiful, but we can also reason out the very mechanisms that produced us in the first place? Doom and Gloom? Hardly!

Billions of possible people would go back in time (if any of this were possible) and make sure the sperm that made them would trade places with the one that made you just for the very opportunity to experience what you now experience.

Far from being joyful and happy, religions cheapen this experience, this life. They promise it gets better somewhere else. It isn't the atheist whining about life being a bitch, it's the theist who is ever hoping for that greener pasture. "Oh woe is me this life is so hard! Perhaps my invisible superbuddy will make me a better one.". Fuck that, and fuck anyone that thinks it. (Controversial? You betcha!) Celebrate the life you HAVE, not some arrant fiction you can never acheive outside of a fantasy.

I'll close with Mencken:
God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set the above their betters.



#56410: Seth Gordon — 01/05  at  11:09 AM
Note that Fred "slacktivist" Clark, a Baptist, also objects to the use of the word "miracle" in the news.

"We're Christian people ourselves," one grief-stricken family member said. "We have got -- some of us is right down to saying that we don't even know if there is a Lord anymore. We had a miracle, and it was taken away from us."

That will sound to some like a woman who has lost her faith in God. To me it sounds like the presence of such faith -- like someone struggling to figure out what her faith in God means after life has dealt her a cruel blow.

I don't have any easy answers for this poor woman. There are no easy answers for her.

And if I cannot provide such answers as a theologian, then I certainly shouldn't be trying to provide such answers as a copy editor.



#56411: — 01/05  at  11:11 AM
I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers". It will never happen.

There is one news source with the courage to report such a story. http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812



#56412: — 01/05  at  11:16 AM
NatureSelectedMe

In addition the sympathy and condolences (as pointed out by zilch), atheists (among others) can offer a plan to, say, improve miners' workplace safety conditions here on Earth instead of blathering about what's awaiting them in 'the next life.'

Penn Jillette expressed (some of) the advantages of atheism quite well in his 'This I Believe' segment:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

As an aside, can someone penetrate my thick skull with a method for posting links with the url hidden here on pharyngula? the 'a href' tag with greater than/less than signs doesn't seem to work, but there is clearly a more up-to-date way to do it that I'm unaware of...



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