#56451: — 01/05  at  01:09 PM
Also, when your god is invariably good byut something shitty happens to you, you can start to think that either you already sinned somehow to deserve punishment, or that feeling sad or angry with god is a sin. Makes it hard to properly vent.

Atheism doesn't really have that drawback.

#56453: — 01/05  at  01:15 PM
"Roky Erickson once said that because he came from Texas he was more knowledgeable about the Devil than other people were."

It's a cold night for alligators.

#56455: — 01/05  at  01:24 PM
Note to self: urgent read Dawkins.

Yes, inoculation would be a preventive measure a biologist would think of. The analogy makes me wonder; are people on stuff like methadon or antidepressants (they may help against addictions, don't they?) more likely to kick religion too? Has anyone done any science on religious behaviour?

#56458: — 01/05  at  01:35 PM
George Cauldron
What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope. I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists). I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with. Look at communism. I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”. With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?

Torbjrn Larsson
Hope sometimes is unsubstantiated and falsified. Just look at the Kerry candidacy. ;)

I think the very reason God is inscrutable is so anything goes. “Heads I win, tails you lose” Is it always a win-lose situation with you guys?

I think he would say "you are a free agent", "you are responsible for your own moral" and "enjoy it while you have it",
You sound almost Republican. ;)

Louis
Far from being joyful and happy, religions cheapen this experience, this life
No, I think it gives it meaning. How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.

You can never go wrong with Mencken.

Dark Matter
The idea that human ingenuity,reason and imagination
provide a better reason to live…

Wow. Another conservative convert. I feel like Karl Rove.

Has anyone read the The War Prayer by Mark Twain?

#56459: Beaming Visionary — 01/05  at  01:36 PM
Indeed, the fact that the miners' lives were initially reported to have been saved at a 92% rate was tragic for the families, but it produced an interesting and rarely seen side effect -- all sorts of people braying gratefully and self-indulgently about their prayers having been answers were suddenly found with their asses, or maybe just their clasped hands, exposed.

Normally the bodies pile up in an orderly arithmetic sequence, but here we briefly saw a (factitious) backward progression, which presented the goddists with a novel batch of substrate. Still, they refuse to get angry at God. Makes you wonder, but so does almost everything else they say and think.

I did see a woman interviewed on TV exclaiming that after all of the praying she and the townsfolk had done had gone to waste, she had to wonder if there even *was* a Lord. I doubt this seed will take root, though.

Dawkins would approve of me in at least one respect -- I long ago stopped granting the layered ironies, double standards and arrogant futility of blind-faith Jesusy nonsense a free pass.

http://beamingvisionary.blogspot.com/2006/01/gods-unique-sense-of-humor-again-on.html

#56468: — 01/05  at  02:10 PM

What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope. I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists).

Well, I'm sure your anecdotal observations of the internal landscapes of people different from yourself must be accurate...

Well, let's define our terms here: 'hope'. Hope of what? Always being happy? Not having anything bad happen to you again? Hope of being immortal? All three seem wildly unrealistic to me. So what 'hope' are you better at attaining than me?

I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system

I don't see myself as trying to 'tear down' anything -- what I'm trying to point out, which you don't seem to have gotten, is that your cliche of atheists being 'full of doom and gloom' is nonsense, and results from an a priori idea in your head that only religious people can be happy, since Christians say so. The thing that supposedly gives Christians hope is absent from atheists, therefore atheists lack hope. Rather circular reasoning.

but I don’t see what you have to replace it with. Look at communism.

Why? What does communism have to do with anything? Do you want to imply that nontheistic people are all communists?

I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”. With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?

Wow, you really didn't understand anything anyone here said, did you? What we are trying to say (or me, at least) is that your comments showed you have no comprehension of now a nontheist can deal with tragedy and mortality, and that this leads you to think they can't. It's just like fundies who think that since atheists don't live under a threat of a bearded dude in the clouds punishing them, they can't live morally or be fulfilled. You're imposing your own mental constructs onto other people and assuming they fit everyone.

I really do not wish to get into a discussion of how nontheistic people deal with tragedy and mortality, since others here have discussed it as well, plus I'm sure we all do it a little differently. But just to let you know, in the past 5 years, I've had both my parents, who I was very close to, pass away from extended illnesses and a brother pass away from AIDS. I wasn't a theist of any kind before, during, or after any of that. And as it happened, I didn't collapse because I felt that God Let Me Down, or because I felt Life Was Too Gloomy And Had No Meaning. If you're an intelligent person, you work out internally for yourself what it means based on personal experience, and, hopefully, come out of it a better, tougher, wiser person, which I feel I did. I see no reason to believe that any conventionally religious people would have necessarily done any better. You learn that tragedy and death are totally normal parts of life, as normal as birth and happiness, and that they only destroy you if you don't accept them and don't understand them. No big deal. It happens to everyone. Someone who goes face to face with their mortality is wiser, I think, than someone who can only handle it if they have some hypothetical life preserver to hang on to.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are other paradigms to deal with life than the one you're used to. Don't assume they don't work.

#56469: — 01/05  at  02:10 PM

How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”

Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.

I think a better "why" question is, "Why would God give us free will, with knowledge aforethought that all it would bring is the Fall, and with the knowledge that only He can redeem us?"

Bonus question: "How could that possibly add meaning to anyone's life?"

#56470: BronzeDog — 01/05  at  02:16 PM
NSM to George Cauldron:

What I meant when I said “you offer nothing” was hope. It seems to me that people who believe in God have hope.

Doesn't look that way to me: Hope seems to exist independently of a belief in deities. I've met people whose theism (specifically including a belief in Hell) caused hopelessness. I'm an atheist, and I've got a lot of hope for humanity (arguably against my better judgement).

I don’t see that with militant atheists (I like acerbic atheists). I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with.

Who says it needs to be replaced with anything? Well, there is science and the secular ideals of hope, love, justice, and so forth. All of those can exist without religion.

Look at communism.

I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

I’m not saying that death and tragedy don’t happen, but with religion you can help yourself heal by saying “It’s all for the best”.

I'm reminded of Candide... but I digress. As for healing, well, you can still say more or less the same thing about atheism: You can learn from the loss and deal with it. No religious component necessary.

With you guys saying “There is no God, religion is a sham. It’s a canker on the world.” How is that a substitute?

#1: Most atheists I know don't say "There is no God." They say "There probably isn't a God." Big difference.

#2: I don't see a need for a substitute.

#56472: — 01/05  at  02:21 PM
As an agnostic, I often find militant atheists to be as annoying as the True Believers of whatever religion. I read the slams about how those of us who suspect there might be deities are infantile idiots with the same raised eyebrow as I do the people who claim their prayers to Jesus saved them and that I am damned to hell because I don't chant the correct religious/magical incantations.

One of the issues in this instance, however, is the loose use of the word 'miracle'. From an old Webster's: miracle; an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs.

If they had survived, there would have been nothing more miraculous about it than the fact that they died. In past mining disasters, some miners survived and some died. To the families involved, that is a pretty cold blooded thing to say, but it's the case in most disasters, some people survive horrendous events and some do not. And from there you can argue that there is no God(s) or that God(s) is capricious or that God(s) was trying to send a message, or whatever suits your world view.

A miracle would be more along the lines of one of the trapped miners appearing at the surface, without the help of the rescue workers.

But, like 'hero' the word 'miracle' has been used, re-used and misused so it doesn't have much meaning. Newspapers are fond of using meaningless, but emotional sounding, terms, so I wouldn't expect anything different in this case. Again, it is pretty cold blooded to talk about the situation when most of us have no involvement with it other than newscasts, but I am reminded of the Floyd Collins episode, which wasn't about mining, but about caveing, in the 20s, and had all the same furor expressed about it.

But then I am damned by both atheists and believers, so don't listen to the damned person. ;)

#56473: BronzeDog — 01/05  at  02:22 PM

How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.

Meaningless question. Besides, I think that if it did have an answer, it'd kind of cheapen the whole thing.

#56479: — 01/05  at  02:50 PM
Communism is an example of a Godless society. Sorry it wasn’t clear. I was looking at it as an unsuccessful atheist based society. Maybe that could be one of the reasons it failed.

#56480: — 01/05  at  02:55 PM
Communism is merely an example of a particularly noxious kind of religion. The fact that the invisible friend in this case is a reification of History doesn't make its logical structure any different from other persecuting religions.

#56481: PZ Myers — 01/05  at  03:00 PM
The Soviet Union and China are better examples of totalitarian regimes than they are of godless societies. You might want to consider Sweden, instead -- a nation with a state religion and a population that mostly just doesn't give a damn. That's closer to the atheist ideal, rather than this odd idea that atheism should be imposed on a nation by some kind of dictatorial rule.

#56485: BronzeDog — 01/05  at  03:10 PM
Sorry, NSM: Your example's useless. I'm against Communism, especially the Soviet sort. From my point of view, it looked almost exactly like Spain during the Dark ages, the colonial America witch trials, and McCarthyist America. The whole "god" thing was just one irrelevant boolean variable in the whole mess. I just don't see what Communism's godlessness had to do with its failure.

#56487: PZ Myers — 01/05  at  03:13 PM
redbraidy: I don't damn agnostics. I think any hesitancy on the existence of gods is a waste of time, but it's a perfectly reasonable intellectual position. I also don't object to deism, because although there is no evidence for that deity, there isn't any evidence against it either (by intent; their deity is neatly tucked away where its existence is untestable). I even like many outright theists who prioritize properly, arguing that the world is important evidence of their god's actions.

But man, this constant conflation of atheists with dogmatic fundamentalists by certain agnostics tends to piss me off. I won't mock you for your reasonable uncertainty if you learn to recognize that a) atheists aren't evangelical, b) atheists aren't reliant on dogma, and c) atheists have no fundamental book which they insist must be literally interpreted. Fair enough?

#56488: — 01/05  at  03:13 PM

The Soviet Union and China are better examples of totalitarian regimes than they are of godless societies. You might want to consider Sweden, instead -- a nation with a state religion and a population that mostly just doesn't give a damn. That's closer to the atheist ideal, rather than this odd idea that atheism should be imposed on a nation by some kind of dictatorial rule.

Agreed. Besides, lots of people stayed religious in the Soviet Union, regardless of what the state wanted. Wouldn't that invalidate the notion that it was a 'godless society'? If not, why not?

#56493: emaw_kc — 01/05  at  03:36 PM

I'd like to see that newspaper issue a retraction: "God curses good people; ignores prayers".

Here's my suggestion:

"12 of 13 Miners Naturally Deselected"

#56494: — 01/05  at  03:37 PM
I just don't see what Communism's godlessness had to do with its failure.
It was cursed, you see. ;)

I was thinking along the lines similar to PZ where it is bad having atheism imposed on a Nation. This might cause a backlash. I’ve read that it caused the US to add "Under God" to the pledge of allegiance.

#56501: Geoffrey Brent — 01/05  at  04:01 PM
Never been entirely sure whether to call myself an atheist, but close enough for these purposes...

How do atheists answer, “why are we here?”.

How does a miner's child answer, "what are the words that will bring my father back to life?"

How do mathematicians answer, "what is the number that is one bigger than itself?"*

How do theists answer, "how tall is God's father?"

The fact that you can assemble words into a semantically correct question is no guarantee that that question has an answer, or is even meaningful. You're assuming that there *is* a 'why'; I see no need to adopt that assumption.**

IME, learning that the existence of a question does not imply the existence of an answer makes life a great deal easier to live.

*No, infinity is not a number. It's several different things to mathematicians, but none of them are true numbers.
**Assuming we're talking at a 'purpose' sort of level; this blog has several hundred posts addressing the physical 'why'.

#56502: — 01/05  at  04:01 PM
NSM:
'Under God' was added during the Red scare to seperate ourselves from the 'godless' communists (does that remind anyone of the fundimentalist Islamic phrase godless infidels?). Thats the main reason there has been some discussion of taking it out (because unlike 'In God We Trust', et al, it has no historical basis - plus the pledge is kind of stupid really IMO).

As for why communist contries persecute religion, its because the leaders want to be the only game in town. Instead of building themselves up like gods or god's messangers (King of England, pharohs, et al.), they would establish themselves as secular rulers. It isn't necessarily because they thought religions was bad, it just threatened their monopoly.

Why all the hatred for communism in America, I'll never understand. At its base, communism is a utopian society where people's needs are met and no one is subjagated. Old Christians in America used to establish communes as a small scall communism to provide for everyone in the community. Marx just came at it from a different angle (the plight of the worker as opposed to trying to live as Jesus). However, in reality, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly; so nothing like communism actually ever happened in either case.

#56503: coturnix — 01/05  at  04:05 PM
Some before-and-after newspaper covers of the story:
http://www.brainshrub.com/miners-news-context

#56504: Beaming Visionary — 01/05  at  04:06 PM
"I know you guys are trying to tear down a belief system but I don’t see what you have to replace it with."

Reality.

#56511: — 01/05  at  04:21 PM
NatureSelectedMe,

Oh shit you WERE serious! Forgive me, I seem to have deeply overestimated your intellectual gifts.

I suppose I need to lead you through it step by step. The reason the hope for an after life, or the claim that there is a better alternative to the life you and I are currently leading, cheapens this life is because it shifts the focus from improving this life to improving one's chances of achieveing this fictional after life. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but there are plenty of examples of where they are, details depend on which religion one looks at of course.

Meaning is entirely a personal issue. If your religion gives your life meaning then good for you! I wouldn't take that away from you. That does not mean that your religion has to give my life meaning, nor that because I do not share your religion, my life is meaningless. Consider the simple fact that there are people with different religions to your own who also claim meaning in their lives. That simple fact shows you precisely the value of religion. It's a sop, a crutch, a security blanky. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, but it hardly makes it a universal panacea.

As for "Why are we here?". Simple. I have two answers to the question. If you mean "why am I here?" the answer is "my parents fucked and here I am!", it really is no more complex than that. If you mean "what is the purpose for human life, why are we here?" I ask you this simple question: Why does there have to be some grand overarching purpose? No one ever wants to answer that.

Personally, I give my life meaning, some ephemeral cosmic purpose that I dream up doesn't do it for me. My life's meaning and purpose is defined by my actions, not by appeal to some invisible, fictional entity. But there isn't any great cosmic significance to my existence. I'm not arrogant enough to think the universe exists for me, nor that the basic reason for the existence of the universe is to provide humans with something to stand on while we do our stuff.

I suggest you learn a bit more about what atheism is rather than falsely equating the lack of belief in a deity with the worst excesses of despair and totalitarian regimes.

Louis

P.S. You can never go wrong with Mencken? Oh yes you can. I don't agree with everything the man said, did or stood for. But I agree with the quote I posted.

#56512: BronzeDog — 01/05  at  04:43 PM

I was thinking along the lines similar to PZ where it is bad having atheism imposed on a Nation. This might cause a backlash.

It's not the idea being imposed that was the problem. It was the imposition.

The only thing I want compelling people to atheism (or religion) is evidence. If the government started imposing atheism, I'd be among the first to picket. Of course, I'm currently picketing the attempts to impose (more) Christianity on the government for exactly the same reason.

#56513: — 01/05  at  04:57 PM
Meaning is entirely a personal issue. If your religion gives your life meaning then good for you! I wouldn't take that away from you.

I don't think that's entirely true from your perspective. The militant atheists are trying to take it away by belittling it.

Why does there have to be some grand overarching purpose? No one ever wants to answer that.

It's the quest for the answer that's important. To some people that is. It’s like science in a way. Why do we have to know how a squid evolved? Because.

I'm not arrogant enough to think the universe exists for me, nor that the basic reason for the existence of the universe is to provide humans with something to stand on while we do our stuff.

The flip side of that is saying that we’re meaningless. There has to be some middle ground.

What is there it read up on to understand atheists? I get all I need from here.