Pharyngula

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Friday, July 08, 2005

The conservative counterattack...ho hum.

Brian Leiter tells me that Todd Zywicki at the Volokh Conspiracy has made a kind of counterattack in response to the The New Republic's embarrassing interview of conservative pundits on evolution and intelligent design. He also misses the mark badly.

Will he also do a survey next week of liberal intellectuals on evolutionary psychology and whether they believe that are biological differences between the sexes? And whether those insights should be taught in school too?

Whoa, hold it. Notice the strange shift: the TNR article was about conservative pundits and thinkers; does Zywicki think that means "intellectuals"? Jonah Goldberg, an intellectual? The conservatives may be in bigger trouble than I thought.

He also makes another apples and oranges comparison. The TNR article asked general questions about a broad topic, evolution, on which there is virtually universal agreement among biologists, and found that many of the prominent voices in the conservative community are so far off the reality reservation that they disagree. This does not equate to asking liberals about subjects on which scientists legitimately and vigorously disagree—this is something on which we can reasonably expect to find disagreement among pundits, disagreement which is not indicative of a disconnect with the scientific community.

And what a silly question! "Are there biological differences between the sexes?" I do agree that if any liberal pundit says no, he or she is as much an idiot as those conservatives who claim evolution didn't occur. As for evolutionary psychology, I'm a biologist, and I'm in the camp that says it's a load of poorly done hokum, so I'll forgive Paul Krugman if he should think EP is junk; I'll be less pleased if he says he agrees with it, but since EP does have many proponents in academe and is taught at places like Harvard, I'll just have to roll my eyes and be understanding.

Zywicki lists the questions he'd ask. I'm not an official liberal pundit, but I do play one on my weblog, so I'll take a shot at them.

1. Are differences between men's and women's aptitudes solely a result of society and culture, or is there an evolutionary basis for some of those distinctions?

There is so much wrong with that question.

First, it assumes that there is a difference between men's and women's aptitudes. I know many women who are brilliant scientists, much smarter than I; it would be the act of a presumptuous pipsqueak for me to declare that my gonads bestow a greater aptitude for science on me.

But if I grant him that assumption, and agree that there is a statistical difference in the distribution of the sexes in various occupations which is in some way driven by gender, I would say that it is 100% the product of society and culture, and that it is 100% the product of biological evolution.

He's making the old, tired nature/nurture distinction, and it drives me nuts. It's a false dichotomy that is perpetuated by an antiquated misconception about how development and biology works. Genes don't work alone, they always interact with their environment, and the outcome of developmental processes is always contingent upon both genetic and non-genetic factors. There is nothing for which this is more true than the development of the mind: the brain is a structure which is incredibly plastic and responsive to input, since that is its job, to respond in sophisticated ways to complex situations.

Look, we're in the middle of a culture shift right now, and I see it nearly every day. Thirty years ago when I was in college most of my instructors and peers were male, and the stereotypical scientist would have been a guy with glasses and a white lab coat. It would have been easy to look around my classrooms and judge science as a male-dominated activity and make some half-assed guess that it had something to do with testosterone and bigger brains. Nowadays, I sometimes get class sections that are all women, and I feel a bit like a male dinosaur standing at the front of the room.

In biology at least, the trend is for the field to be populated by increasing numbers of women. In the next generation, the appropriate stereotype will be a woman in glasses and a white lab coat. Will the innatists start making half-assed guesses that it has something to do with estrogen and a nurturing instinct, or will they instead simply use the current situation of male privilege to prevent them from breaking into the upper ranks of the scientific hierarchy?

2. Do you think that schools should expose children to the scientific hypothesis that evolution has produced innate differences between men and women in interest and aptitudes, or should they teach that all differences are socially-constructed?

Neither. For one, "scientific hypothesis" is a generous promotion for the claim; I believe grade school kids ought to be instructed in the solid basics, not the hotly debated stuff on the edge. For another, this whole business of dividing the concept of gender differences into two wildly different and incompatible extremes, as I mentioned above, is lunacy.

3. Do you believe that Harvard's faculty was correct in censuring President Larry Summers for offering the hypothesis that differential performance by men and women in math and science achievement at elite universities may be in part the result of differential distribution of natural abilities in math and science between men and women at several standard deviations above the mean?

Emphatically yes.

What kind of idiot stands in front of a group of smart, accomplished, successful women scientists and tells them that he thinks women aren't as capable as men at doing science? He's in a room full of counterexamples, and he doesn't even notice? I say, fire him for being incompetent at his job and applying bad theory to administrative practice.

4. Do you believe that the theory of evolution applies to the evolution of mental traits as well as physiological traits?

The last question I refer to elsewhere as the question of "Neck-down Darwinism"--the idea that evolution applies only to the evolution of physical, but not mental, traits.

Oh. My. Gog. I've never paid much attention to Zywicki before, and now I see why: the guy is a flaming moron. "Neck-down Darwinism"? Not only does he use that term the evolutionarily clueless favor, "Darwinism", but he's invented this whole nonsensical straw man. I think EP is a pile of codswallop, but that definitely does not mean I think our heads poofed into existence magically.

Our brains are the product of evolution. I believe there has been selection for greater capacity, greater flexibility, and almost certainly other specific attributes in our species. I also believe that men and women belong to that same species, and both bear those same genes that have been the product of our evolution. There are different patterns of gene activity in men and women that are the consequences of different epigenetic influences; these definitely induce differences in development of the body, and may bias the development of the brain in various subtle ways, but any intrinsic biological differences in the operation of the adult brain are overwhelmed by social and cultural factors. My brain would be a very different thing if I'd grown up a child of neglect rather than as a member of a strong and supportive family, and those differences are more significant than if I'd been born a girl instead of a boy. I also think if I'd been born a girl, that it would be the subsequent expectations and pressures of family and society that would have a greater effect on my career choices than some slight difference in the size of my suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Will the left's religious faith in political correctness prove as powerful for liberals as traditional religious faith is for conservatives?

Man, he can't stop making up caricatures and straw men, can he? Opponents of evolutionary psychology do not dislike the field because of some political bias, but because we think it is poor science.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2557/aeNXeOd3/

Comments:
#31187: — 07/08  at  08:50 AM
Leiter writes, after stating that he has little tolerance for ID:
[The writers that]conducted this survey) plainly have their own "religious" beliefs when it comes to scientific questions. If we understand "religious" in this context along the lines of "unquestioned truths taken on authority" that render "taboo" certain scientific topics of inquiry or which is impervious to rejection by evidence, then it is plain that in some areas the left has elevated "religious" belief over scientific inquiry by turning certain scientific questions into unquestionable articles of faith, rather than open questions subject for scientific inquiry.


Leiter makes the false (but conervative dognmatic) claim that the "left" has elevated the legitimate claims of scientifc inquiry into articles of "religiuos faith". He then claims that these "articles" are not open to scientific inquiry.

This is an oft repeated but completely disingenuous argument. Leiter condemns ID, but extends the ID argument. Established science, under Lieter's view, can always be undermined trough the claims of psuedoscience or any politically motivated and properly packaged cause

I wish I had more time to write, but it is a stock trading day and things are moving



's avatar #31190: PZ Myers — 07/08  at  08:57 AM
NOT Leiter -- Leiter brought the article to my attention, but it's Todd Zywicki who is making those mistakes.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#31193: — 07/08  at  09:27 AM
PZ - I'm a long time lurker, and agree that this is a silly rejoinder on the part of Zywicki. My fear is that the crowing over the conservative pundit is at least poorly timed. I think that the thesis of these attacks is that conservatives, more so than liberals are forced into silly conclusions by ideology and ignorance. However the only data I have seen is that some conservatives make silly conclusions based on ideology and ignorance. There is no data on a similar set of liberal pundits. My confidence is high that they would fair better; it is low that there would be anything resembling a complete lack of ideology and ignorance. My inner scientist says: finnish the data collection.

My inner scientist also says keep up the educational fight. I interact regularly with some liberal engineers who believe in evolution but whose dogmatic faith is appealed to by ID. "But how could you prove that some action of a designer didn't happen somewhere/sometime?" they might ask. My most successful rebuttals have appealed to power. I think that claiming the ID proves God must move around by way of a flagellum is funny. They don't. But when I offer any of the hundreds of powerful explainatory mechanisms of evolution (I've recently read Dawkins' "The Ancestors Tail" and Carroll's "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" , plenty of raw material but I still come here for more) they are reminded of the reasons to embrace the more empirical viewpoint.



#31194: Alon Levy — 07/08  at  09:27 AM
Apparently, in some ideologues' dream worlds, there is no scientific research, only ideology and bias. There's no need to be surprised about that, considering that conservatives have been at the forefront of ignoring science for 2300 years.



#31195: pough — 07/08  at  09:52 AM
"Are there biological differences between the sexes?"

Pull down your pants, Todd, so we can get a good look at your mangina.



#31197: — 07/08  at  09:56 AM
"Will the innatists start making half-assed guesses that it has something to do with estrogen and a nurturing instinct, or will they instead simply use the current situation of male privilege to prevent them from breaking into the upper ranks of the scientific hierarchy?"

Answer: neither. They'll just say that bioscience is an unimportant activity. And salaries will go down--it always happens when a field feminizes.



#31198: — 07/08  at  09:59 AM
My apologies to Leiter. I stand corrected.



#31213: Amanda — 07/08  at  10:59 AM
Man, that guy's so dumb I'll bet he thinks he has ovaries.



#31214: Amanda — 07/08  at  11:02 AM
What's funny to me is all these men assume that if we determine intelligence is a sex-related genetic trait, that men will be the ones that are found more intelligent. I guess the best way to get them to calm down is to point out that if one sex is "naturally" smarter than the other, there's a 50% chance that it's women. Do they want their pathetic arguments about their right to dominate to be determined by a coin flip? I don't think so.



's avatar #31217: PZ Myers — 07/08  at  11:17 AM
I think instead they'll just try to redefine "intelligent" to mean "thinks like a man". No coin flip required.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#31219: — 07/08  at  11:24 AM
Just curious but what do you think of the differences between men and women's "spatial memory" and other mental differences? Some elaborate social mechanism borne out of the 1950's or a significant scientific finding that men and women approach the same issue from different points of view?

In reality it is likely unethical to thoroughly test this and many other hypotheses/theories, since it would require setting up a society that forcibly made both sexes as perfectly the same as possible from a social stand point.



's avatar #31222: PZ Myers — 07/08  at  11:32 AM
I have no problem with accepting that measurement may reveal statistical differences in specific cognitive abilities...just don't try to tell me that they are "genetic". They are built upon a biological substrate that is both genetic and environmental, and it's silly to say something as abstract and highly derived as "spatial memory" is simply innate.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#31227: jayinbmore — 07/08  at  11:59 AM

4. Do you believe that the theory of evolution applies to the evolution of mental traits as well as physiological traits?

The last question I refer to elsewhere as the question of "Neck-down Darwinism"--the idea that evolution applies only to the evolution of physical, but not mental, traits.

It always amazes me that the people who stand the most to lose from a "scientific" understanding of intelligence are always the ones who insist we accept one.



#31232: — 07/08  at  12:53 PM
Zywicki has responded to your post.

Update:

Oddly, Pharyngula says that I critique a straw man--while turning my argument into a straw man. Obviously there is an interaction between nature and nurture, which I thought was quite clear in my post and in my article linked in my post. And if the left is willing to acknowledge this fact, then that is great. Then we are left with an empirical question of understanding how nature and nurture interact. On the other hand, my impression is that there are many on the left who continue to deny any role for nature and instead adhere to a model of social construction of many of these traits and attributes.

Pharyngula also says:

This does not equate to asking liberals about subjects on which scientists legitimately and vigorously disagree—this is something on which we can reasonably expect to find disagreement among pundits, disagreement which is not indicative of a disconnect with the scientific community.

***

As for evolutionary psychology, I'm a biologist, and I'm in the camp that says it's a load of poorly done hokum, so I'll forgive Paul Krugman if he should think EP is junk; I'll be less pleased if he says he agrees with it, but since EP does have many proponents in academe and is taught at places like Harvard, I'll just have to roll my eyes and be understanding.

Now this is quite a sweeping indictment of the field of evolutionary psychology--the entire field is "a load of poorly done hokum." I am not aware of of any substantial disagreement among knowledgeable scientists on the following concepts in evolutionary psychology (just to name a few): Hamilton's theory of kin-group selection, Trivers's theory of reciprocal altruism, the innate ability to acquire culture, the unusual degree of plasticity of human minds relative to other species, the parent-child bond, certain types of aversion and disgust, the incest taboo, an innate ability to detect intentionality, that our brains neural circuits were designed by natural selection to solve problems that our ancestors faced during our species' evolutionary history, the specialization of different neural circuits for solving different adaptive problems--just to mention a few.

It is my understanding that there is little disagreement, much less "vigorous" disagreement, among knowledgeable scientists on these particular points. Perhaps Pharyngula is aware of raging debates over Hamilton's kin-selection theory, fo instance, of which I am unaware. If so, it would be useful for me at least to see some actual critiques of the specifics of some of these core concepts in evolutionary psychology, rather than a blanket dismissal of a straw-man version of evolutionary psychology with little more than a dismissive hand-wave and tired appeal to a purported authority.

There are also certainly plenty of other issues in evolutionary psychology around the periphery on which there certainly is disagreement (which is why, where relevant, I conditioned my claims accordingly). But it is just as erroneous to assume that all questions are unsettled as it is to deny the presence of unsettled questions. To suggest that the entire field is "hokum" or that it is all up in the air or subject to disagreement is simply inaccurate.



's avatar #31238: PZ Myers — 07/08  at  01:28 PM
He's squinking madly, isn't he?
I am not aware of of any substantial disagreement among knowledgeable scientists on the following concepts in evolutionary psychology (just to name a few): Hamilton's theory of kin-group selection, Trivers's theory of reciprocal altruism, the innate ability to acquire culture, the unusual degree of plasticity of human minds relative to other species, the parent-child bond, certain types of aversion and disgust, the incest taboo, an innate ability to detect intentionality, that our brains neural circuits were designed by natural selection to solve problems that our ancestors faced during our species' evolutionary history, the specialization of different neural circuits for solving different adaptive problems--just to mention a few.
That semi-random list of principles is not the same as EP. It's like saying that because Michael Behe understands and agrees that natural selection has occurred, Intelligent Design is therefore the same as accepted neo-Darwinian theory. Picking a few points of concordance while ignoring the points of divergence between two ideas to imply a unity of support that is not there is, well, dishonest.

Nah, I'm plainspoken. He's lying. There is substantial disagreement in the biological community on evolutionary psychology, and to imply that this question has been settled in his favor is either gross ignorance on his part or simple fraud. Of course there is currently an ongoing battle over EP; check out the last link in my article.

I'm actually being kind by conceding that there is a legitimate debate on the subject. I know very few scientists who don't think Pinker is full of shit.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#31240: Rana — 07/08  at  01:43 PM
Good take-down, PZ.

I just have to remark on the women have lesser "spatial abilities" or "mechanical abilities" or "math skills" thing. Even if you place it in the context of 1950s gender roles, it still doesn't wash, as anyone who has ever had to repair and maintain a sewing machine, design a kid's costume from scratch, or knit a complicated garment using five different yarns, one stitch at a time, would know.

Gender and sexual differences certainly exist, but to my perspective they are far less compelling than the differences between individuals, including between individuals of the same sex. I mean, hell, the category of "male" includes both Lance Armstrong and Michael Moore, jockeys and football players and basketball players, musicians and firemen, professors and coal miners, pundits and eggheads, drag queens and pro wrestlers, Woody Allen and Jesse Ventura. If you can tell me what special qualities these people have that make them distinct as a group from an equally varied group of women, aside from a Y chromosome and a penis, I'll give you a cookie.



#31245: — 07/08  at  02:10 PM
The last question I refer to elsewhere as the question of "Neck-down Darwinism"--the idea that evolution applies only to the evolution of physical, but not mental, traits.


"Neck-down Darwinism" doesn't go far enough: though I agree with Zywicki that evolution can't explain human mental faculties, I also refuse to accept that natural selection is capable of shaping any physical component of the cranium, pectoral extremities, or upper thorax. I am an adamant Xiphoid-down Darwinist.

Moreover, as Zywicki suggests, I emphatically reject the existence of any biological differences whatsoever between the sexes. I am also currently working on formulating a theory of reproduction. It is very hard.



#31251: coturnix — 07/08  at  02:37 PM
On the difference between Evolutionary Psychology and evolutionary psychology, this is useful:
http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2005/06/evolutionary-psychology-vs.html



#31253: Chris — 07/08  at  03:08 PM
Having had previous encounters with Volokh's Todd "I don't know shit about it, but I'm going to comment on it like I was an expert anway" Zywicki, and I've learned from those encounters (which included long, and incredibly frustrating email conversations in which he would fall deeper and deeper into a well of ignorance while, at the same time, becoming more and more convinced that he was right). Based on my experience, I can give you two pieces of advice:

1. Ignore him.
2. Ignore him some more.

When scholars are so blatantly unscholarly as Zywicki regularly is, especially where issues of science are concerned, on the Volokh blog, it's best to just pretend they don't exist.



#31268: saurabh — 07/08  at  04:45 PM
Err... at least as far as Trivers and reciprocal altruism goes in that litany, I'd say there's plenty of debate on extending the concept to human altruism. Blood-sharing in bats is great, but that sort of behavior bears almost no resemblance to the sappy sentiment most people think of when we say "altruism", and it's extraordinarily unlikely that they have a similar mechanism of origin.



#31273: Chris — 07/08  at  05:09 PM
Rana (as in frog?), the spatial reasoning ability differences between males and females are the only real cognitive difference that stands up across different parts of the curve (in the middle and at the ends), and over several related tasks. It's small, of course, but it's difficult to dismiss. What it means, exactly, and why it exists is unknown. It also shows up fairly early in development (you can't do a mental rotation task with an infant, so it's not clear exactly how early). Differences in math abilities, however, don't show up until about high school, and only exist in parts of the curve, in some test-taking contexts, and for secondary math skills. There is some evidence that differences in spatial reasoning ability account for a significant portion of the variance in secondary math skills (if I recall, it's around 15-20%, but it could be less), but the exact relationship between these two types of skills is unknown, and thus the innateness of gender differences in mathematical ability has only limited and indirect support.

There is also a great deal of evidence for social and individual psychological factors in gender differences in mathematical ability, including the context effects (different test-taking situations) and the fact that things like stereotype threat account for some (small) portions of the variance. If conservatives and liberals were both being honest, they would note that we just don't know to what extent differences in mathematical ability are due to innate factors, and how those factors (if they exist) interact with the environmental factors that also influence these differences. They'd note that the only difference we can be relatively sure of is in spatial reasoning, and that it's a very small difference that may or may not be related to math differences.

But as is often the case, people lose the science when it gets thrown in the stew with politics. Of course, Zywicki has never found the science, so he can't lose it.



#31283: — 07/08  at  06:17 PM
Reading the full Zywicki post and his follow ups I "get" what he's trying to say, but I just don't think it's worth saying. There's a big difference between mushy areas of current science that bump into socio-politics and long dead, ideologically driven pseudo-science. The whole post just sounds like "sure our guys are totally wrong, but some of your guys are sort of confused".



#31284: Richard B. — 07/08  at  06:21 PM
There seems to be an epidemic on this blog of loudly claiming victory in any debate in which the Pharyngulist has clearly lost. DarkSyde did this after claiming Iran and Iraq are model democracies, and P. Z. does it here after Ziwicki has clearly handed him his ass on a platter. I admire Myers' photographic memory and minute knowledge of flatworms, the larynx, and hormones but he doesn't seem to possess the kind of analytical reasoning skills that would enable him to make sensible conjecture at the boundaries of knowledge.

Ziwicki makes a apt analogy between the conservative conflict over creationism and the left's anguished rejection of EP and any other assertion of significant differences between men and women above the neck. In order to make meaningful statements about this subject on the basis of science, one would have to be armed with correlational knowledge from the broad fields of sociology, anthropology, and gender studies, knowledge that Myers clearly lacks (as he's demonstrated several times on this very blog.)

It's a shame that conservatives are so soft on creationism and the efforts to re-introduce it into science curricula under the guise of ID or "teaching the conflict". It's equally shameful that people like Myers approach the topic of sexual differences from the standpoint of a straight-jacketed ideology that insists on the politically correct answer independent of the facts.

It's also shameful to see Myers slandering Larry Summers over and over. Those of you who appreciate Myers' battling the ID menace should not encourage him in his gender folly. One reason conservatives are inclined to give the ID'ers a pass is the belief that for all their folly they're not as destructive to the culture as the doctrinaire feminists.



#31286: — 07/08  at  06:44 PM
Richard B, you don't seem to have actually read anything that PZ had to say. Whatever the "left" may or may not think about gender differences, and whether or not those folks are constrained by PC allegiances, and however you and Ziwicki may characterize any of that, nothing that PZ had to say is remotely aligned with any of that.

Instead of coming back at Ziwicki from any sort of "leftist" perspective (or from your caricature of same), PZ flanked your boss-man and totally demolished his antiquated and rigid nature-nurture stereotype of how any such differences may develop.

Was this point too subtle for you: even if there are some genetic or developmentally driven differences of this kind, the differences WITHIN members of a gender on any such axis overwhelm any differences BETWEEN genders.

Good grief!



#31287: Richard B. — 07/08  at  06:54 PM
This isn't a meaningful statement, even though it looks like one: "even if there are some genetic or developmentally driven differences of this kind, the differences WITHIN members of a gender on any such axis overwhelm any differences BETWEEN genders." It's the statement of one who's afraid the fully and completely analyze the nature of sex differences because he's afraid of what he might find.

Differences in height and upper body strength are greater among women than between women and men, apparently. What a shock.

And then there's the Summers point, that certain mental apttitudes are distributed differently among men and women, which is based on the interaction of the genes on the X and Y chromosomes, basic biology, but the mere mention of which causes the Rainman Myers to fly into a rage.

Yes, do go on.



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