#9536: — 11/22  at  10:34 PM
In a way this is not a surprising as it sounds (which makes it not less depressing). Since most of our fellow citizens claim to believe in God, specifically a Christian God, they are virtually obligated to believe that God has some hand in our creation and development.

So maybe the good news is that a significant percentage of nominal U.S. Christians dont believe that God guides human development.

The fact that they think creationism is some kind of science is another problem. I saw that earnest, pleasant lady on CBS tonight saying that it just seems fair to teach both sides of the story, and she doesnt see how fair people could not want creationism to be talked about and some innocent little stickers be put on books. For people who claim to be moral, they have a hell of a time telling right from wrong and fantasy from fact.

#9537: — 11/22  at  10:37 PM
Or, from the quote roll ...

Random quote

Creation science has not entered the curriculum for a reason so simple and so basic that we often forget to mention it: because it is false, and because good teachers understand exactly why it is false.

Stephen Jay Gould

#9538: — 11/22  at  10:39 PM
Even more on point....

Random quote

I would defend the liberty of concenting adult creationists to practice whatever intellectual perversions they like in the privacy of their own homes; but it is also necessary to protect the young and innocent.

Arthur C. Clarke

#9540: — 11/22  at  11:03 PM
OK, the 'old Europe' data is making it reeeeealy hard to keep looking for the silver lining.

Embarrasing, disgusting, outrageous, ludicrous.

How did we get to this point? How do we get out?

Apparently religion is the opiate of the masses and we are living in the middle of the worlds largest opium den.

#9541: Chris Clarke — 11/22  at  11:15 PM

Yes, I know. I’m out of touch with the average American, I’m a condescending elitist, and my attitude isn’t going to win me any friends among these people, and they vote. But, dammit, I’m proud to be an elitist in this case.

What the heck is elitist about recognizing our kinship with apes, sea urchins and slime molds? It's the creationists that think their shit doesn't stink.

#9543: lloydletta — 11/22  at  11:44 PM
lol, good point Chris.... I know that back a few decades, what motivated the US to start teaching more evolution in biology classes was the Soviet Union starting to do space exploration - that was a wakeup call to work hard on scientific competitiveness.

Great post on these Creationist wackos.... You always do quite well on that subject.

#9544: Ben — 11/23  at  12:29 AM
Hmm, no Australian data. Although the New Zealand figure of around 2/3 is probably a good indicator.

#9545: — 11/23  at  12:33 AM
I mean with all the evidence in hand, how could we not expect to see such a credible following for creationism:

http://creationevidence.org/fun_for_kids/kp006/kp6.html

And, err, although "Bible Inerrancy" and "Evolution" are not, strictly speaking, mutually exclusive categories, there's gotta be something wrong with those figures in the Phillippines. Maybe a lot of them are just uber-compatibilists.

#9546: DarkSyde — 11/23  at  01:09 AM

On the one hand, it’s good to see a quantifiable measure of what fraction of Bush supporters are idiots, and that, unsurprisingly, two thirds of them are.

I sat pondering the state of the electorate at dinner this evening after a 33 year old neighbor explained to me her rationale in voting for Bush "Any President who can land a jet on an aircraft carrier on live TV would know best about army stuff".

She thought Bush landed that jet ...

#9547: Doc Rampage — 11/23  at  01:22 AM
You know, I've always been curious about people who get so worked up over evolution. Why do you think evolution is such a big deal? Who cares if people don't believe it? What possible difference can it make to you or anyone else? Can't you spend your life happily teaching what you want and just ignore what other people are teaching?

Why don't you spend your time railing about something that is truly pernicious and dangerous like "alternative" medicine?

#9549: Chris Clarke — 11/23  at  02:09 AM

You know, I’ve always been curious about people who get so worked up over evolution. Why do you think evolution is such a big deal? Who cares if people don’t believe it? What possible difference can it make to you or anyone else? Can’t you spend your life happily teaching what you want and just ignore what other people are teaching? Why don’t you spend your time railing about something that is truly pernicious and dangerous like “alternative” medicine?

I won't speak for anyone else here. I do rail against some forms of alternative medicine, homeopathy and chiropractic in particular. One can rail against more than one form of charlatanism in one's life. I rail against Bush's Social Security privatization scheme as well.

I am troubled by creationism because I am an environmental activist, nature writer, and amateur natural historian. In order to protect this planet's biodiversity in the long term - I'm talking hundreds of years for those here who tend to think in deep time (Hi Carl!) - it is absolutely imperative that people in the mass understand the mechanics that generate that biodiversity, which means that evolutionary theory needs to be taught in schools.

There are people out there who deny that coal and oil are fossil fuels. I have heard young earth creationists tell me that calling them fossil fuels is a socialist canard, and that the stuff is being created at a rate that surpasses our current use. Hardly a basis for a sound resource extraction policy.

(I do a little handwaving over creationism and Bush environmentall policy here.)

Among my other careers has been that of horticulturist and pesticide applicator. A faulty understanding of evolution in this field poses a direct threat to human health and the environment, not only from the inevitable dumping of high doses of chemicals on increasingly resistant insects, but from the less-efficient vector control resulting from increasingly resistant bugs.

Mainly, though, I object to the gutting of biology education - which is really what we're talking about - because developing an educated eye for observing the natural world is a constant source of joy and fulfillment to me. And I'll be damned if I will let extremists deprive millions of kids a chance at that same joy just because they're too chickenshit to let their ideology compete freely in the marketplace of ideas. As others here have said, I have no problem with creationism being taught in public schools - the same way I don't have a problem with Lamarckianism being taught, in a fair and educated summation of each idea's strengths and weaknesses. The man who taught me about both those and (pre-Gould-Eldredge-era) evolutionary theory did exactly that. Somehow, he didn't find that conflicted with his devout Christian beliefs. That's not what the creationists want: they want government subsidies to have their views taught uncritically.

#9551: DarkSyde — 11/23  at  02:50 AM
Doc,

1. Creationism represents religious fundamentalism; one of the most devastating phenomena in the history of mankind when it's part of an over all ideology. A quick look around the world will illustrate handily that those societies with the most repressive anti-science ideologies-all of which teach creationism btw-are some of the most miserable places on earth to live. There is a clear correlation between fundamentalism, nationalism, ideology, and human misery stretching back to the earliest recorded history of mankind.
Understand this carefully: It's not religion per se, it's the fusion of religion with an ideology that is historically dangerous, that is from the vantage of the common guy in that culture.

2. A population of ignorant credulous 'tards who swallow anything an authority claims, no matter how bizarre, as long as it's stamped with 'religion', is a population which can be easily manipulated to the detriment of everyone involved; with the possible exception of a tiny class of elite who call the shots and who cannot be questioned because to do so would be sacrilegious.

3. It's a blast to learn science and this is a way to learn new stuff fast. I had a good handle on natural science before I became involved in this, but <i>nothing</i. like I do now.

4. We got off on it. It's like a hobby for some of us.

5. Our culture is absolutely utterly dependent on the applications of science for our way of life and continued well being. Nothing, no prayer, no magic shamans, no hocus pocus, has done a damn bit of good in helping people outside of making them and their families feel better about events they cannot control. Thus we have a vested interest in perpetuating and enhancing our scientific capabilities and that's not going to happen if we let fundies take control of anything and start teaching magic as a viable alternative to science. Science cures disease, science produces our food, science provides for our defense, etc. To ignore science or to even water it down with bullshit is like killing the goose that laid the golden eggs.

#9552: — 11/23  at  04:57 AM
I just don't believe that figure.

It's surely far too high, isn't it?

Just how did they find 7% of Brits who "believe in Bible inerrancy"?!

#9553: Mis-nagid — 11/23  at  06:53 AM
What so bad about being elitist? The word 'elitism' has an undeserved pall about it. I have some quotes from In Defense of Elitism by William A. Henry III on my blog. Here's one that's especially relevant to this discussion:

"The very essence of school is elitism. Schools exist to teach, to test, to rank hierarchically, to promote the idea that knowing and understanding more is better than knowing and understanding less." --page 59

#9554: — 11/23  at  07:10 AM
Ok people, we can sit in here and bitch all we want. We need to go out and push these issues in the public eye. We need to organize as well.

Are you good at Physics? Biochemistry? Help out your friends to understand how to debate those aspects that the creationist lie about in your field. You know Paleo? Teach your friends how to debate the fossil record. Know geology? Get together a list of reasons that show why the universal global flood is bunk, and explain it so your non-geologists friends get it. After you've done this, send them out into the streets if need be!

Fight the frich back!!!

#9555: DarkSyde — 11/23  at  07:21 AM
If you want religious folks to so much as listen to the scientific rationale, you want to avoid allowing the creationists to frame the debate as Evolution/atheism Vs God.

#9556: Mis-nagid — 11/23  at  07:35 AM

If you want religious folks to so much as listen to the scientific rationale, you want to avoid allowing the creationists to frame the debate as Evolution/atheism Vs God.

No one worth listening to frames it as such. It is patently obvious that evolution cannot say anything meaningful about gods; nothing ever has, why should evolution be different?

Where you go astray is confusing god and specific religion. God is theism -- the mere attestation of a the existence of a deity. That is unfalsifiable by any means; unassailable, and rightly unafraid of evolution.

However, while many of the founders of this country were Deists, the people at the other end of this discussion are not. They are Mormons, Catholics, Shiites and Ultraorthodox Jews. The claims they make go far beyond "god." Their gods have a history of human interaction, and their myths lay claim to vast swaths of biology, chemistry, anthropology and cosmology. Theirs is the platform of religion, not god. They stick their neck out into the path of oncoming evidence, with predictably gory results.

You say that we shouldn't frame the debate as evolution vs. god. We never have. The argument has always been about evolution versus other scientific claims. It's just that the science of theologians was grounded in fantasy, and failed.

#9557: PZ Myers — 11/23  at  07:48 AM
As Jason Rosenhouse explains, evolution is the cornerstone of biology. It is as thoroughly confirmed as the germ theory of disease, it is good science, and biology simply cannot progress without it. That's why it matters. We have tens of millions of kids being brought up with false nonsense on this subject stuffed in their heads.

And, as I am pointing out here, I would think any real American patriot would want his countrymen to be well-informed and educated, and poised to advance our country scientifically. Why do you hate America so, that you think it unimportant that our people to wallow in ignorance?

(Oh, and I have railed against alternative medicine. I've cussed out the NIH alternative medicine panel (frauds, all of 'em), and 'Northwestern' 'Health' 'Sciences' 'University' (four lies in their name alone!) is up here in Minnesota. I despise those guys.)

#9558: — 11/23  at  07:51 AM
But you forgot about Poland! - W.

#9559: Bryson Brown — 11/23  at  08:06 AM
Two more reasons to rail at creationism:

1. Silence is consent.

2. Bad thinking habits don't confine themselves to one topic at a time.

Once the evidence doesn't matter anymore, once people feel free to re-write it, or ignore it, or to believe whatever they please regardless of the evidence, we're in a serious mess. If creationism is tenable, then so is the claim that invading Iraq is part of the 'war' on terror (not to mention the claim that Saddam played a role in 9/11), rather than a neo-con attempt (ironically led by a bunch of chicken-hawks) to assert American power and put an end to the constraints on the use of power that we struggled to negotiate following WWII. A very risky move in a world that will be economically dominated by the Chinese and India within 40 years (especially since the U.S.'s fiscal position is deteriorating so rapidly). If it's all about power and alliances (in a world with widespread nuclear weapons) then I don't like my daughter's life prospects-- not to mention her childrens'.

Then there's global warming, and environmental and sustainability issues... Evidence matters-- and truth matters (as the Gould quote emphasizes)-- and we need to insist on both everywhere.

#9560: — 11/23  at  08:24 AM
Mis-nagid, although the sects you mention do push religion rather than "god", I doubt they are the primary supporters of the ignorance called creationism. I think creationism supporters are primarily fundamentalist or near-fundamentalist christians. I seriously doubt that Jews, who have a tradition of education, are represented anywhere near their proportion in the US population.

#9561: — 11/23  at  08:39 AM
Evolution is just the current battle - it's reality vs religion. If you accept the scientific method for determining reality, you accept the reality of evolution.

If you don't accept the scientific method, and instead believe in magic voices, you are insane.

Were there any justice in the world, we'd deny those who don't believe in science any benefits of it. It would be a handy social darwinist experiment to watch the idiot hordes die off without access to medicine.

But that's the difference between the religious and the realists - we offer compassion even to those who don't deserve it, and those who even as they beg for the handouts of our work try to destroy the foundation of that work. It's counterproductive to heal those who want to destroy science, but it's compassionate.

I blame the increasing numbers of the insane on lead in the water.

#9562: — 11/23  at  09:07 AM
"But that’s the difference between the religious and the realists - we offer compassion even to those who don’t deserve it"

A very large percentage of Americans are religious and would take issue with that statement. Some of you people need to wake up and look around you. Stop judging religious people in general by their worst examples. I don't judge all non-religious people by looking at Dawkins. He's about the most horrible person I've ever heard of, but he's a genius, no doubt. That doesn't mean all of you are condescending assholes. How can you criticize creationists for labeling you falsely and then turn around and do the same thing to religious people?

#9564: — 11/23  at  09:26 AM
Heh - don't tar everyone with my opinions, fella.

It was I who said that. Not "all of you". So call me a condescending asshole for thinking all religious are complete morons, not everyone else who tries to tolerate and be nice and gentle with idiots.

#9568: — 11/23  at  10:01 AM
It's terribly mean and cruel to ask religious to measure themselves against whether their beliefs coincide with provable reality. And certainly you're right that there are religious groups that are religious in name only - who have gone so far in acceptance of reality that they have pushed their concept of a deity all the way out of the envelope of interaction into a named but impotent concept useful only as an organizing principle, and as a way to counter fear of death with a promise of unprovable afterlife. Though I'm not sure how that can be called religion, any belief that doesn't include magical action doesn't conflict with scientific reality, so is outside the bounds of the American Taliban movement.

What remains are people who believe in magic, and whether or not evolution is on the table, there's a fundamental conflict between belief in magic and belief in science... it isn't science if the underlying laws of reality can be cancelled by magic.

This is an argument that one side has always framed as "we've got to stamp out those heathen athiest scientists because they are the force of evil!" and the other side has meekly framed as "well, um, we just have this sort of undeniable fact that's in conflict with your completely ok and correct belief in magic and fairies and pixies, so, um, well if you don't mind is it ok if maybe we once in a while let kids in on the secret that even though your Magic Book is always right, there's um, this theory that maybe there's a real world out there that acts with logic. But it's not like it conflicts with your Magic Book! We'd never insult you by claiming that pixies aren't real, we, um, just want to carve out a little space over here in the corner where we tell kids that sometimes gravity works too and maybe gravity is the way pixies work their magic."

Screw that.

Adults who believe in pixies and fairies should be embarassed. It's the absurd lip service everyone pays to accepting that adults believe in fairies and pixies and a 6,000 year old earth that has led to the bizarre state we are in - belief in science is DECREASING in America. What could be more scandalous than that? And what could be more dangerous?

If we let slip the moorings to reality to be polite, we still cast ourselves adrift on the chaotic seas of superstition, in which any demogogue can wrench this country into a religious war... for once we give up arguing that reality is superior to a false consciousness of belief in magic, what use would it be arguing that any public policy should be informed by fact?

Condescension, really, is the position that the religious can never accept reality. No kid every learned math with a teacher who said "that's right Timmy, 1+1=3 because that's the way you feel and I don't want to embarass you."