#2208: — 05/04  at  09:42 PM
Ah, but I can see the Shrubby spin: Rich Tillman is obviously a rebellious young man bent on causing trouble. After all, he doesn't even have enough respect for the dead to dress nicely at the funeral, or use clean language. So there really isn't reason to believe that Pat was an athiest. Besides, Pat is a hero. Heroes can't be athiests.

What our unesteemed politicians understand all too well is that the image of the messenger matters more than the message.

#2209: Ben — 05/04  at  11:11 PM
Wow. I completely take back and apologise unreservedly for any thoughts I had of the guy being a poor, indoctrinated simpleton. The lad certainly had more integrity than I. It's also slightly telling that he went to Afghanistan, which actually has much to do with the "war on terror", as opposed to Iraq, which has little to do with anything before the coalition kicked up that oil-soaked hornet's nest and pretended that any actions of terrorist insurgents in retaliation to occupation proves their unsubstantiated Saddam/911 links.

#2210: — 05/04  at  11:13 PM
As an atheist I can tell you firsthand that just because you might scream "oh God" while under fire, it's not a affirmation of faith! I seem to remember a lot of "oh Shit" too, and I have never been accused of worshipping feces.

From what I've read of Pat Tillman, all the clamor over his death is not what he would have wanted. He certainly wouldn't have wanted people to fight over how he should be remembered. He was a tough kid who knew what he was giving up and what he was getting in to. I'll respect his wishes and and think of him as equal to the all the other young people who have died serving a country that should not have put them in harm's way so recklessly.

#2211: Ben — 05/05  at  12:09 AM
Not to labour the point, but from John McCain's eulogy:

To Marie, Pat and Danny, to Kevin and Rich, to Alex and all Pat's friends, I can only offer you the assurance that my faith promises me is true. To all of you who loved Pat, and were loved by him, he will never be so far from you that you cannot feel his love. And you will see him again, when a loving God reunites us all with the loved ones who preceded us in death. Take care of each other until then, as Pat would want you to. May God bless him. And may God bless us all.

Clearly he's not aware that Pat is, in fact, roasting in Christian hell for not accepting Jesus into his heart.

#2212: Gyan — 05/05  at  05:08 AM
I can appreciate that someone can make a conscientious commitment to serve one's country, and even in an unjustified, wrong-headed war, the soldiers doing the dangerous work have to be considered heroic. Any blame for lousy policies that lead to bad actions attaches only to the policy makers.

This is a tricky proposition.

The question is, should feedback in a democracy be limited strictly to elections? Is the political decision making process a black box, open to interaction only once every period (term)? If yes, then your sentiment is consistent. If no, then it is one's obligation to provide true feedback onto the representatives. This entails holding your self in highest regard. So, if you don't agree with a decision A, you don't cooperate with it. This ensures the (ideal) functioning of democracy by letting the representatives know where their constituents stand, so even if the representatives aren't expected to be relay robots, they have proper context and a bearing of the "pulse", and not a feedback which is dictated by inertia, fear and peer pressure (ideally).

In that context, is Tillman a hero?

#2213: — 05/05  at  06:48 AM

We really could use more folks like Tillman. He was a class act all the way.

As far as Bush/Rummy/Cheney go, I'd guess this Abu Ghraib has about done them in. It's appalling to even their stauncher religious base of support. On the talk shows, even their normally supportive drones are distancing themselves from Iraq ala Bush. That sentiment waa echoed to me privately by many of my conservative freinds and co-workers as well as acorss the Internet.

It guts the one slender thread of rationale Bush was using to appeal to the American public and the world at large; that Saddam was so perversly inhumane he had to go in the interest of international decency and we were doing some good in that venue.

So much for that argument. Nor does it matter if Saddam was roasting babies for breakfest, we hold our leaders and our service people to a much higher standard.

I wonder if Bush has even began to grapple with the inevitable conclusion that Rummy-being the head of the Defense Department and thus ultimately responsible- has to go as a matter of course. Based on past performance (which is no guaruntee of future results<G>) my bet is that he has not confronted that yet and may never do so.

The whole thing is heartbreaking. We can get rid of Bush, but it's going to be a very long time before the fallout from his moronic policies settles down. For the time being, we're being perceived in the arab world as perverted, jack-booted, gestapo thugs.

Pat Tillman, from all the accounts I've, genuinely read embodies the ideals of America. He was the 'real deal'.
Not these scary neocons in Washington. I'd trade a hundred Bush's for one Pat Tillman anyday.

~DS~

#2214: — 05/05  at  08:59 AM
As to "the war," I'm more inclined with each day that passes to agree with you--if you mean Iraq. Afghanistan was, I think, a war fought for exactly the right reasons. Given that he died in Afghanistan, presumably fighting Taliban and al Qaida holdouts, I see Tillman as a good man who died in a good cause.

Ted Rall's unwillingness (or incapacity) to distinguish Afghanistan from Iraq renders his cartoon even more loathsome than it would otherwise have been.

#2215: — 05/05  at  09:21 AM
In the history of the world, the following exchange involving G.H.W. Bush is among the most disgusting things ever put to voice by a US president:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

#2216: — 05/05  at  10:27 AM
Folks, if you'll look at the eulogy again, you'll notice that the reference was to what the minister's faith tells him. He does not condemn Pat to a firey hell. He refers to a loving god that reunites us all after death. If Pat were an atheist or not is irrelevant. Personally, I don't share his belief, but let's not put words in other people's mouths. How does it hurt you that others believe in a god that is just and admonishes his believers to accept and/or forgive those who are different?

#2217: — 05/05  at  10:27 AM
Gyan noted:

"In that context, is Tillman a hero? "

I'd say yes, specifically because of the "war" he was involved with, namely Afghanistan instead of Iraq. I think our reasons for going into that country were a little more justified (although I think having to go to war represents a failure at other levels).

Don't know who said it, but I saw a good quote about that familiar quote about atheists and foxholes,

" 'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism. It's an argument against foxholes."

#2218: — 05/05  at  10:58 AM
Aaron,

Agreed. Afghanistan had to happen. Sad as it may be, as horrible as war is for the unfortunate bystanders caught in the cross fire or rounded up in random sweeps and interogated, the Taliban hosted a foriegn group of fanatics who whacked us good, and we can't allow that to continue. They had to go.

The puzzling thing is why we pissed away the ensuing opportunity to show the world what we're all about.
We could have rebuilt Afghanistan for peanuts compared to what we're laying out in Iraq and the entire world was on our side in pursuing that.

We could have facilitated a democracy, we could have brought in humanitarian aid, we could have paved the way for the Afghan people to be educated and to join the modern world, we could have preserved human rights. We could have followed a Mashall Plan template and garnered the respect of many arab people.
Shit, for the kind of money we're talking about in Iraq, we could have built high speed railways and four lane super highways in Afghanistan, employing locals along the way and improving thier economy.
Not to mention we'd be addressing the actual origin of 9-11 in the first place.
All of this would have demonstrated to the Islamic world, as well as any utopian fantasy proposed in Iraq, exactly what America is all about.

Instead, we're now seen as conquering, immoral, hypocritical, perverse, psychos. Osama must be ecstatic. I can understand why he or anyone else might conlude Allah really is on his side.

It just infuriates me. I'm so angry I can't see straight.

I've never felt more fortunate to live in a democracy than right now, because we can vote this bumbling failure out of office (assuming he doesn't try some kind of Martial Law bullshit. A suggestion I would have dismissed as left wing paranoia, until now).

~DS~

#2219: Ben — 05/05  at  05:12 PM
Folks, if you’ll look at the eulogy again, you’ll notice that the reference was to what the minister’s faith tells him. He does not condemn Pat to a firey hell. He refers to a loving god that reunites us all after death. If Pat were an atheist or not is irrelevant. Personally, I don’t share his belief, but let’s not put words in other people’s mouths. How does it hurt you that others believe in a god that is just and admonishes his believers to accept and/or forgive those who are different?

Doesn't bother me one bit, because I'm aware of the fact that it's bullshit. My point is that religious faith is fundamentally a social phenomenon of exclusivity, deeply entrenched by the illusory, fear-based concepts of infinite reward and infinite punishment. Of course McCain didn't "condemn Pat to a fiery hell", or else he would've been chased away by rock throwers. But the unnamed implications exist in the dogma of the Christian religion under the precepts of "God's Word"; implications which are papered over when not referring to "bad guys" like communists and homosexuals. Bad has nothing to do with it. In order to get into Christian heaven, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven; Einstein isn't. The hypocrisies are staggering, but they're not alluded to in such scenarios because they're unpopular. McCain, unless he's a religious deist (which I enormously doubt), is, in effect, lying by omission. You can't have it both ways.

#2220: — 05/05  at  06:49 PM
Jeffrey Dahmer's in heaven and Einstein's in hell? I haven't seen the guest list. Oh, I forgot. Atheists don't believe in heaven or hell. With all the hand-wringing I see here, I'm not so sure there's not a large portion of atheists who are simply rebelling against what they see as normal society.

What is your real complaint about America and/or conservatives?

#2221: — 05/05  at  09:50 PM
When did this morph into a discussion of America and conservatives? I thought it was a discussion of the injustice of the concept of salvation by grace.

The Calvinist concept of salvation, of course, has its own brand of injustice.

#2222: — 05/05  at  10:25 PM
God wishes he were as cool as Tillman. But I read the bible. He's a monster. Like Hitchens said, the difference between Saddam Hussein and god is, you can escape Saddam by dying.

#2223: Ben — 05/05  at  10:32 PM
kinslow, go and Google "atheism" and do some research, because I don't feel like educating you. Google "Christianity" while you're at it, and you'll find that qualifying for the "guest list" is probably the most unequivocal feature of the religion.

#2224: — 05/06  at  11:08 AM
the christian god's like the worst ever Mafia boss: You can torture people, molest kids, whatever, as long as you still submit to god and be loyal, you win the prize in the end. If you're the kindest person in the world, and you don't respect the Don, you get tortured in the end. I don't know how anyone with any ethics could approve of that.

#2225: — 05/07  at  08:15 AM
Kinslow,

My real complaint-as a registered republican- about these neocon clowns is they've hijacked my party, and are pissing away the treasure of my country and the lives of my countrymen doing stupid, counter productive shit, spewing polarizing rhetoric which appeals to religious extremists holding bizarre ideological beliefs, funded by mega rich energy interests, and making sure we are reviled around the world.

Meanwhile, the fanatics that attacked us on 9-11 must be absolutely convinced more than ever that Allah is on their side, as they watch our executive office make blunder after blunder facilating their cause beyond their wildest dreams.

Iraq is a godawful, shitty, giant mess, for a lot of reasons.
But from a purely mainstream republican viewpoint, I can't understand how any conservative could argue that blowing hundreds of billions of dollars building a utopian democracy in another country thousands of miles away, and driving up the budget deficit by trillions, is in line with classical conservative principles.

That's what bleeing heart, hippy, liberals get accused of Kinslow. Blowing huge sums of tax dollars, spending enormous sums of money we don't have, and getting a lot of good soldiers killed, to build happy, warm fuzzy systems in other places with no benefits to American taxpayers. (Wasn't Somalia called Clinton's failure...)

The only thing remotely republican about it is the business angle; that a great deal of that tax money is going to end up in the coffers of big oil. Which incidentally stinks to high heaven given the Bush/Cheney energy connection, and an ethical admin would bend over backwards to avoid even the appearence of that kind of nepotism.

And to be honest with you, I'm so disgusted with republican supporters who blindly parrot the party line that Bush is doing a good job, when in fact he has sold out conservative principles and is an utter failure on everything from the economy to the war on Terror, I've given up for the time being, and I'd vote for Al Sharpton over Bush at this point.

DS~