Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Wednesday, September 14, 2005

Timothy Birdnow

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

Laugh, cry, curl up into a fetal ball and close my eyes…I'm not sure what I want to do. There is a site called The American Thinker which I read for the first time today, and all I can say is that if this is what they call American thinking, we have grounds for a class action suit for libel on behalf of every citizen in the US.

In particular, they've published an article, The case against Darwin, written by a property manager in St. Louis, Timothy Birdnow. It's clear that he's ideologically compatible with far right wing pseudoscience, but reading his essay was a hilarious exercise, rather like reading children's funny exam answers. The science is a mangled mish-mash, almost entirely wrong, delivered with an astoundingly confident tone that disregards its own obvious contradictions.

For instance, Birdnow is confident that DNA could never have come into existence.

What, you may ask, is the connection between Einstein`s proof of atoms [his explanation of Brownian motion] and Darwinism? Darwinism argues that all life evolved from a less complex state. Following the chain of life backwards, one eventually comes to the most basic unit of life-Deoxyribonucleaic Acid (the DNA molecule). The DNA molecule is composed of the even simpler RNA molecule, and is the fundamental building block of life. It is the largest, most complex molecule in nature. According to Einstein`s theory, the original DNA (and RNA) Molecules should not have formed and survived since there are being constantly buffetted by energized atoms. The establishment of life required energy, and that energy meant that the nascent DNA was exposed to more energetic particles which should, logically, have prevented the formation of such a large and complex molecule. That this molecule not only formed but spread suggests different mechanism at work then those proposed by the Darwinists.

  • DNA is not made of RNA. They are two molecules with similar structures, but different sugar backbones and a small difference in the bases.
  • The phrase "According to Einstein's theory" is dishonest: nothing Einstein ever said suggested that DNA could not form.
  • Think about what this guy is saying. Because molecules are in constant motion, DNA could not have formed. Yet this is not a condition that was only true at the beginning of life, but is also the case now. How does he imagine DNA is synthesized now?

Many defenders of evolution try to argue that entropy only applies to a closed system, and that the Earth is not a closed system. This is facetious; entropy increases when systems are mixed, and the first life forms could not have survived except under very particular conditions. They had to have a closed system, or at least a very sheltered system, initially to survive! Any way you look at it, a self-replicating entity had to gain in complexity at the molecular level despite increasing entropic pressures. There has to be a guiding principle involved. You just can`t make order out of chaos! Systems decay.

  • "facetious: treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant." Perhaps he meant "fallacious"? Either way, he's wrong.
  • Aww, just read the FAQ. This is just the old "second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution" canard; it's not true.
  • I don't think he understands what a "closed system" is. In a closed system, entropy will increase—without the input of energy, living systems die.
  • If systems decay as an invariable and unbreakable rule, where did Mr Birdnow come from?

In fact, genes and chromosomes decay on a regular basis. One of the largest causes of mental retardation is called fragile X syndrome, and it is the result of chromosomal decay where one of the legs of the X has crumbled away. The Chromosome is no longer an X but isn`t a Y either, and this results in numerous problems. Mutations of genetic material happens regularly, and is rarely of any benefit to the unlucky inheritor. A benevolent mutation generally requires an increase in complexity, not a disintigration of the chromosome or gene. Disintigration generally means decay. Decay makes you sick, or dead; it does not make you grow. Evolution claims you can decay your way up!

  • I've written a bit about fragile X syndrome. Birdnow doesn't have anything right here.
  • It does not cause "crumbling" of the X, nor does it mean the X is something other than an X chromosome. Fragile X is caused by trinucleotide repeat expansion; the excessive repeats stimulate excessive methylation, which inactivates a nearby gene that is important in transducing a synaptic response into a change in protein synthesis.
  • Mutations are rarely harmful.
  • Mutations can increase complexity.

Another paradox in Darwin`s theory is the lowly virus. A virus is basically a free floating strand of DNA (or RNA for the most ancient varieties like the Filoviruses which cause Ebola) which invades a cell and takes over the cell`s control functions. The virus suddenly comes to life, reproducing at a prodigious rate. After exhausting the cell, the virus returns to it`s quiet slumber.

Now, the virus must predate the cellular organisms, and yet there is no way a virus can reproduce without a host. We have no examples of self-replicating viruses, viruses which can exist on their own. What we see is reverse evolution; the virus is evolved to feed on the more complex organism.

It is possible that early viruses were able to exist without a host, and that the change in the Earth`s atmosphere killed them. Perhaps none of them could tolerate oxygen. One would still expect to find remnants of these ancient viral life forms in sheltered places. We don`t, and regular viruses require a host. The problem is that there doesn`t appear to be any way for these organisms to have flourished.

  • Viruses do not "come to life". They consist of short gene sequences that are translated by the cell, and carry out functions that use cellular machinery to reproduce themselves.
  • Viruses almost certainly do not predate cellular organisms. They are parasitic sequences that evolved to take advantage of cells. (Although there most probably were prebiotic equivalents of viruses that parasitized early replicators, I suspect.)
  • The existence of viruses that live independently of any host is a contradiction in terms.
  • Mr Birdnow should read a simple summary of virus evolution, because he has got everything wrong. Again.

Next we come to the problems with the fossil record. Everyone has heard of the missing link; the transition creature between Man and the Apes. We`ve never really found him-in fact, we`ve never really found any link between one species and another. Scientists have found species with similarities, but the transitions are simply not there. It is inherent in Darwinism that species make a smooth, seamless transition from one form to another. The reality is that we see no such transitions in the fossil record, and evolutionists struggle to hide or explain away this embarrasing fact.

Furthermore, we don`t even see crossovers between the 5 Phylla (classes of animals) anywhere, at any time. Where are the giant mammaried mosquitos? Where are the snakes which deliver live young? I haven`t seen too many feathered fish around lately! The species remain distinct, and they shouldn`t if Darwin is correct. Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called ``Great Dying``, 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5. If Darwin`s concept of Natural Selection is correct we should have seen numerous crossovers as species from all branches competed to fill in the newly vacated gaps in the ecology. That we can find no evidence of any crossover is damning of Darwin`s theory.

  • There are approximately 30 animal phyla (and it's spelled with one "l").
  • Many snakes, including the common garter snake, are live-bearers.
  • "Crossovers"? Mammaried mosquitos? The absence of chimeras is a piece of evidence for evolution. We do not expect mosquitos and dairy cows to ever hybridize.
  • There were no mammals or birds before the Permian extinction, nor were there any for about 100 million years after.

Another point to consider is the matter of the size of animal life on Earth. During the Jurassic, Dinosaurs grew to enormous sizes, fueled by plentiful food and a high atmospheric oxygen content. Yet we see mammals grow large during the Pleistocene, with Mastadons, giant beavers, Saber-Toothed Tigers all being larger than creatures today. This was an era of scarcity and lower oxygen, yet we witness the same response to the environment. Why? If Natural Selection is correct, the most successful creatures during the Ice Age would be the smaller ones. We see the same biological response to two radically different conditions.

  • The idea that animals grew larger because of higher oxygen content is simplistic and wrong. It sounds like someone's been reading the creationist, Carl Baugh.
  • The most successful creatures during the Jurassic, the Ice Ages, and modern times were and are the smallest ones: the bacteria.
  • Mastodons are not the same as diplodocids. Obviously, we did not witness the same responses in the Mesozoic and the Cenozoic.

Speaking of Dinosaurs, why are they all gone? Dinosaurs came in all sizes, some quite small and nimble. Birds are the last remnants of the beasts which once ruled the Earth. Why? Granted, the large ones were unfit to survive, but the small ones should have been able to adapt without having to develop flight. We should still see some of the smaller ones like Procompsognathus. They were every bit as nimble, as fit, to survive as their mammalian rivals. Yet they are gone. Why did they all turn into birds? Evolutionary theory suggests that the surviving dinosaurs should have scattered in all directions genetically after their extinction. They didn`t; they went in only one direction, while mammals evolved to fill their former niches.

  • The best current explanation for the absence of the dinosaurs is a catastrophic extinction event triggered by a massive meteor impact. The effects of the impact had long term ecological effects that destroyed most species on the planet.
  • All of the dinosaurs except one lineage, a group that led to the birds and that evolved tens of millions of years before the end of the Cretaceous, were killed. They did not survive. There were no scattered bands of survivors that all independently evolved into birds.
  • The 'dinosaurs' that survived the extinction were already birds.

Any way you look at the issue, Darwinism is on the ropes. The supporters of Darwin have resorted to frauds in the past to prove their theory-Piltdown Man was a combination of human and ape remains. Remember the famous Moth hoax where evolutionists claimed they had found moths in London which had changed from white to black because industrial soot had made being black safer? Turns out they faked their evidence. Now the evolutionists are trying to silence any competing theories through scholastic bans and mockery. They seem desperate.

I wonder why?

  • Piltdown was a fraud that was exposed by scientists. It was not a significant part of the evidence for human evolution, however, and Mr Birdnow must ignore all the genuine evidence to make his point.
  • Peppered moths weren't faked. The story still stands as a valid, but complex, example of evolution.

Evolutionists aren't desperate—we're exasperated. We have to deal with appalling levels of ignorance like Mr Birdnow's; I think it's only appropriate that we respond with mockery. I've tried to point out some of the more glaring errors of fact in his essay (there's much more—I've been slightly selective), and it should be clear that his work is embarrassingly uninformed, revealing a complete lack of any competency in biology, of a level comparable to what I might expect from a fifth grader…although no fifth grader I've ever met has the arrogance to think he is an authority in science. What he has written is garbage, and it's been published as if it were a serious piece of scholarship by a right-wing online rag, and I've had to waste 45 minutes picking apart a fraction of the egregious errors present in it.

The only appropriate response here is to point out that Birdnow is an idiot. He's a gumby. He's a particularly outrageous example of the creationist morons who want to dictate our schools' curricula from a position of utter ineptitude.

We "evolutionists" are not interested in "scholastic bans" of ideas. I do think it entirely fair that we have scholastic standards that reject rank stupidity of the kind Mr Birdnow offers.


I'm a right wicked bastard. Birdnow discussed revisiting this subject in another article, so I hit him with a challenge. Creationists typically dance from error to error, keeping the balls juggling so fast that you can't keep up, and definitely can never pin them down. So I picked one point in his article and told him to explain it. Here's my challenge:

By the way, if you do revisit this subject, please address this one point from your article.

Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called "Great Dying", 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5.

You should be aware that in those 3 sentences, you made 4 immense errors.

  1. There are many more than 5 phyla; about 30.
  2. Mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and insects are not separate phyla. The first four all belong to one phylum (Chordata) and the last belongs to another (Arthropoda).
  3. There were no mammals or birds in the Permian.
  4. There were no mammals or birds in the Triassic.

In other words, your entire point was wrong in multiple ways. Those are simple errors of fact that show you have no knowledge at all of the subject about which you were babbling.

Consider this a challenge. If you can't address those gross errors when you revisit the subject, I'm going to point out the fact with great amusement.

I wonder what will happen? Dodge, weasel, stonewall, or do some kind of spastic flibbertigibbet dance?


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2926/32FMWxHg/

Comments:
#40354: Alon Levy — 09/16  at  05:11 AM
Does anyone devote so much time and effort to something they think has no validity?

Only every serious person...



#40360: — 09/16  at  06:37 AM
Birdnow has posted a reply on his blog, and singles out Myers: Darwinists Launch Jihad Against Birdblog

If ever I needed proof that Darwinism is more faith than science, this rant by a professor of biology in Minnesota provides it. He launches into a furious assault on my article The Case Against Darwin which appeared in the American Thinker a while back.

First off, I`d like to point out that this article received little attention when it was published. Obviously, some of Professor Myers` students read it and were disturbed by my arguments, so they called in the Big Gun. Professor Myers goes on to insult me in every way imaginable, showing himself to be not just closed-minded but also quite intolerant and nasty. He devoted an enormous amount of time to what he views as extraordinarily stupid-which proves that I touched a nerve. To paraphrase Shakespeare ``Me thinks he doth protest too much!`` He even used my name as the title of his post! Does anyone devote so much time and effort to something they think has no validity? Dr. Myers clearly fears what I had to say.



#40380: — 09/16  at  09:12 AM
Oh dear.
With this latest rant from Birdnow, he appears to have evolved (heehee) from a Gumby to the Black Knight:

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce



#40391: — 09/16  at  11:36 AM
I scanned the comments and didn't see this addressed. Forgive me if this is a repeat.

The problem you're looking at is the result of years of poor attention paid both to science education and to developing students' critical thinking skills in most primary and secondary (middle and high) schools. Here in Texas, science classes aren't required for all 4 years of high school. I'm fortunate that I live where school funding is ok, so the science curriculum for my children is ok - none of it is wonderful. I don't know if that's really different in other school districts in other states.

I know that teaching science requires more capital investment than teaching other subjects like languages or history and I don't know if that's the deciding factor for schools facing budget problems. Maybe students are pushed to take the "cheaper" courses so the money can be spent on other priorities (football in TX, maybe hockey in MN?).

I will confess, as a person without much formal education in Biology, Mr. Birdnow's arguments sound convincing. I guess I am fortunate that I am curious enough to research a little further and read alternate points of view. Some of Mr. Birdnow's other readers may not have the same amount of time (I'm unemployed, whoo-hoo!) or interest in clicking over to Pharyngula or TalkOrigins when he has made what appears to us, the great scientific unwashed, to be a good case.

Bottom line is Mr. Birdnow and people like him may be ignorant, but most of them aren't stupid. They are products of an education system that most values the students who sit down in rows alphabetically by last name and keep their mouths shut.

School board elections are often won by just a few votes. Keep informed and vote for people who are going to spend money on teaching critical thinking skills and on science education or else learn Chinese and Korean so you'll be able to keep up with the latest in scientific research.



#40405: — 09/16  at  01:59 PM
"ts, Chomsky did in fact say that."

Repeating this doesn't make it so. Chomsky was referring to how the Khmer Rouge programs may have been perceived, not what Chomsky thinks of them. And "perhaps, if a study were done" is not weasel words, except to a weasel like you.



Trackback: Continuing the Darwinian Jihad Tracked on: The Politburo Diktat (216.227.210.33) at 2005 09 16 18:53:37
Timothy Birdnow issued a remarkably ignorant Creationist re-hash. PZ Myers destroyed it, and today Birdnow dug himself in deeper. In sum, Birdnow does not know what DNA is. He doesn’t know what RNA is. He doesn’t know what a phylum is, n...



#40431: Alon Levy — 09/16  at  09:21 PM
I don't see that Chomsky said anything about what other people thought... but maybe I don't see the Chomsky-is-always-right reality you do.



#40435: — 09/16  at  11:09 PM
" I don't see that Chomsky said anything about what other people thought"

Then there's something seriously wrong with your sight or your brain or your honesty: "If a serious study is someday undertaken, it may well be discovered that the Khmer Rouge programs elicited a positive response [...]"

Elicit a positive response from whom? Necessarily other people; Chomsky certainly doesn't need a serious study to discover whether the Khmer Rouge programs elicited a positive response from himself, bozo.

"but maybe I don't see the Chomsky-is-always-right reality you do"

Taking lessons from Mr Birdnow, eh? When the facts are obviously against you, attack the messenger. The fact is that only someone as blindly hostile to Chomsky as Birdnow is to evolution could come up with your bizarre and fallacious interpretation of what he wrote.



#40438: Alon Levy — 09/17  at  04:03 AM
Is there any way to interpret "elicited a positive response" as meaning anything other than "elicited a positive response in Cambodia"? After all, the responses of Westerners to the Khmer Rouge were clear, so there was no need for a study.

On another note, in 1977 Chomsky also claimed that the Khmer Rouge's death toll was at most in the thousands, citing nonexistent studies purportedly published in The Economist.



#40442: — 09/17  at  12:32 PM
So Cambodians aren't people? I don't know about Chomsky citing nonexistent studies, but I know you're lying about what you've written right here, and I'm done with this exchange.



#40490: Alon Levy — 09/18  at  01:47 AM
Saying the Khmer Rouge elicited a positive response among Cambodians is almost exactly like saying it was good for them, and happens to be just as true.



's avatar #40496: Raven — 09/18  at  06:15 AM
Saying the Khmer Rouge elicited a positive response among Cambodians is almost exactly like saying it was good for them, and happens to be just as true.


Well, no--you oversimplify. The response changes dramatically over time, and so you have to be very clear and precise what and when you are talking about. In retrospect it is very easy for you to pronounce judgments with the luxury of hindsight that people trying to evaluate things at the time did not have.

The Khmer Rouge started out as a very fringe movement. But reaction to the US bombing of Cambodia and consequent killing of so many peasants galvanized support for the KR.

In 1970, when US-backed Lon Nol deposed King Sihanouk, he was so hated for that act of lèse-majesté that villagers immediately killed his brother and ate his liver. Lon Nol *never* had popular support, which created a vacuum just waiting to be filled by something.

Add to that the increasing number of civilian deaths by US "secret" bombings, and you can see why support for the KR grew exponentially over the years leading up to 1975.

President Nixon told Henry Kissinger on the telephone on December 9, 1970. “I want a plan where every goddamn thing that can fly goes into Cambodia and hits every target that is open … everything. I want them to use the big planes, the small planes, everything they can.” Kissinger ordered “a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. Anything that flies on anything that moves.”


In Kissinger's book Ending the Vietnam War: A History of America's Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam War, he quotes official sources as saying that 50,000 civilians were killed by the bombings. Other historians place the figure at closer to 100,000; no one can say for sure, except that it is somewhere in that range, to the best knowledge.

While the bombings were kept secret from the American public, the Khmer populace knew well about them, and about bombing raids like the one on Neak Luong, where more than 100 civilians were killed when a B-52 dropped its bombs on the village by mistake. That one was the exception, in that it actually made it into the Western press; other similar mistakes were more successfully buried to the West, but not to the Khmer themselves, who absorbed the growing civilian casualties with more and more rage.

The KR capitalized on the growing alienation among villagers from an already-despised usurper of a popular king, and by 1975, the deaths and the breakdown of the Phnom Penh infrastructure had led to overwhelming popular support of the KR by ordinary Cambodians. By the time Lon Nol's forces surrended Phnom Penh to the Khmer Rouge, the KR had overwhelming popular support.

Obviously, they then proceeded to throw that away with both hands with their subsequent actions. But your overarching generalizations about an extremely fluid situation where reliable information was very difficult to come by, your Monday-morning quarterbacking failure to appreciate the dynamics of changing support for the Khmer Rouge and the consequent difficulty of evaluating just which of many contradictory stories more closely approached the truth, shows a lack of appreciation for 1) just how complex the situation was, and 2) the difficulty of evaluating the reliability of conflicting information without the benefit of hindsight.

Remember, it wasn't until the 1979 overthrow of the Khmer Rouge by the Vietnamese that the killing stopped and the full extent became known. So to say that Chomsky should have known the full story with certainty before the rest of the world did, and that only his ideology kept him from telling the truth is attributing far too much power both to the man and to his ideology, not to mention to your own power to read people's minds and motivations across a span of almost 30 years.

I agree with you, he should have listened more to the refugees, and I acknowledge that that's my hindsight and my values talking, not my science. In your (dare I say? ideologically-motivated) categorical assertions against Chomsky, you fail to recognize the complexity of getting reliable information out of the rapidly-changing dynamics of that situation, and you take one static point and claim that represents the entirety of the dynamic situation. You really should read more history from more different sources before you just pop off with your black-and-white opinions about who the bad guys and the good guys are.



#40501: Alon Levy — 09/18  at  08:30 AM
You really should read more history from more different sources before you just pop off with your black-and-white opinions about who the bad guys and the good guys are.

If you imply that I think the USA is always the good side, you're in for a surprise. I don't know anyone except myself who admits to being anti-American. The reason I refrain from quoting more extensive anti-Chomsky resources is that they range from excessively pro-American (DeLong) to neo-conservative (Horowitz). I just think that any intelligent anti-American needs to distance him- or herself from Chomsky, just like every pro-American needs to distance him- or herself from neoconservatism.

Now, Chomsky coauthored After the Cataclysm, which vastly understates the extent of killing done by the Khmer Rouge, after Vietnam overthrew it. By your own admission, even if in 1977 he had any grounds to believe that the Khmer Rouge only killed a few thousand people, he didn't have any in 1979 after Pol Pot was overthrown.

Further, when Chomsky said in 1977 that the Khmer Rouge's death toll was at most in the thousands, he seriously misquoted his sources. One study he quoted was not a study but a letter to the editor; another did in fact exist and use the word "thousands" but didn't say "at most" or deny that it was possible that many more were killed. Such misquotations point out to deliberate distortion of facts, or at best to shoddy research.

This is just one part of a general problem with Chomsky's method of assessing global situations. I have no problem with ideologues. The problem begins when they get so attached to their ideology that they automatically presume that every regime that supports it is good and that every regime that opposes it is bad; even if later they revise their assessment to fit reality better, they still have a problem of giving the benefit of the doubt to such regimes. Chomsky gives the benefit of the doubt not only to the communists of Cambodia, but also to these of Vietnam, Italy, and Greece, and to Stalin's foreign policy in the early years of the Cold War.



's avatar #40509: Raven — 09/18  at  10:04 AM
If you imply that I think the USA is always the good side, you're in for a surprise. I don't know anyone except myself who admits to being anti-American.


No, I don't think you're reflexively pro-American, just that you have a blind spot for authoritarian abuses of power, like for how science can be used to promote and reinforce anti-progressive social values in your Lewontin essay. I think your own ideology filters out what you don't want to take into account, and makes your post-hoc pronouncements that much easier and more obvious.

The reason I refrain from quoting more extensive anti-Chomsky resources is that they range from excessively pro-American (DeLong) to neo-conservative (Horowitz).


And this correlation that you yourself observe suggests nothing more systematic to you? If not, why would you then refrain from quoting them?

I just think that any intelligent anti-American needs to distance him- or herself from Chomsky, just like every pro-American needs to distance him- or herself from neoconservatism.


Well, then, we'll just have to agree to differ. I am intelligent, I am not anti-American (being one), although I strongly disagree with our current government on just about everything, so I guess I don't fit any of your categories. And I don't see the same need to distance myself from Chomsky that you see for me, which is kind of funny, given your previous quoting of Coulter as a source on liberal Christians. Now she's batshit-crazy, unlike Chomsky, not to mention just plain vicious and un-Christian herself. Even Republicans distance themselves from her views.

I know you later said you disagree with 99.7% of everything she says, but still you respect her enough to quote her approvingly in debate. I think your blind spot to authoritarianism prevents you from realizing just how shocking her extremist views are to be as a source for "evidence".

And while you didn't feel the need to distance yourself publicly from Coulter's batshit-craziness until way after the fact, you still think I and others should distance ourselves from Chomsky's detailed scholarship, with whose conclusions you happen to disagree. You will understand why I don't share your conclusion, I trust.

If you really think that "giving the benefit of the doubt" to data before it's fully evaluated is a bad thing and "shoddy research" (as opposed to approaching it with your judgments already fully formed like Athena from Zeus' forehead, I suppose), we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this, as we do on many other things, and just leave it there.

You're also not addressing any of the points I raised about your static assessment vs. the dynamics of Khmer response to the Khmer Rouge and how anyone was supposed to objectively evaluate the limited and conflicting information, but that's actually ok--clearly, we're beating a dead horse here, and there's no further point to this. We're way off topic from the thread, you're not answering the points I raise, and we're boring Bored Huge Krill even more than usual. smile



#40522: Alon Levy — 09/18  at  12:11 PM
No, I don't think you're reflexively pro-American, just that you have a blind spot for authoritarian abuses of power, like for how science can be used to promote and reinforce anti-progressive social values in your Lewontin essay. I think your own ideology filters out what you don't want to take into account, and makes your post-hoc pronouncements that much easier and more obvious.

I'm not so sure... I do have a fairly hierarchist view of knowledge in the sense that I think there is a huge bureaucratic syste (science) that works, though. I don't have a blind eye to the most common forms of authoritarianism, that is fascism, communism, Islamism, evangelism, and so on, but it's possible I have one to oppression practiced by the academia. But then again, I would still argue that Lewontin's criticisms fall on their own lack of merit, though it doesn't really advance my case here.

And this correlation that you yourself observe suggests nothing more systematic to you? If not, why would you then refrain from quoting them?

It suggests to me that with most forms of extremism, those most given to attacking them are simply espousing the opposite extremes. Robert Conquest is possibly the single most important historian leading to the exposition of the fact that the Ukrainian famine was man-made. He also happens to be a fairly extreme libertarian with a tendency to apologize for fascism. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn possibly did more than anyone else to bring the gulags to the West's attention; he also happens to be a Russian nationalist with anti-Semitic sentiments.

On the other side of the divide, Chomsky himself did a lot to expose American atrocities in Vietnam even as he apologized for the crimes of the other side. Zinn, similarly, did a lot to expose the dark side of American history, and at the same time A People's History of the United States reeks of unreflective populism, exemplified by the statement that the bottom 99% of the American populace all have the same interests.

Although one can oppose communism and fascism at the same time, and in fact many Cold War liberals did, in practical terms anti-fascists are almost always communists and anti-communists are almost always fascists. More recently, the people who are most critical of the human rights situation in the Islamic world are typically doing this entirely to herald American invasions. Nazism is the only brand of totalitarianism that's universally hated and widely dissected by moderates, and indeed both fascists and communists claim that Nazism belongs in the opposite camp (in fact it's clearly fascist, but it doesn't matter here).

And I don't see the same need to distance myself from Chomsky that you see for me, which is kind of funny, given your previous quoting of Coulter as a source on liberal Christians. Now she's batshit-crazy, unlike Chomsky, not to mention just plain vicious and un-Christian herself.

I know all that, and in fact if I ever debate someone who likes her, I have an entire arsenal of quotes to bring up against her. It's just that since I'm a liberal, I know that my views are almost diametrically opposed to hers and that nobody will think otherwise, so if I quote her no one will use it as evidence that I'm a right-wing nut. However, even though there are many Chomsky quotes I like, I prefer not to use them because people will associate me with everything else he says, which in my opinion is nutty. A conservative or even a clearly pro-American liberal doesn't have this problem, but anyone who opposes current American foreign policy does.

I know you later said you disagree with 99.7% of everything she says, but still you respect her enough to quote her approvingly in debate. I think your blind spot to authoritarianism prevents you from realizing just how shocking her extremist views are to be as a source for "evidence".

I don't really respect her... I just thought that because the disagreement was so obvious, nobody would use her to tar me. Obviously, I was wrong. It's possible that if I quote Chomsky on US-backed terrorism in this milieu I won't be tarred with his more extreme pronouncements if only because of this thread or because people here like him. Still, I know for a fact that if I do it while debating a conservative, the conservative will shout at me for quoting him approvingly.

And while you didn't feel the need to distance yourself publicly from Coulter's batshit-craziness until way after the fact, you still think I and others should distance ourselves from Chomsky's detailed scholarship, with whose conclusions you happen to disagree. You will understand why I don't share your conclusion, I trust.

I'm not saying you should distance yourself from him; I'm saying people who are overtly anti-American should. If you're pro-American and merely opposed to current American foreign policy, you don't need to distance yourself from him any more than I need to distance myself from Jerry Falwell. I was bringing the distancing argument up to partly explain why I attack Chomsky even though I don't like the USA much more than he does (another reason is that I got acquainted with his writing when I still thought the USA made a mistake when it didn't nuke Afghanistan, so even as I turned anti-American I had him in mind as an example of what I shouldn't turn into).

If you really think that "giving the benefit of the doubt" to data before it's fully evaluated is a bad thing and "shoddy research" (as opposed to approaching it with your judgments already fully formed like Athena from Zeus' forehead, I suppose), we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this, as we do on many other things, and just leave it there.

It's not exactly that. First, in 1979 there already was clear evidence that the Khmer Rouge had killed hundreds of thousands if not millions. Second, Chomsky still misquoted sources, which is a bad thing to do regardless of the situation. Third, Chomsky seems to give the benefit of the doubt only to left-wing totalitarian regimes; he doesn't offer similar apologies for fascists.



#40528: coturnix — 09/18  at  01:11 PM
I am not a Chomsky expert, but what little I have read by him I liked very much. His book about the war on Kosovo ("The New Military Humanism" is possibly the best explanation for what happened there (and I should know something about it - I'm from there), as well as the most coherent eplanation for Iraq - what gradual changes in the global political environment made it possible for the neocons to actually go ahead and do it.



#40548: — 09/18  at  06:57 PM
What I really enjoy is Mr. Birdnow's poetry. You just can't make a negative comment about his poetry and make it stick ... he deletes them every few hours.



#40549: — 09/18  at  07:04 PM
"Saying the Khmer Rouge elicited a positive response among Cambodians is almost exactly like saying it was good for them, and happens to be just as true."

Yet another thing in black and white that you are lying about. By your loonytoon logic, Bush, Mao Zedong, Hitler, and Stalin elicited no positive response among their population.

"Chomsky seems to give the benefit of the doubt only to
left-wing totalitarian regimes; he doesn't offer similar apologies for
fascists."

Yet another lie. Chomsky has noted repeatedly that he doesn't spend a lot of time pointing out what everyone else points out and accepts. And he doesn't offer any apologies for totalitarian regimes of any stripe. As for Chomsky misquoting sources, if you say so then it probably isn't true.



#40551: — 09/18  at  07:09 PM
"in practical terms anti-fascists are almost always communists and anti-communists are almost always fascists"

This has got to be Mr. Levy's looniest claim of of all.



#40681: — 09/19  at  07:14 PM
It's not exactly that. First, in 1979 there already was clear evidence that the Khmer Rouge had killed hundreds of thousands if not millions. Second, Chomsky still misquoted sources, which is a bad thing to do regardless of the situation. Third, Chomsky seems to give the benefit of the doubt only to left-wing totalitarian regimes; he doesn't offer similar apologies for fascists.


My understanding is, of course, Chomsky said much of what you're objecting to in 1977 and 1978. "Reliable" American sources, being the CIA at the time, put a far lower death toll than the State Department came up with much later.

In the day, the CIA said the Khmer Rouge executed 50,000 to 100,000 people. And the CIA, frankly, wasn't even considered credible by much of the left. And, frankly, by many on the "right," such as myself.

Also, except for some dubious sensationalists, at that point, nobody from the West gave a darn if any of them starved to death. And, frankly, I don't remember any serious media coverage of what happened in Cambodia until the 1980's at the earliest. Let's be clear - the west didn't care.

Now, if something was written on imperfect information, and actually used a correct qualifier to point out that MERE ASSERTION does not qualify as fact, and that there MAY BE results DIFFERENT than the MERE ASSERTION and WE SHOULD FIND OUT doesn't make Chomsky a "bad guy." However your bias and hatred of him makes you look quite foolish.

It was a reasonable idea to posit. The facts, eventually, made Chomsky look like an appologist and out-of-touch. But those facts came later. And what was reported earlier was suspect after the media whitewash and lies of early Vietnam, and little credible reporting, done since, blaming Chomsky is, well, silly.



#40697: Alon Levy — 09/19  at  11:38 PM
My understanding is, of course, Chomsky said much of what you're objecting to in 1977 and 1978. "Reliable" American sources, being the CIA at the time, put a far lower death toll than the State Department came up with much later.

He said much of it in 1977 and 1978, but he still maintained the Khmer Rouge wasn't all that bad in 1979. Then he put the death toll at 25,000 (in the same book he also apologized for Vietnamese communism, but that's beside my point). Further, you fail to address the point that to arrive at his figures, he had to quote a book whose primary source was the Khmer Rouge's statements, misquote studies, and use weasel words such as "elicited a positive response" (everything elicits a positive response among some people; what's his point?).



#40754: — 09/20  at  02:03 PM
This is the old ``I know more than you and I say so`` canard.

Ah, yes, that canard. I hate that one.



#40756: — 09/20  at  02:26 PM
Dembski is the Trofim Lysenko of Information Theory. He has unsupported hypothesis that come from how he views the world. He is promoted by others because he motivates the common people. His work does little other than waste the efforts of other humans and indirectly kills people.

Birdnow would be funny if it weren't so sad.

As to a positive liberalism, I'd like to push "Liberation Atheology". Determinism sets you free from the past.



Trackback: PZ Eviscerates a Moron Tracked on: Dispatches from the Culture Wars (66.235.203.191) at 2005 09 24 10:29:32
If PZ Myers gave out a version of the Robert O'Brien Trophy, he would no doubt award it to Timothy Birdnow, the author of a delightfully idiotic anti-evolution screed in, of all places, a webmag called The American Thinker. PZ...



Page 5 of 5 pages « First  <  3 4 5

Next entry: Daily Show — Evolution Schmevolution 3

Previous entry: The Powertools Blog is picking on me!

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college