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Wednesday, September 14, 2005

Timothy Birdnow

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

Laugh, cry, curl up into a fetal ball and close my eyes…I'm not sure what I want to do. There is a site called The American Thinker which I read for the first time today, and all I can say is that if this is what they call American thinking, we have grounds for a class action suit for libel on behalf of every citizen in the US.

In particular, they've published an article, The case against Darwin, written by a property manager in St. Louis, Timothy Birdnow. It's clear that he's ideologically compatible with far right wing pseudoscience, but reading his essay was a hilarious exercise, rather like reading children's funny exam answers. The science is a mangled mish-mash, almost entirely wrong, delivered with an astoundingly confident tone that disregards its own obvious contradictions.

For instance, Birdnow is confident that DNA could never have come into existence.

What, you may ask, is the connection between Einstein`s proof of atoms [his explanation of Brownian motion] and Darwinism? Darwinism argues that all life evolved from a less complex state. Following the chain of life backwards, one eventually comes to the most basic unit of life-Deoxyribonucleaic Acid (the DNA molecule). The DNA molecule is composed of the even simpler RNA molecule, and is the fundamental building block of life. It is the largest, most complex molecule in nature. According to Einstein`s theory, the original DNA (and RNA) Molecules should not have formed and survived since there are being constantly buffetted by energized atoms. The establishment of life required energy, and that energy meant that the nascent DNA was exposed to more energetic particles which should, logically, have prevented the formation of such a large and complex molecule. That this molecule not only formed but spread suggests different mechanism at work then those proposed by the Darwinists.

  • DNA is not made of RNA. They are two molecules with similar structures, but different sugar backbones and a small difference in the bases.
  • The phrase "According to Einstein's theory" is dishonest: nothing Einstein ever said suggested that DNA could not form.
  • Think about what this guy is saying. Because molecules are in constant motion, DNA could not have formed. Yet this is not a condition that was only true at the beginning of life, but is also the case now. How does he imagine DNA is synthesized now?

Many defenders of evolution try to argue that entropy only applies to a closed system, and that the Earth is not a closed system. This is facetious; entropy increases when systems are mixed, and the first life forms could not have survived except under very particular conditions. They had to have a closed system, or at least a very sheltered system, initially to survive! Any way you look at it, a self-replicating entity had to gain in complexity at the molecular level despite increasing entropic pressures. There has to be a guiding principle involved. You just can`t make order out of chaos! Systems decay.

  • "facetious: treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant." Perhaps he meant "fallacious"? Either way, he's wrong.
  • Aww, just read the FAQ. This is just the old "second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution" canard; it's not true.
  • I don't think he understands what a "closed system" is. In a closed system, entropy will increase—without the input of energy, living systems die.
  • If systems decay as an invariable and unbreakable rule, where did Mr Birdnow come from?

In fact, genes and chromosomes decay on a regular basis. One of the largest causes of mental retardation is called fragile X syndrome, and it is the result of chromosomal decay where one of the legs of the X has crumbled away. The Chromosome is no longer an X but isn`t a Y either, and this results in numerous problems. Mutations of genetic material happens regularly, and is rarely of any benefit to the unlucky inheritor. A benevolent mutation generally requires an increase in complexity, not a disintigration of the chromosome or gene. Disintigration generally means decay. Decay makes you sick, or dead; it does not make you grow. Evolution claims you can decay your way up!

  • I've written a bit about fragile X syndrome. Birdnow doesn't have anything right here.
  • It does not cause "crumbling" of the X, nor does it mean the X is something other than an X chromosome. Fragile X is caused by trinucleotide repeat expansion; the excessive repeats stimulate excessive methylation, which inactivates a nearby gene that is important in transducing a synaptic response into a change in protein synthesis.
  • Mutations are rarely harmful.
  • Mutations can increase complexity.

Another paradox in Darwin`s theory is the lowly virus. A virus is basically a free floating strand of DNA (or RNA for the most ancient varieties like the Filoviruses which cause Ebola) which invades a cell and takes over the cell`s control functions. The virus suddenly comes to life, reproducing at a prodigious rate. After exhausting the cell, the virus returns to it`s quiet slumber.

Now, the virus must predate the cellular organisms, and yet there is no way a virus can reproduce without a host. We have no examples of self-replicating viruses, viruses which can exist on their own. What we see is reverse evolution; the virus is evolved to feed on the more complex organism.

It is possible that early viruses were able to exist without a host, and that the change in the Earth`s atmosphere killed them. Perhaps none of them could tolerate oxygen. One would still expect to find remnants of these ancient viral life forms in sheltered places. We don`t, and regular viruses require a host. The problem is that there doesn`t appear to be any way for these organisms to have flourished.

  • Viruses do not "come to life". They consist of short gene sequences that are translated by the cell, and carry out functions that use cellular machinery to reproduce themselves.
  • Viruses almost certainly do not predate cellular organisms. They are parasitic sequences that evolved to take advantage of cells. (Although there most probably were prebiotic equivalents of viruses that parasitized early replicators, I suspect.)
  • The existence of viruses that live independently of any host is a contradiction in terms.
  • Mr Birdnow should read a simple summary of virus evolution, because he has got everything wrong. Again.

Next we come to the problems with the fossil record. Everyone has heard of the missing link; the transition creature between Man and the Apes. We`ve never really found him-in fact, we`ve never really found any link between one species and another. Scientists have found species with similarities, but the transitions are simply not there. It is inherent in Darwinism that species make a smooth, seamless transition from one form to another. The reality is that we see no such transitions in the fossil record, and evolutionists struggle to hide or explain away this embarrasing fact.

Furthermore, we don`t even see crossovers between the 5 Phylla (classes of animals) anywhere, at any time. Where are the giant mammaried mosquitos? Where are the snakes which deliver live young? I haven`t seen too many feathered fish around lately! The species remain distinct, and they shouldn`t if Darwin is correct. Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called ``Great Dying``, 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5. If Darwin`s concept of Natural Selection is correct we should have seen numerous crossovers as species from all branches competed to fill in the newly vacated gaps in the ecology. That we can find no evidence of any crossover is damning of Darwin`s theory.

  • There are approximately 30 animal phyla (and it's spelled with one "l").
  • Many snakes, including the common garter snake, are live-bearers.
  • "Crossovers"? Mammaried mosquitos? The absence of chimeras is a piece of evidence for evolution. We do not expect mosquitos and dairy cows to ever hybridize.
  • There were no mammals or birds before the Permian extinction, nor were there any for about 100 million years after.

Another point to consider is the matter of the size of animal life on Earth. During the Jurassic, Dinosaurs grew to enormous sizes, fueled by plentiful food and a high atmospheric oxygen content. Yet we see mammals grow large during the Pleistocene, with Mastadons, giant beavers, Saber-Toothed Tigers all being larger than creatures today. This was an era of scarcity and lower oxygen, yet we witness the same response to the environment. Why? If Natural Selection is correct, the most successful creatures during the Ice Age would be the smaller ones. We see the same biological response to two radically different conditions.

  • The idea that animals grew larger because of higher oxygen content is simplistic and wrong. It sounds like someone's been reading the creationist, Carl Baugh.
  • The most successful creatures during the Jurassic, the Ice Ages, and modern times were and are the smallest ones: the bacteria.
  • Mastodons are not the same as diplodocids. Obviously, we did not witness the same responses in the Mesozoic and the Cenozoic.

Speaking of Dinosaurs, why are they all gone? Dinosaurs came in all sizes, some quite small and nimble. Birds are the last remnants of the beasts which once ruled the Earth. Why? Granted, the large ones were unfit to survive, but the small ones should have been able to adapt without having to develop flight. We should still see some of the smaller ones like Procompsognathus. They were every bit as nimble, as fit, to survive as their mammalian rivals. Yet they are gone. Why did they all turn into birds? Evolutionary theory suggests that the surviving dinosaurs should have scattered in all directions genetically after their extinction. They didn`t; they went in only one direction, while mammals evolved to fill their former niches.

  • The best current explanation for the absence of the dinosaurs is a catastrophic extinction event triggered by a massive meteor impact. The effects of the impact had long term ecological effects that destroyed most species on the planet.
  • All of the dinosaurs except one lineage, a group that led to the birds and that evolved tens of millions of years before the end of the Cretaceous, were killed. They did not survive. There were no scattered bands of survivors that all independently evolved into birds.
  • The 'dinosaurs' that survived the extinction were already birds.

Any way you look at the issue, Darwinism is on the ropes. The supporters of Darwin have resorted to frauds in the past to prove their theory-Piltdown Man was a combination of human and ape remains. Remember the famous Moth hoax where evolutionists claimed they had found moths in London which had changed from white to black because industrial soot had made being black safer? Turns out they faked their evidence. Now the evolutionists are trying to silence any competing theories through scholastic bans and mockery. They seem desperate.

I wonder why?

  • Piltdown was a fraud that was exposed by scientists. It was not a significant part of the evidence for human evolution, however, and Mr Birdnow must ignore all the genuine evidence to make his point.
  • Peppered moths weren't faked. The story still stands as a valid, but complex, example of evolution.

Evolutionists aren't desperate—we're exasperated. We have to deal with appalling levels of ignorance like Mr Birdnow's; I think it's only appropriate that we respond with mockery. I've tried to point out some of the more glaring errors of fact in his essay (there's much more—I've been slightly selective), and it should be clear that his work is embarrassingly uninformed, revealing a complete lack of any competency in biology, of a level comparable to what I might expect from a fifth grader…although no fifth grader I've ever met has the arrogance to think he is an authority in science. What he has written is garbage, and it's been published as if it were a serious piece of scholarship by a right-wing online rag, and I've had to waste 45 minutes picking apart a fraction of the egregious errors present in it.

The only appropriate response here is to point out that Birdnow is an idiot. He's a gumby. He's a particularly outrageous example of the creationist morons who want to dictate our schools' curricula from a position of utter ineptitude.

We "evolutionists" are not interested in "scholastic bans" of ideas. I do think it entirely fair that we have scholastic standards that reject rank stupidity of the kind Mr Birdnow offers.


I'm a right wicked bastard. Birdnow discussed revisiting this subject in another article, so I hit him with a challenge. Creationists typically dance from error to error, keeping the balls juggling so fast that you can't keep up, and definitely can never pin them down. So I picked one point in his article and told him to explain it. Here's my challenge:

By the way, if you do revisit this subject, please address this one point from your article.

Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called "Great Dying", 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5.

You should be aware that in those 3 sentences, you made 4 immense errors.

  1. There are many more than 5 phyla; about 30.
  2. Mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, and insects are not separate phyla. The first four all belong to one phylum (Chordata) and the last belongs to another (Arthropoda).
  3. There were no mammals or birds in the Permian.
  4. There were no mammals or birds in the Triassic.

In other words, your entire point was wrong in multiple ways. Those are simple errors of fact that show you have no knowledge at all of the subject about which you were babbling.

Consider this a challenge. If you can't address those gross errors when you revisit the subject, I'm going to point out the fact with great amusement.

I wonder what will happen? Dodge, weasel, stonewall, or do some kind of spastic flibbertigibbet dance?


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Comments:
#40183: — 09/15  at  08:51 AM
Cheap shot time: from Birdnow's own blog:


In my recent article on Darwin I mentioned Fragile X, which results from the disintegration of the end of one arm of the X chromosome . Fragile X is the leading inherited cause of mental retardation, and a great scourge, since it usually ends a family line. Believe me, I know.



#40184: — 09/15  at  08:55 AM
4. There were no mammals or birds in the Triassic.

You sure PZ? I'm pretty sure there were 'true' mammals by the late Triassic.



#40185: Steve Reuland — 09/15  at  09:01 AM
Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called "Great Dying", 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5.


Aside from the gross factual errors, there's a rather serious error in reasoning here as well. He's implying that for some reason, during a mass extinction, we should expect one or more phyla to get completely wiped out and/or one or more to spontaneously appear out of nowhere after the extinction is over with. That's just silly. If there really were only 5 phyla, each one with many thousands of species, I'd expect at least a few representatives from each one to survive. And I certainly wouldn't expect something worth calling a new phylum to evolve out of nowhere during the mass extinction (ignoring for now the fact that "phyla" are artificial categories created by us for communication purposes.)



#40187: Alon Levy — 09/15  at  09:07 AM
Chris, I'm not saying Chomsky really thinks that. But this is a good example of shoddy research motivated by ideology; Chomsky lambasts things like this when done by overly pro-American media. Indeed, Manufacturing Consent identifies sourcing as one of the primary causes of media bias, and if I remember correctly attacks the media for, among other things, not interviewing ordinary locals when doing a story on a conflict in a country.



#40191: — 09/15  at  10:08 AM
Physics? Did god create physics?

From Fafblog:


Yknow we been hearin a lot lately about how Intelligent Design's not real science. Well that's just crazy talk! Ever since we got scientific evidence of the existence of God everybody down at the Faflab has been buildin off this cuttin edge field to come up with latest scientological developments.

-Physics-
By observing the mating of Galapagos finches with high-precision godometers, Designmatologists have discovered the existence of the Godtrino - the subatomic particle that God is made of! Theoretical Godmologists have believed that evolution was caused by the presence of Godtrinos for years but this is our first concrete proof. And think of the practical applications once we manage to harness the power of mass Godtrino production! Turnin water into wine, smiting, more smiting, Gomorrorah burning, Jesus resuscitation. The possibilities are endless!

-Biology-
Intelligent Design has lead to the discovery of several exciting new species like gene fairies, DNA demons, and evolution angels! Intelligent Designologicologists carefully tag and release these specimens to study their migratory patterns as they travel from earth to heaven to alter our genetic code according to God's precise instructions.

We also keep em in our brand new family adventure park, Wild Angel Jungle Safari! Feed the cherubim in our heavenly petting zoo, watch the four o' clock angel-an-walrus watershow spectacular, an buy some seraphim jerky at the gift shop! In conjunction with Faflabs, Gibco is proud to introduce the Angel Gun. What better way to show your appreciation of these beautiful an fascinatin creatures than by shootin a cherub an stickin it in a pickle jar on your coffee table!

-Space-
Now we know God exists, it's time for deep space God exploration! Intelligent Designostronomers have located him in orbit around the moon and believe the first Godstonauts could make a manned God landing as early as 2012. God's surface is rich in deposits of wine and communion wafers which could support the beginnings of a God colony, where advanced mining techniques could extract the omnipotence America could use to supply its energy needs for the next coupla years! The sky's the limit! Til we hit God. Then God's the limit.



#40197: — 09/15  at  10:49 AM
"Flibertigibbet" was good enough for Rodgers and Hammerstien (sp?) in "Sound of Music." It is in the song "What do you do about someone like Maria?"

Trivia: The director of the movie, Robert Wise, just passed away.

Now back to the fisking.



's avatar #40198: Raven — 09/15  at  10:50 AM
Chris: Alon, finding strong condemnations by Chomsky of the activities of the Khmer Rouge is a trivial exercise. He was at first skeptical of the reports of atrocities, and for good reason: they were reported in a wholly unobjective press.

Alon: Chris, I'm not saying Chomsky really thinks that. But this is a good example of shoddy research motivated by ideology; Chomsky lambasts things like this when done by overly pro-American media.


Alon, I agree that it was a wrong thing to overlook the refugee reports at first, but I disagree with you that it was shoddy research, and only partially agree with you that it was motivated by ideology.

It was a good research principle taken to an extreme degree. Chomsky was trying to eliminate sources of bias--as Chris points out, the media was wholly unobjective: Bias source 1. Also, refugees are a self-selected population, and thus the external validity of the sample for the general population is suspect: normally Bias Source 2. Think about Cuban politics in the US if you want to see an extreme example of that ideological skew among a self-selected population, and you will see that a random sample of local people in their normal environment (what Chomsky is referring to) is not the same as a self-selected population of refugees in a different environment explicitly because they disagreed with the government that the researcher is seeking information on. The first sample compensates for bias; the second amplifies it.

So I disagree with you that it was shoddy research. Under normal circumstances, it would have been a good and effective technique to reduce sample bias. But these were not normal circumstances, and as sympathetic to Chomsky as I am, I nevertheless disagree with him on this issue--for two reasons--one structural, and one my own personal ethical one.

The latter first, because it's less important in the overall scheme of things, plus it's less philosophically defensible if Mr. Spock over there on the Joe Carter thread gets wind that I am being something less than perfectly formally logically consistent smile.

I think that it is better to validate people's experiences and incorporate them into the big picture at the cost of less certainty about the conclusions drawn than it is to have more certainty about the conclusions at the cost of excluding people's experiences because of the possibility of introducing bias. In the early 80's, I wrote a review of one of Michael Vickery's books, and criticized him on the very point of ignoring refugees' experiences in his information-gathering. I freely admit this opens a difficult can of epistemological worms, but that's my ethical value, for what it's worth (hint: that and $3 will get you a latte).

The more important, big picture, structural information, is that the Khmer Rouge were such a big and horrible disaster for Cambodia that it leveled the playing field as far as who became a refugee, and thus, the population of refugees was much more representative than would have been expected. Everyone fleeing because they are in danger of being killed for no good reason is a much more representative sample than well-educated professionals voting with their feet because their opportunities are limited by a government they disagree with. You can see this demographic change in the waves of Vietnamese refugees who came here as well--the French-speaking professional class were overrepresented (only numerically speaking, not in terms of who's entitled to a chance at a new life) in the first group of refugees, while the later groups were much more representative of the entire population.

Here's what a seismic shift the Khmer Rouge represented in regard to more usual refugee dynamics: the Chinese in Cambodia had traditionally been a merchant class and had money and political power, so the Khmer Rouge, once in pwer, went after them as an obstacle. Normally, killing hundreds of thousands of Chinese would count as genocide. But under international law, the KR did not commit genocide against the Chinese--because they killed so many other non-Chinese (for different reasons than they killed the Chinese for), there is technically not the proportional difference in the killing rate that would qualify as genocide.

So that is one measure of the abnormality of the situation: usually, in this case, the Chinese with money and power and a reason to hate the government would have been overrepresented among the refugees, and that selection bias would have skewed the information gotten from them. In this case, however, the efficiency of the KR's depravity hit all groups so hard that it had the effect of making everyone who possibly could, get away. In other words, it leveled out the normally expected selection bias.

So yes, it was a good research principle (avoid sources of bias) that Chomsky followed. However, it turned out to be wrong anyway, in light of later knowledge. Did his and Vickery's and others' ideologies filter that fact out longer than it would have if he held the same relative value of confidence interval vs. inclusiveness that I do (and am *not* asserting as a universal principle)? Perhaps, but it is impossible to ever know.



's avatar #40200: Raven — 09/15  at  10:51 AM
Now back to the fisking.


Too bad that's not as dirty as it sounds. smile



#40202: — 09/15  at  10:59 AM
for me, this one has to be the best coffee on monitor paragraph:

The earliest life developed using chemosynthesis (that is, derived it`s energy from chemicals) and this meant it must have developed around volcanoes or sea vents. Such an unlikely place would be a closed system, and subject to entropic decay.


I don't think I can add anything to this...



#40207: Alon Levy — 09/15  at  11:17 AM
I would agree with your analysis but for three problems, Raven:

1. There's a difference between accepting refugees' word as gospel and including them in one's assessment of the situation. For instance, in an analysis of the situation in Cuba in the 1960s, using refugees as one source of information among many is the prudent thing to do.

2. The sources saying that there was genocide included leftists. The Nation, after all, wrote about the Cambodian mass murder in 1977, and while it's to the right of Zmag, it's not exactly a branch of the CIA.

3. Chomsky said what he said in 1979, four years after the Khmer Rouge had started systematically destroying Cambodia. I presume enough time had passed by then for hard evidence to be fairly easily available.



#40208: HP — 09/15  at  11:18 AM
Where are the giant mammaried mosquitos?

"...and so, having been ignominiously deprived of my position as a smokejumper for the CIA, I found myself alone, broke, and sans papiers on the outskirts of Tegucigalpa. Thinking I might charm the natives with some simple sleight-of-hand magic tricks and thereby earn my food and drink, I walked into a small, filthy cantina.

"A large sweaty man in what was once a white linen suit was sitting in the back. He noticed me. 'Gringo?,' he asked.

"'Um ... ,' I replied, uncertain what would happen next.

"His face erupted in a broad grin. 'Relax! Sit down. Maria! Dos cervesas! The show, Señor, she is about to begin....'

"The large Honduran gestured toward a small stage along the opposite wall. As the curtain opened I saw what I first took to be three women performing a fan dance. Instead, I was to witness a sight that would give me nightmares to this day...."



's avatar #40218: Raven — 09/15  at  12:05 PM
Alon, about point 1, you say "prudent"; I say "right", but the point is that getting from those after-the-fact values judgments of ours to externally-valid conclusions before- and during-the-fact is a non-trivial process. Incorporating those sources of information complicates the problem, and makes it more costly. Eliminating sources of bias is considered good research practice. Like I said, I think he took it too far in this case. But it was not "shoddy" in principle, and I don't see how you think he could have known that beforehand. If you're going to depart from good research practice, you need a very good justification, and that's always easier afterwards than during.

About 2 and 3, I agree that the delay was disturbing. Yet that always seems to be the case--reports of the Nazi death camps were coming out in 1942 and 1943, yet in 1944, after the Soviet capture of Maidanek, the BBC refused to report on it, because it thought the descriptions were Soviet propaganda. Of course, the BBC should have known about it--and yet, they didn't.

I'm not saying that to excuse Chomsky, just that such--to me, unbelievably-long--delay is not unheard of in history, and cannot automatically be written off to ideology and shoddy research. On what happened, we agree--after the fact, we know that he should have listened to the refugees sooner. On why he didn't, I can't share your certainty as to his motivations--I can't say it wasn't just an honest mistake grounded in good research principle, and based on the wrong assumption that this was a normal refugee situation. And it's not like he's a modern-day advocate of the Khmer Rouge--we're arguing about what may or may not have taken place in 1979, and I just don't think you can be so certain about why.



's avatar #40222: Raven — 09/15  at  12:24 PM
Ah, Alon, I have thought of a practical example behind the principle I stated:

You understand the principles behind RCTs (randomized controlled trials), right? Control groups, randomization, intent-to-treat, power and confidence interval, right?

Normally, you run an experiment through to the end, and you do not deviate from the original methodology--it is considered bad practice to modify or refine your procedure based on your preliminary results within the same study.

However, when the results are so dramatically strikingly one-sided--either good (AZT in HIV+ pregnant women) or bad (hormone replacement therapy [HRT] in menopausal women), sometime the ethics of the situation require you to change methodological horses in midstream, ignoring the implications to the scientific method.

The results of AZT were so strong in preventing transmission to the infant that denying that benefit to the placebo group for the duration of the experiment could no longer be justified. Similarly, the treatment group in HRT showed such a higher rate of problems that it was considered wrong to subject them to that risk for the remainder of the experiment.

In both cases, was it right to change the methodology in the middle? Yes, but only given the knowledge we got over the run of the experiment.

That kind of ending the experiment is very different from going into the experiment with no intention of finishing. You see how post facto knowledge can radically (180-degrees in these cases) change the situation?

It is very easy for us now to say Chomsky should have listened to the refugees; it is much harder to know the before-the-fact information that went into the decisions made, and how much or how little ideology colored them.



#40224: Alon Levy — 09/15  at  12:27 PM
The problem with eliminating bias is that it's too easy to overcompensate, which is what I think Chomsky did. By being overcautious about not having an anti-communist bias, he succumbed to a pro-communist bias by using as his main source a book whose main source was the Khmer Rouge's own statements. Some American media outlets are doing the same thing now - the New York Times, for example, is often oversupportive of Bush in an attempt to avoid a liberal bias.

As for the delay, I don't excuse what the BBC did in World War Two about the Holocaust. Both Britain and the United States looked for excuses not to bomb the railroads to Auschwitz despite immense pressure from Jewish groups, even after everybody knew that extermination of gargantuan proportions was going on there. After all, at the time the USA and Britain also refused to acknowledge any of Stalin's atrocities - Orwell had serious trouble publishing Animal Farm in 1945 - so "Soviet propaganda" was not an excuse anyone in power would believe in.

Incidentally, Brad DeLong has a few more instances of similar ideologically slanted research by Chomsky (e.g. ramming the USA for propping up Saddam even though at the time almost every first- and second-world country viewed him as an improvement over Iran and aided him in some way) - he's the first Google result on Chomsky Khmer Rouge. I just prefer not use him as a source here because his post about Chomsky contains some apologetics for fascism, such as approving of the CIA's rigging elections in Italy and Greece.



#40226: Alon Levy — 09/15  at  12:34 PM
About changing the methodology in the middle of the experiment, I completely agree. However, I don't see how it helps Chomsky's case here; my main problem with his source for his statements about the Khmer Rouge is not just that it failed to interview refugees, but in general that its primary source of information was the Khmer Rouge's statements. And given that it was clear that there were differing accounts about what happened, the right thing to do was clearly to consider multiple sources.



#40230: Redshift — 09/15  at  12:44 PM
I think my favorite bit is where he argues that brownian motion proves that DNA could not have formed, by an argument that proves that no molecules could ever form! (Perhaps he thinks that each individual DNA molecule was created directly by God the Designer?



#40267: — 09/15  at  03:28 PM
how did this thread get hijacked by a discussion about Chomsky and the Khmer Rouge...?



#40291: — 09/15  at  07:02 PM
Is The American Thinker related to American Thinker, the barely Al-standard conservative who posts at Pandagon? If so, I might have to cross post this.



#40308: — 09/15  at  08:14 PM
A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b-bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, well the bird is the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody knows that the bird is the word!
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a...

A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a don't you know about the bird?
Well, everybody's talking about the bird!
A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well-a bird...

Sorry



#40335: — 09/16  at  12:06 AM
"saying the Khmer Rouge had an overall positive effect on Cambodia counts as communist apologetics"

Perhaps so, but it's irrelevant because Chomsky never said that or anything like it. You seem to have focused on the nouns in his statement and ignored all the other words.



#40336: — 09/16  at  12:10 AM
"I'm not saying Chomsky really thinks that"

No, you said he said it -- but anyone capable of understanding English can see that he didn't.



#40341: Alon Levy — 09/16  at  01:19 AM
ts, Chomsky did in fact say that. The word "may" is a weasel word, which Republicans like to use in order to avoid actually saying evolution didn't happen or global warming is a myth. Besides which, by 1979 it was obvious that every serious study about the Khmer Rouge would find its effect on Cambodia was crippling.



#40345: — 09/16  at  02:31 AM
Birdnow has "responded" in the usual creationist (although he disavows this label) style.

Darwinists launch Jihad against Birdblog

My favourite line:

Obviously, Dr. Myers is my superior in knowledge of biology and I`m not going to get sucked into an argument over biological minutia.


Translation: "Sure, my entire case was based on factual claims which Dr Myers has shown to be false, but I'm still right anyway"

Of course, Mr Birdnow does not address PZ Myers' challenge...



#40349: — 09/16  at  03:53 AM
My favourite line:

This is the old ``I know more than you and I say so`` canard.


But it's run a close second by his answer to PZ's point,

"Think about what this guy is saying. Because molecules are in constant motion, DNA could not have formed. Yet this is not a condition that was only true at the beginning of life, but is also the case now. How does he imagine DNA is synthesized now?"

We have existing DNA molecules which act as templates.


And I just love his logic here:

Does anyone devote so much time and effort to something they think has no validity? Dr. Myers clearly fears what I had to say.


Yep; why on earth would you bother disagreeing with someone if you didn't think they were right?



Trackback: The Case Against ‘The Case Against Darwin’ Tracked on: The Politburo Diktat (216.227.210.33) at 2005 09 15 14:33:01
Timothy Birdnow at The American Thinker re-cycles the usual Creationist canards. PZ Myers takes him apart. Anyone who wants can read either or both. But PZ Myers issues a specific challenge to Birdnow,which I will reprint here, and subscribe to. Bi...



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