Pharyngula

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Friday, July 09, 2004

Tips for arguing with creationists

I don't encourage debates with creationists; it's a waste of time, gives them far more respect than they deserve, and leaves you feeling slimy for sharing a podium with the guy. A couple of years ago, though, I tussled with a creationist in a public forum, and I think there is a way to 'win' such a confrontation and still have some self-respect. This wasn't a full-blown debate: it was a presentation by a local creationist, Roger Melquist, in which he announced that he would be open to fielding questions afterwards. I showed up as an audience member, and my goal was simply to introduce at least a few facts into the event. Low expectations are good in this sort of thing. You aren't going to win converts, at best you're going to raise a few doubts and maybe make a few people think.

These are some revised strategy notes I scribbled up after my encounter with Melquist in Spring, 2001.

  • Pack the audience. Creationists, and Melquist was no exception, usually lecture to church groups; there's no way a lone evolutionist can be a good guy in such a situation. No matter what, you're going to come across as an isolated sniper. Don't stand for it—spread the word to your peers, too. Match their flyers in local churches with similar announcements at your local university. In this case, our local biology club got wind of this talk, and they passed the word on to a philosophy of science class. There were a number of people in the audience who were capable of asking intelligent questions of the speaker, so it was more than an echo chamber for the creationists.
    Also, after I'd raised my hand a few times and asked pointed questions, Melquist started avoiding me. It was satisfying to see him pass over me to let another fellow a few rows back ask a question...and he was one of our smart young philosophy students.
  • Prepare ahead of time. I'd seen some of the points this fellow was going to raise in a flyer that he distributed before hand, and he was clearly a young-earth creationist of the Walt Brown/Kent Hovind school (a sitting duck, in other words). Trust me, these guys are so predictable...a quick browse through the web sites of creationists and various online debates allowed me to put together a list of things he was likely to say, and he hit every one of 'em. A Behe- or Johnson-style speaker is a much harder target, but even there, you can practically find word-for-word outlines and refutations of what they are going to say ahead of time.
    You don't have to feel like you've got to slam him on every mistake; there will be lots, so pick and choose.
  • Don't get bogged down in detail. Nobody at these things wants to hear a long lecture on evolutionary biology. Make your point in a few sentences or two, and move on. Especially since you're a member of the audience, you don't have the privilege of meandering on for 5 minutes. What helps here is a little preparation, too.
    For instance, I knew he was going to raise the tired old canard that there are no transitional fossils—they always do. I prepared a few pictures on transparencies ahead of time, and when he made his predictable claim, I was able to raise my hand and say, "what about this?" and show him a picture of Ambulocetus. When he said there was nothing to connect that to modern whales, I could just hand him a picture of Basilosaurus. When he got flustered and said that these were all just peculiar and isolated creatures, I gave him a third picture with a dozen fossils in order. I couldn't give a lecture on whale evolution, but I could say just a few words and show a few pictures and make the point that he wasn't telling everyone the whole story.
  • Try to make points that anyone in the audience can understand. Even creationists can understand some simple logic, and you don't have to sell them short. One of Melquist's 'proofs' of the age of the earth was a truly bizarre calculation -- he said that every once in a while in the news you hear that a "leap second" is being added to bring the atomic clock standards into alignment with reality. By his calculation (which was way off anyway), the length of the day would have only been one hour long a mere 13,000 years ago. All I said was, "I can do you one better. We add a leap day to the year every four years. Therefore the year is getting longer by one day every four years, and 1500 years ago the year would have been only one day long." And then I mentioned that adding a leap day or second doesn't mean that the year or day is getting longer by that much, it just means that there is a discrepancy between the standards and the actual length. Everyone saw the flaw in his logic, and even those who were sympathetic to him were somewhat dubious after that.

The general consensus afterwards was that the evolutionists 'won', at least as determined by comments from other people there and the write-ups in the local newspaper. Melquist wasn't ground down into the dirt, there was no scoring, nobody went home feeling like a disillusioned idiot, but we'd managed to raise enough questions in everyone's minds that they went away thinking that our evangelical creationist didn't quite have a solid grasp on what he was talking about, and that maybe there was more to this evolution stuff than their minister claimed. The local newspaper reporter's story basically said she'd never thought much about the issue before and had thought of herself as a creationist, but after seeing the presentation, hearing the questions, and seeing how the speaker responded, she was leaning towards giving evolution a lot more credit. I think that's all we should aim for when we're looking for a 'win'.


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Comments:
Trackback: Myers' tips for arguing with creationists Tracked on: Majikthise (66.151.149.25) at 2004 07 10 07:06:41
PZ Myers of Pharyngula offers some excellent advice on debating with creationists. His recommendations are applicable to any skeptic engaged in rhetorical combat with a pseudoscientist. You can tell these recommendations are for debating pseudoscientists because they caution the skeptic



Trackback: Jul 10th 2004, 13:55 Tracked on: bbCity.co.uk (69.0.162.170) at 2004 07 10 07:55:45
Pharyngula: Tips for aruging with creationists.



#4301: — 07/10  at  07:59 PM
Ambulocetus
Basilosaurus

How is it that these are transitional creatures? Aren’t they just extinct creatures?

I have fossilized sharks teeth from the coast of North Carolina that are little differnet than modern sharks teeth, however much larger than most.

Contemporary research being done at UC Santa Cruz is demonstrating that natural selction may favor simple creatures for certain environments and complex ones for others.

For example starfish are the perfect predators and survivors for the environment in which it lives. But, there nervous system is extremely simple.

I think the “old” model of man being the “height” of evolution which was taught when I was in school does have to be challenged. The asumption that this was a linear evolution or even a branchlike process is putting the observations and conculsions ahead of the facts.

Don’t you think?



's avatar #4302: PZ Myers — 07/10  at  08:21 PM
They are both branches of a lineage exhibiting an increasing degree of adaptation to an aquatic existence.

I have no idea what the rest of your comment is talking about. You seem to be complaining about a view of evolution as a progressive process from lower to higher, but that is a creationist canard that hasn't been a legitimate perspective in evolutionary biology since...jeez, how old are you?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#4305: — 07/10  at  09:21 PM
I’m old enough to have gotten the trickled down science they fed in public schools. Films made in the dark ages. Books updated every year since the 19th century with no real improvements. — and these were good public schools — Thus, yes I am complaining.

I think it would be great if the scientiic dialogue would “evolve” rather than sink to the level of political debate. Debate makes for winners and losers, but conversation can lead to an understanding.

That “canard” and many others seem to linger, which underscores the need for conversation rather than debate.

exhibiting an increasing degree of adaptation to an aquatic existence. Neither one adapted well enough.

Evolutionary mutations do occur such as Caulerpa Taxifolia, and viruses jump species.

None of this threatens a “creationist” understanding, unless similar to the view of the Church vs. Galileo it is based on a wrong reading of the texts.

The world needs good science and research, and good science and research has never been in opposition to the truth. Nor can it be. Science that tries to disprove the relevance of God, does itself a disfavor.

And those whose beliefs are threatened by science need to ask questions and find out if the science is bad science (philosophy hiding behind shoody research, it happens) or if their beliefs include an erroneaous understanding.

IMHO.



#4308: Bruce Wielinga — 07/11  at  01:06 AM
I think that an important thing is to get the audiance to realise that it is not a choice to accept either science or religion. If they think it is like that, they will go for religion, and only listen to what supports their case, and not even listen to your points. If we can get them to realise that many religious people accept science, then they will listen to the arguments.



#4311: — 07/11  at  03:06 AM
Assuming your audience has a prevelance towards religion, then yes, a key to having them understand your points would be postitioning the science in away that is not an attack on faith in God. The best way to this is to do the best scienceyou can do. The better science gets the more it supports and underlines scriptural understanding.

Erroneous beliefs come from bad research in any area of understanding, this is true in theology, science, business, econmics, etc.

Errors can also come from pushing an agenda irregardless of the truth. ie. I interpret these words to mean the world is flat because 1. it is convenient for me to limit your ideas to taht, or 2. this is how I read this to be understood. However, that doesn’t mean that this is what the data shows.

There are research departments more in search of grants than true understanding of their data. And there are religions more in search of converts than true righteousness.

There are also those who when shown the objective facts of science, and the correlating scriptures and historical proofs of God will refuse to see this as well.

But there are also great minds working in science who worship and accept God as he has revealed himself in the scriptures, the prophets and the new testament.



#4379: — 07/12  at  04:48 PM
How old am I?

In your linked article, Tyranny Henry Gee begins using the assumption: We are accustomed to thinking of ourselves as peaks of perfection, and the arrangements of more "primitive" creatures as similar to our own, only cruder. It's a nice idea. Until along comes the sea lamprey to challenge our preconceptions.—Henry Gee

So, not everyone has advanced their views beyond this “canard” yet. And certainly the textbooks lag way behind. Glad to read about Lampreys though, because I do rememebr how fascinating they were to me as a kid reading about when they made their way into the Great Lakes.

I found this verying revealing also where Mr. Gee says, “the fallacy in the Intelligent-Design argument about the flagellar motor (or any other system), is that proponents present the motor we see as The Motor, the exemplar, the only one possible, and, what's more the best possible”

I’ve struck out the specifics to emphasize the general truth. When Intelligent Design(ers), Creationists, Scientists, or anyone argues that what we see currently in creation is the way God intended, they have deviated from the scripture.

The scriptures tell us that there have been changes in the “world”; with the fall of man, and with the flood; and that there is a perfection yet to come. The scripture does not say “flat earth” (although some physists are now saying that we do indeed [according to there views] inhabit a flat dimension) the scripture does not give “specific dates to creation by geneologies” (those are distributions of peoples and establishemtns of geographical regions).

I think science will find more to support itself (where it is not in error) by an accurate reading the scriptures. This is as true now as it was in Gallileo’s day. Where science trying to emerge from inaccurate readings of the scriptures had to battle against prejudices.

Both side, which is what they became, lost immeasurable ground. One lost the freedom and revelation it would gain in exploring the created world through the trained eyes of a developing science, and the other lost a wealthy and understanding patron who could advance these studies. Thankfully there are people who are crossovers with heart minds and bodies devoted to a union of knowledge.

Here’s to discovering truth. God bless.



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Trackback: Arguing against Astrologists Tracked on: www.prashantmullick.com (64.246.54.74) at 2004 07 10 22:21:59
PZ Myers over at Pharyngula writes about a few techniques that are seem to be useful in arguing with creationists. I'm sure such ideas can positively be applied when arguing against people who believe in astrology or similar pseudo-sciences. The ...



Trackback: Arguing against Astrologists Tracked on: AntiAstrology Blog (64.246.54.74) at 2004 07 12 15:32:04
PZ Myers over at Pharyngula writes about a few techniques that seem to be useful in arguing with creationists. It will be a useful exercise to determine how such ideas can be positively applied when arguing against people who believe in astrology. T...



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