#28687: Thomas Wilburn — 06/16  at  11:09 AM
Oh, that Chris Muir! Showing that the words could refer to something completely different IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SOCIAL, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL CONTEXT. How relevant he is! To borrow my favorite line from The Editors, Oh sir! My sides do split with mirth!

#28689: — 06/16  at  11:19 AM
We have to think of a new word. "Irony" just won't do it any more.

#28690: coturnix — 06/16  at  11:34 AM
I loved the Book of Hinderaker when I first read it and even more now that I have read it again. Publius and PZ are constantly fighting for the #1 spot on my blog-reading list.

#28695: PZ Myers — 06/16  at  12:14 PM
We have? I thought that bat'leth duel with a stranger this morning was just a dream! No wonder I'm so tired today.

#28696: — 06/16  at  12:25 PM
I cannot believe you americans do such horrid things to our men! You call yourselves civilized!? Our men are valiant warriors hiding amongst the peopel of Iraq and we fear ever being caught by you incorrigable americans. Your culture allows for you to justify peeing on a kOran and stripping our men and ridiculing them!! That is not culture! It is lack of culture; lack of civility! An outrage!

We use drugs and beheadings to get what we want! But maybe we will change our ways because of your great evil! We will now begin defecating on images of darwin in front of our prisoners. You will get what you deserve America!

We only want to strap bombs to our naive youth and send them into crowds and you resort to such LOW tactics! If my people ever catch your people in these times may Allah hold our hands back so that we don't begin throwing books of evolution into our piss and poop holes!

#28697: — 06/16  at  12:26 PM
Powerline has made a clear argument for their side, agree with it or not. You reply by posting four pictures and adding to it a few sentences of, well, trash talk.

As a scientist you are no doubt aware of the challenges of statistical measurement. I'm aware of the care researchers take when trying to choose unbiased samples for their research. Thinking in the vein, would you be able to state that the scenes in these pictures are a representative sample of behavior at our detention facilities? Can you state that the behavior shown is the result of American policy? Can you state that the term torture is applicable to the treatment seen here?

If so then why don't you make your case? You know, make an argument? How hard could that be for a University professor?

#28699: PZ Myers — 06/16  at  12:43 PM
Silly fellow. Powerline has not made an argument saying that those abuses don't exist, but that they are acceptable. Even that they are an "imperishable monument to the greatness of the American spirit".

As for Mr Al Hasami, you are simply a despicable ass. Deploring torture tactics by our side is not an endorsement of evil on your side.

It's always interesting how criticizing PowerLine consistently draws out the idiot wingnuts.

#28700: — 06/16  at  12:46 PM
Meanwhile, in Kansas:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050616/ap_on_re_us/kansas_school_crisis;_ylt=Avl_gR_dRdKhsJgwQ_mfcZOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2M2YzbmJmBHNlYwN1cw--

"Legal Woes May Shut Down Kansas Schools
...
TOPEKA, Kan. - Still smarting from a fight over evolution, Kansas schools now face an almost unthinkable possibility: They might not reopen in the fall because of a political and legal battle over education funding.
...
Some Republicans who control the Legislature want to defy the court, arguing it cannot tell them exactly what to spend on anything. Their tough talk has educators and others worried the court will order schools to remain closed until legislators comply.
..."



Family values.

#28702: — 06/16  at  12:54 PM
Ahmed Al Hasami is very obviosuly a Powerline sock puppet. Hinderaker is a repulsive American, but since he believes that the US is doing the good work, I can't help wondering why he diesn't sign up, and help in Iraq. Actually, I believe that people who endorses torture has nothing to do in positions where they might be able to submit other people to torture, so beacuse of theat, i think it's a blessing he's not there..

#28703: — 06/16  at  12:54 PM
The pictures that you depict (except for the last one?) do look like torture of some sort.

But the question is: Are you unable to distinguish between what is going on in those pictures, and the recent revelations? I.e., there's no difference between playing a Christina Aguilera song and what's happening in those pictures? It's all the same? It's all torture?

#28704: PZ Myers — 06/16  at  12:59 PM
Are you incapable of recognizing the difference between someone voluntarily tuning in a Christina Aguilera song and someone forced to listen to it at high volume, repeatedly, and at the expense of sleep?

Yes, it's torture.

And that Chris Muir cartoon is perfectly representative of the kind of blind dishonesty that wants to pretend being imprisoned at Gitmo is like attending a party.

#28705: — 06/16  at  01:00 PM

But the question is: Are you unable to distinguish between what is going on in those pictures, and the recent revelations? I.e., there's no difference between playing a Christina Aguilera song and what's happening in those pictures? It's all the same? It's all torture?

Yes, it is all torture, as defined by international and US law. It's like violence - there is differentiation between the severeness of violence, but it's still violence. The same goes for torture, it might be more or less severe, but it is still torture, and not something that should be administrated to other people.

#28707: — 06/16  at  01:05 PM
Laughs... it's clear to me now that you don't really understand the core issues here. It's always interesting how criticizing a person in a position of authority and status for making sophmoric arguments results in little more than ad hominem. Perhaps you prefer not to place your political opinions under public scruitiny?

I agree with your comments regarding "Mr Al Hasami". Certainly abuses by our troops does not excuse torture by others.

I will continue to drop by your site - I find your writing on evolution to be interesting and I share your concerns about creationism/ID.

cheers from one wingnut to another,

Bill

#28708: — 06/16  at  01:07 PM
It's interesting how different countries handle allegations of torture - when there were accusations of torture comitted by Danish soldiers, the person in charge of the interrrogations where it allegedly happened was put on trial, and the leader of the Danish camp was replaced. The leaders military career is currently on hold, while the trial against the person in charge of the allegations is being conducted. If she is conviceted, a trial against the leader of the camp might be in order - not because it is believed that he knew about it, but because it was his responsibility to ensure it didn't happen. Even if there is no trial against him, his military career will be down the drains, in the case of a conviction of the interrogation leader.

The torture was denial of water upon request, and forcing people to sit in uncomfortable positions for hours during interogation.

The people who brought it to attention of the military court system was the other military personel.

#28709: — 06/16  at  01:09 PM

while the trial against the person in charge of the allegations is being conducted

Ok, I should comment after working with a school project all day - I ment:

while the trial against the person in charge of the interrogations is being conducted

#28710: Cecrops Tangaroa — 06/16  at  01:21 PM
Quick response to Bill Jackson (#6) from a lurker:

Powerline claims "The mildness with which terrorist [sic!] detainees have been treated stands as an imperishable monument to the greatness of the American spirit and the moderation of the Bush administration." The fundamental claim of "mildness" is in doubt.

The baseline standard for the minimum acceptable treatment of prisoners by the US is set by the U.N. Convention Against Torture and the U.S.'s Eighth Amendment, among other laws and opinions on human rights. These two are a good start. The Convention defines torture as inflicting severe physical or mental suffering. The Eighth forbids any cruel or unusual punishment. Any severe physical or mental suffering or any cruel or unusual punishment exceeds the baseline of normal, average, expected behavior. From this baseline, only less suffering, less cruel treatment can be considered "mild treatment".

However, prisoners at Guantanamo allege being forced to endure freezing temperatures for long periods of time. Also at Guantanamo, a soldier posing as a detainee for a training exercise was beaten until brain-damaged when the MPs were not told it was a training exercise. These are just two links I could get on short notice. There is plenty more information out there. As for whether it is American policy, there are FOIA'd FBI and DoD memos showing approvals for torture techniques coming from Donald Rumsfeld and Ricardo Sanchez, and a complaint from an FBI man in Iraq that the torture techniques used in Abu Ghraib went beyond the limits of torture that was personally approved by Bush. Investigations into senior officer and contractor responsibility for the Abu Ghraib scandal has been blocked. On the basis of the evidence, there is plenty of reason to believe that torture is tolerated as an institution by the government.


Powerline also praises what I can only assume to be more intensely violent torture as "the more effective, but less humane, techniques that have been used since time immemorial". I am going to have to make an appeal to authority here, but every experienced interrogator's opinion I've even seen on the issue has been that heavy torture is not effective. People will say anything to get it to stop, so your data becomes polluted and untrustworthy. Powerline also makes the false accusation that every prisoner is a terrorist, which I noted with a "[sic]" in quoting. In sum, the Powerline opinion is based upon erroneous information and its conclusions become invalid when the errors are corrected.

#28711: — 06/16  at  01:24 PM
I thought that the core issue was whether to treat prisoners humanely. We appear not to be doing that. The fact that other people do extremely bad things does not justify our doing things that are not as bad. The fact that the US preaches democracy and human rights for everyone in the world obligates the US to live to a higher standard than those it preaches to. Even if you reject the ethical obligations that we have, the US should live to a higher standard for purely pragmatic reasons if for no others.

#28712: John S — 06/16  at  01:27 PM
May I suggest a moratorium on use of the term "ad hominem" until its meaning is understood?

Since when is it an ad hominem attack to point out that Hindrocket omits mention of the more serious torture incidents (beatings, stress positions, dog attacks ringing any bells?) on his way to making a hilariously over-the-top rhetorical point about the greatness of the American spirit?

Let's see him try to restate it honestly, taking into account all of the abuses which have occurred, rather than cherry-picking the more obviously borderline cases.

This week it's Christina Aguilera, last week it was the Koran, serving as convenient hand-waving distractions.

#28713: — 06/16  at  01:28 PM
Despicable Ass! There is no such thing. Ai, are you saying i am the only one! Do you realize the pain that brings me in my heart. The only asses i have known are wondrous things! They are worshipped in my Book of Asses. And now you call me the most unholy of that which i cannot fathom being so! I feel as though i am the disgrace of disgraces! It would be better for me that you pluck my eyeballs from my head and serve them on a plate of spaghetti for my dinner!

Ai great is the shame you bring upon me!

( i have no allegiance to hindrocket or the powerline cronies but your self righteous pomp about these GRAND abuses is idiocy. Playing loud music, sleep deprivation, humiliations...regardless of your claims, that is mild torture in comparison to tortures used in every other war. At what point is torture acceptable? Never? Is that how you'd feel if your son/daughter was being held by thugs and you had one of the thugs in your hands? War is ugly and will never be "sold" to the civilized. It is a necessary EVIL in a world full of scarcity and greed. Sure in your idyllic utopias, any torture would be horrendous...but this is not any utopia. I too wish for peace and an end to fighting and those idiotic bombings - but it's not an option... So i guess i should hop on the bandwagon of those pointing out every wrong our country does so that our president will look bad. As for that article by Hindrocket - he is correct about the US in this torturing crap...it does show that our country at least answers to a moral line...we do not take the torturing to where we could take it, being the most powerful country in the world. Would China's torturing be worse? Russia's? At least we aren't doing as they would...or worse as the Al Qaeda are.)

#28714: — 06/16  at  01:31 PM
Ahmed, perhaps you could read some of the earlier posts to get an answer to your points here.

#28715: John S — 06/16  at  01:36 PM
Why is anyone taking Ahmed's minstrel act seriously?

#28716: Matt Brauer — 06/16  at  01:40 PM
I think that Assrocket is gearing up for the photos from Gitmo that are supposed to be released by the end of the month.

It will be interesting to see how they ramp up the rhetoric to the point where the awful atrocities yet to come are pre-emptively justified.

#28717: — 06/16  at  01:40 PM
So the defense is 'at least we are not being as bad as China'? I thought it was 'at least we are not as bad as Stalin', but I guess it has changed.

A soldier I know, highly professionel, wounded in Afghanistan, says he won't go to Iraq, as it's just torture there. His expertice is things like interrogation, training and hostage situations, so when people like that would says no, it means that there is something wrong.
He is not directly connected to the Danish military, but to NATO as a whole, so if he went to Iraq, he would be working with US troops rather than Danish troops.

#28718: — 06/16  at  01:41 PM
Ahmed appears to have dropped the act but not his stage name.

#28723: — 06/16  at  02:14 PM
I agree with Ahmed and Hindrocket ("As for that article by Hindrocket - he is correct about the US in this torturing crap...it does show that our country at least answers to a moral line...we do not take the torturing to where we could take it, being the most powerful country in the world."). By the same logic--namely, we are morally superior because we have not tortured (presumably, as many) people as severely as we could--the Soviet Union gets a bad rap. They had enough nuclear weaponry to wipe most of the planet out of existence. Since they didn't, and only killed millions, as opposed to billions, of people, they actually were showing amazing virtue. Similarly, the United States still has enough nuclear (and non-nuclear) weaponry to destroy countries/continents, so anything we do that is short of that is not only merciful, it demonstrates what a beacon of magnanimity the U.S. is in this world. I'm actually going to start living my life in this way. I feasibly could rape, kill, beat, 10s if not hundreds of people, so if I choose to take those actions towards less than my potential allows, I will expect praise from all of these people, as I am sure Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy received during their, what seems now in retrospect, unjust trials and eventual punishments.