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Wednesday, December 21, 2005

True Christians™ don't do science

The National Review weighs in on the Kitzmiller decision, going for their usual simplistic black & white dichotomizing. David Klinghoffer thinks the choice is God or Darwin. The split is between god-hating atheistic evilutionists (apparently, Judge Jones must be in that group, but I don't know anything about his religious beliefs) and good Jesus-loving Christian creationists, with no conscionable position in between.

To support his claim, he trots out a parade of the wicked: Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Steven Weinberg, Paul Mirecki, and…PZ Myers. Ooo-whee, I find myself in august company!

He's exactly right about one thing: all the people on his little enemies list say terrible things about religion. Speaking for just myself, I don't like it at all—I think it's a bad idea to afflict a society with an institution dedicated to opposing critical thinking, the acceptance of dogma, and belief in unsupported and frankly, ludicrous claims. I'm going to express my detestation often and without reservation here, as the others in that list have done in their own venues. So? Is this an opinion we are not allowed to have? Does it make us unfit to speak on science or philosophy? Is it more offensive than the frequently stated and rarely questioned Christian opinion that we unbelievers are damned to spend all of eternity suffering in agonizing torment? (I suspect that most sensible Christians respond to us saying "piffle on religion" with a weary "eh" and perhaps a little eye-rolling, just as most sensible atheists find the flaming ghost-life threats weird and ineffectual.)

I suppose some atheists do fall into the trap of reciting rote dogma from the Book of O'Hair, although I've never met any; I know there are smart Christians who think sharply and insightfully, and only suspend their critical faculties when it comes to matters of faith—I just figure going to church is like reading a fantasy novel, a vice I indulge in now and then, and it doesn't have to mean their mind is necessarily rotting, except in those pathological cases where people are unable to separate reality from their religion or their favorite fantasy world…unfortunately, we do have a lot of them running about.

So, is faith a useful marker for distinguishing people who do not believe in evolution, and those who accept the scientific evidence? No. Most religious beliefs are irrelevant to the creation-evolution argument.

Many (about half, by some polls) scientists have accommodated their religious beliefs to their scientific ideas, rather than simply rejecting them. This is exactly as it should be, since religions that contradict the evidence of the world around them are going to have major difficulties advancing in any material sense. Klinghoffer confuses metaphysical naturalism with methodological naturalism in his little essay, leading to all of the usual logical offenses of creationists.

In fact, both Darwin and design have metaphysical implications and are expressions of a certain kind of faith. ID theorists are not willing to submit to the assumption that material stuff is the only reality. Darwinism takes the opposite view, materialism, which assumes there can never be a supernatural reality.

(I have to mention this again. Calling modern evolutionary biology "Darwinism" is idiotic. It's hard to read this stuff without assuming, usually correctly, that the writer is a clueless ignoramus.)

Let's clear this up and resolve all of Klinghoffer's contradictions, OK? Science practices methodological materialism or naturalism. We test material explanations of the world because that's all we can do—we don't have a supernatural toolkit. Christians can practice methodological materialism all they want without damning themselves to hell. Even non-scientists do this all the time, when, for instance, they thump a melon at the grocery store to see if it's ripe, rather than praying to god to send them a sign. Christians who are scientists can also sequence a zebrafish gene and compare it to a human sequence in GenBank without committing blasphemy. Unless, that is, they happen to belong to some weird brain-dead sectish form of Christianity, I suppose.

Meanwhile, completely independent of our ideas about evolution, some of us practice metaphysical naturalism. We conclude that there is no supernatural being because we see no reasonable evidence for it, and because many of the claims of fans of the supernatural are contradictory and a bit loony. However, this idea does not come into play when we're thumping melons or comparing genes either. Atheism and theism are properties completely orthogonal to anyone's ability to carry out the methods of science.

The Intelligent Design creationists are deliberately conflating two separate issues.

The chief counsel for the Thomas More Law Center implies that all evolution supporters are atheists.

"What this really looks like is an ad hominem attack on scientists who happen to believe in God," Thompson said of Jones’ ruling. Thompson is a former Oakland County prosecutor.

We atheists have standards, I'll have you know. Just being pro-science is not enough to join our ranks. Ken Miller, for instance, testified for the evolution side in the trial, and he believes in some sky fairy. That makes Thompson wrong.

On MSNBC News, they announced this:

In a major clash between faith and evolution, a federal judge in Pennsylvania ruled against intelligent design Tuesday, saying it should not be taught in the classroom.

Stuff and nonsense. There's nothing in the ruling that represents a clash between faith and evolution. Nothing was resolved against faith, much as we atheists might wish for a ruling that would get religion completely out of the government and public life. Nobody is going to be prevented from going to church or worshipping any god or gods they want by this decision. Judge Jones went out of his way to clearly state that there is nothing in the teaching of evolutionary biology that should conflict with anyone's preferred faith.

Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs’ scientific experts testified that the theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the existence of a divine creator.

Now here's a strange situation. I'm a flaming, uncompromising, damned heretical atheist, with a brutally unkind attitude towards religion, as many have noted. Yet here I am, saying that science and faith have nothing to do with each other, that this hypothetical, mythical god is something supernatural, unreachable by the toolkit of methodological naturalism, and that there are no empirical tests that can decide its existence yay or nay.

I hate to say it, but that makes me a "friend to faith" (not by intent or desire, though, but only as a consequence of adherence to principle), much more so than the conservative Christian who pins his belief in god to whether some microscopic collection of proteins in bacteria proliferating in his bowel evolved by natural means or not.

Klinghoffer doesn't understand that principle at all. He seems discombobulated by the complexity of a Christian professing his confidence in science.

Some advocates go further, seeing Darwin as a friend to faith. When I was in New York recently I spent an enjoyable hour at the new Darwin show at the American Museum of Natural History. In the last few yards of exhibit space, before you hit the inevitable gift shop, the museum addresses intelligent design. There's a short film with scientists talking about Darwin and religion, seeking to show that Darwinism actually has religion's best interests in mind. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome project and a self-identified Christian, says that ID can "potentially [do] great harm to people's faiths." How so? Says Collins: by "putting God in the gaps"—by discovering God's creative powers at the junctures in life's history that science can't so far explain. When science at last finds mechanistic explanations for every presumed miracle, where will that leave God?

Smart people see the Christian Francis Collins doing world-class science, and they realize that hey, studying the world around us doesn't conflict with their beliefs in things not of this world. Klinghoffer sees Francis Collins undermining his preconceptions about who can do science, and he thinks that "makes Collins a funny kind of Christian."

That's interesting. Klinghoffer thinks only his narrow interpretation of what Christians should think can define what a Christian is: if you believe in god but don't think he actively and directly conjured up blood clotting proteins, then you must be a "funny kind of Christian". If you want to raise up a child in the church, then by Klinghoffer's strange rules, the scientific professions are all closed off to that kid; if she were to close one of the gaps in our knowledge, she would be shutting out god.

Yet I, who deny all those things, am the threat.

I suppose Klinghoffer, who seems terribly divorced from reality, can think that, but it doesn't make it so. There is a simpler explanation. Many creationists are just stupid people and believe wrong things. It's the only way I can explain this odd and erroneous delusion about how atheists think.

And this, I think, is why some Darwin advocates dislike religion. It's why they fight it with such passion: Because negating religion is the reason behind their belief system. To their credit, they recognize a truth that others prefer not to see. That is: One may choose Darwin or one may choose God.

That's not a truth, and I don't recognize it. One can choose both. I don't think I'm unusual among atheists, either—we tend to bow to the evidence, and it's awfully hard to deny that there are theists doing science, directly contradicting Klinghoffer's claim. Maybe he received some supernatural message that denies the reality of what we see and hear?

I do dislike religion, and I do advocate for evolution, but I'd feel the same way even if I found Jesus, probably. Although the only way I'd find Jesus is if I experienced massive brain damage, so that's not entirely certain. And I have to concede that maybe if I did have some major cranial trauma, I'd think just like David Klinghoffer.


(There's another take on this article at What Culture War?)


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Comments:
#54747: Auguste — 12/21  at  06:24 PM
My father, who if I may beam with sonly pride for a moment is a world-striding scientist (but nothing next to PZ, of course!), is both one of the most religious people I know and one of the most passionately pro-science-education people I know.

And he's not brain-damaged, although I know what you mean.



#54748: — 12/21  at  06:29 PM
So, Klinghoffer is so completely without anything of sense to say about the decision that he has to attack atheism?

Damn! That Lutheran Judge Jones really got 'em worked up!

But then, we knew weeks ago the new, less intellectual National Review doesn't have anything of use to say on science, and very little of use on law.

BTW, when Thompson was talking about attacks on "scientists who believe in God," I immediately assumed he was calling for such attacks on scientists who understand evolution and also are faithful -- people like Dr. Francis Collins, Dr. Kenneth Miller, Dr. Duane Jeffery, and others. I had to check the transcript to see the logic error he was making. Everybody I just named is a devout believer, and a scientist who understands evolution. Their mere existence is brilliant rebuttal to the bizarre claims of Thompson.

Jesus inveighed against bullying, unfairness, bad economics, lying, and dishonesty. Jesus never complained about science, nor did Jesus ever say a single word that could be interpreted fairly as a complaint about evolution. It would be good if these guys would return to what Jesus said -- if they know what Jesus said.



#54749: — 12/21  at  06:36 PM
My father, an Episcopalian priest, has found himself defending evolution down in Panama. I am so very proud of him for being what he is. Granted, there are probably a lot of people out there who wouldn't think of him as a True Christian(tm) just because he's Episcopalian, but he's still a good showing of combined faith and reason.



#54750: — 12/21  at  06:45 PM
I'm an atheist and I've never read anything by O'hair, does that make me bad?

I did used to chat with her daughter years ago when I was moderating the compuserve collectibles forum and she was a member - she seemed very nice. Terrible what happened to them.



#54751: — 12/21  at  06:45 PM
This is the way I like to discombobulate the opposition...

"I don't like evangelicals/pentecostals/etc. and think they're going to hell because they tell lies about Jesus."

Most religious psychoceramics can't get their heads around the idea that one can accept the historical existance of Jesus but deny his divinity. Of course, as your article show, many of them cannot get their minds around a lot of ideas.



#54753: Orac — 12/21  at  07:01 PM
Judge Jones is a conservative, church-going Lutheran appointed by G. W. Bush himself. It's truly amusing to hear attacks on him as "activist."

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#54754: Morgan — 12/21  at  07:07 PM
I do dislike religion, and I do advocate for evolution, but I'd feel the same way even if I found Jesus, probably. Although the only way I'd find Jesus is if I experienced massive brain damage, so that's not entirely certain.


Be fair.

Maybe he'll turn out to have been behind the couch.



#54755: Geoffrey Brent — 12/21  at  07:12 PM
Two of the Dover plaintiffs were Vacation Bible School teachers; another was a Catholic whose daughter was labelled as an atheist because she believed in evolution.

Kenneth Miller put it well:

"...as a person of faith who was blessed with two daughters, who raised both of my daughters in the church, and had they been given an education in which they were explicitly or implicitly forced to choose between God and science, I would have been furious, because I want my children to keep their religious faith."



#54756: — 12/21  at  07:13 PM
Klinghoffer is absolutely right: neo-Darwinism and traditional religion are incompatible.

Dawkins has made this point many times, and although I do not hold Dawkins' views in high esteem at all, I think he is spot on when it comes to this issue. The claim that we have been created by a combination of random mutation and natural selection directly implies the falsity of traditional theistic beliefs (which hold that God deliberately and intentionally brought about the existence of human beings and their body plans, complex organs, and so on).

Scientists who claim to hold traditional religious beliefs while at the same time espousing neo-Darwinism are simply confused: neo-Darwinism and traditional theism put forward incompatible explanations of the fact that we are here at all. Neo-Darwinism insists that this is because it is not too unlikely given the existence of random mutations and natural selection, and theism insists that this is because God wanted it to be that way. Anyone who can't see the logical or rational incompatibility betwene these positions is invited to take a basic logic course.

Contrary to Meyers' claim, there is nothing at all weong with a term like "Darwinism", provided it doesn't imply rigid adherence to each and every thing Darwin believed. Marxists continue to call themselves "Marxist" despite having to update certain features of Marx' theory. "Darwinism" and "neo-Darwinism" are no more problematic than "Lamarackism", and all three terms are amply represented in the scientific liyerature. This makes it reasonable to use them, even if neo-Darwinists like P.Z. Myers don't like it.

Science is supposed to be a search for truth based on empirircal evidence. Restricting science to methodological naturalism is unnecessary. It is confused to say that "science doesn't have a supernatural toolbox". We don't need to have a supernatural toolbox, we need to follow the evidence wherevere it leads, and if it leads us to the existence of entities which could reasonably be called "supernatural", then so be it: we follow the evidence where it leads.

The problem with the claim that science is restricted to methodological naturalism is that science is assumed to be a search for truth based on empirical evidence. By assuming that this search for truth can be adequately carried out using nothing more than the tools of methodological naturalism, one implicitly denies that there is anything more to reality than the natural universe. And it takes a lot of FAITH to assume that this is so.



#54757: — 12/21  at  07:29 PM
Logan: The point PZ is making, I think, is that Darwinism is a very specific position in evolution, and one that's probably the minority among scientists.

What is it, 99.85% of biologists accept evolution? But I doubt even half of them are "Darwinists". That position entails certain things that ARE debatable - for instance, the possible influence of things other than simple natural selection; ie, evo-devo, meta-evolution, population dynamics...

There are problems with the strict Darwinist view ... but that's not a problem for Evolution, just for the strict Darwinist subset thereof. But creationists like to coopt terms and misuse them, so they use "Darwinist" to mean "someone who accepts evolution", and try to conflate it with "athiest", as well.


(... confirmation word: "outgroup".)



#54758: — 12/21  at  07:30 PM
Klinghoffer gets off on the wrong foot by misstating what Jones ruled, which was not that you cannot 'disparage' darwinism in science class.

What he said boils down to 'you cannot critique darwinism without offering more evidence than belief in a Big Spook.'

For a Jew to defend the utility (if nothing more) of Christian religion, shall we say, piquant?



#54759: — 12/21  at  07:31 PM
Klinghoffer gets off on the wrong foot by misstating what Jones ruled, which was not that you cannot 'disparage' darwinism in science class.

What he said boils down to 'you cannot critique darwinism without offering more evidence than belief in a Big Spook.'

For a Jew to defend the utility (if nothing more) of Christian religion, is shall we say, piquant?



#54760: — 12/21  at  07:33 PM
...there are no empirical tests that can decide its existence yay or nay.

AGNOSTIC!



's avatar #54763: Raven — 12/21  at  08:17 PM
Neo-Darwinism insists that this is because it is not too unlikely given the existence of random mutations and natural selection, and theism insists that this is because God wanted it to be that way. Anyone who can't see the logical or rational incompatibility betwene these positions is invited to take a basic logic course.


Speaking of basic logic, Logan, are you familiar with the difference between the closed-world assumption and the open-world assumption?

Scientists who claim to hold traditional religious beliefs while at the same time espousing neo-Darwinism are simply confused: neo-Darwinism and traditional theism put forward incompatible explanations of the fact that we are here at all.


No, they just don't insist on coupling methodological naturalism with the closed-world assumption, as you do, is all. PZ states, quite rightly, that what is not demonstrably "true" under methodological naturalism is "unknown" (open-world assumption). You and Klinghoffer, by contrast, seem to be asserting that what is not demonstrably "true" must be "false" (closed-world assumption), and that therefore science and religion must be in opposition. But that "opposition" is only an artifact of your choice of assumption.



#54764: Ritchie Annand — 12/21  at  08:17 PM
There's just a lot of this false dualism going on, and there has been since the dawn of time. You're with us or against us, if you're wrong about something, we must be right about it, blah, blah, blah-yadda-bladdah.

I've seen some of this thinking up close and personal, and it's pretty spooky. Far from "not thinking about the issue", they launch into what amounts to strict logic that admits only boolean (true/false) propositions - that only diametric opposites are possible. The overly "logical" arguments also often include X-must-always-imply-Y and Y-in-turn-always-implies-X arguments as well as needed to reach the foregone conclusion.

They often sound pretty smart, but there's often a problem with one of the premises, or something in their wrap-ups. I read one of Dembski's papers on specified complexity, and he actually does his math correctly in showing that a specified target needs extra information, etc. etc. Where his argument breaks down is in the last 5-10% of the paper where he is totally misrepresenting evolution as being like this bearing-down-on-a-predetermined-target math he is talking about.

If his analogy were true at all, then there would have to be a designer involved to make sure your babies were human (since his 'target space' is the space of all possible organisms), never mind that it implies an ultra-strong teleological argument (evolution was specifically spending all this time targetting you as the end point).

I wish there were a way to easily expose false dualism whenever it happens. The ID proponents and fans seem perpetually itching to draw an artificial single line in the sand.



#54766: — 12/21  at  08:21 PM
Logan: "We don't need to have a supernatural toolbox, we need to follow the evidence wherevere it leads."

And that evidence would be ... ?



#54767: — 12/21  at  08:24 PM
It is a bit confusing. Here we have Dr. Myers saying that one does not have to choose between science and religion, and that science and faith have "nothing to do with each other." On August 5, 2005 ("Get out of the quicksand, Panda's Thumb"), Dr. Myers said "there really is a conflict between science and religion," and on January 19, 2005 ("A little thinking out of the box") he said, of the idea that science and religion "should be" compatible, "they aren't, they really aren't."

How can two things conflict if they have nothing to do with each other? How can one avoid choosing between two options which are not compatible with each other (or, perhaps more precisely, what are we to say of people who simultaneously believe in incompatible things)?



#54768: — 12/21  at  08:26 PM
The silver lining of the Klinghoffer approach is that it reduces the size of his team. By taking the 'Genesis is not a parable' approach he is defining his position outside of one that most self described Christians are comfortable with. The 'factuality' of the Genesis story is what drives the anti-evolutionists; but most Christians tend to think of the Bible as a book of morality tales, not a literal history book.

If they want to draw the division at Genesis, then they are arguing to be a minority cult forever. A loud, well funded, devious cult, but a cult they are.



's avatar #54769: PZ Myers — 12/21  at  08:32 PM
They can conflict because religion is not uniform. The religion we have to deal with in this debate is exclusive, restrictive, literal and absurd -- religion like that of Klinghoffer, which isn't going to be compatible with science.

Not all religion is quite like that.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#54770: — 12/21  at  08:39 PM
"studying the world around us doesn't conflict with their beliefs in things not of this world"

I think this is where I diverge from your line of thought. It's obvious to me that, unless you think beliefs have an otherworldly source, studying the world around us does conflict with beliefs in things "not of this world." Notably, neuroscience, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and history give alternative explanations of theistic belief formation, and leave us with little reason to suppose that every utterance must have a referent, especially if that referent is "outside empirical enquiry."

(In fact, I think the notion that the sentence "God exists" refers to something "outside empirical enquiry" commits one to believing that the psychology of belief itself is outside empirical enquiry, since whatever the connection between beliefs and their referents is, for that connection to be explained empirically requires an empirical account of both the beliefs and their referents.)

Even if you don't buy that, this demarcation between science ("methodological naturalism") and whatever's left is still odd. I mean, it's not really even ruling out experimenting on the supernatural. We can easily test, say, the efficacy of prayer. It's been done, albeit fraudulently to give a positive result, but could easily be done fairly (with a likely negative result). The fact that believers can keep "moving the bar," while annoying, doesn't change the fact that this is a test of a supernatural property. I suppose you can take the fact that all such tests are likely to come out in favour of naturalism as saying science is limited to testing natural properties, but I find that conclusion extraordinarily perverse. In any similar situation, you'd take it to mean these things have been tested and found not to be effectual.

Of course, you can't do experiments on supernatural properties that don't interact with the natural world, but you could run experiments to see if anyone actually believes in supernatural properties that don't interact with the natural world (which I find unlikely) outside the speculations of philosophers (and the philosophical informed arguments of cornered theists). That kind of testing of beliefs against testimony is a normal part of psychology and anthropology.

I think all of this constitutes "conflict."



#54771: — 12/21  at  09:02 PM
poke,

Maybe I am misreading this, but it sounds to me like PZ is saying that there are those able to act and do as scientists and also believe that they are religious or even Christian.

While he seems to respect that position, moreso than I, it does not appear to me that he is agreeing with those scientist/Christians.



's avatar #54772: Raven — 12/21  at  09:04 PM
We can easily test, say, the efficacy of prayer. It's been done, albeit fraudulently to give a positive result, but could easily be done fairly (with a likely negative result).


What do you mean by "efficacy of prayer"? Do you mean the effect of mental/verbal/physical act of praying on the prayer, or do you mean the mechanism by which a supernatural actor of some kind receives a transmission and acts on it? Because I can see how you would study the first (although not "easily"), but how you would propose a detectable mechanism for the second, and validate any instrument used to measure it, I don't understand.



#54773: — 12/21  at  09:12 PM
What do you mean by "efficacy of prayer"? Do you mean the effect of mental/verbal/physical act of praying on the prayer, or do you mean the mechanism by which a supernatural actor of some kind receives a transmission and acts on it?


Nah, the efficacy of prayer on obtaining a particular result for the person being prayed for. For example, having a church pray for one group of cancer patients and not for another, and seeing if the prayed-for group has a better survival rate.



's avatar #54774: PZ Myers — 12/21  at  09:12 PM
Yep. They believe goofy stuff, but it's possible to believe some goofy stuff and still do science (especially since we all believe some goofy stuff).

Was there some ambiguity in this post about my disliking religion?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#54775: — 12/21  at  09:12 PM
"O monks and wise ones, do not accept my words simply out of reverence. You should subject them to critical analysis and accept them on the basis of your own understanding." ~ Siddharta Guatama, Buddha.

Hence, I am both a supporter of rational science and a Buddhist. I find them to be completely compatable.



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