Pharyngula

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Friday, November 18, 2005

Vatican whipsaw

Once again, we've got a different set of statements on evolution from the Vatican. Rev. George Coyne, the director of the Vatican Observatory, slams the Intelligent Design creationists.

"Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Father Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."

And also…

"If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly."

This is good. I can go along with most of it, although I wish people would stop saying that ID ought to be taught as religion or culture—it's neither. It's an arbitrary construct, as artificial as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a short-term contrivance to get around restrictions in American law.

But, you know, there is another problem of principle. I reject the authority of religion in all matters scientific. I think Cardinal Schönborn was wrong to reject evolution, and his credentials in the church were irrelevant to the matter at hand. Likewise, while it's nice that Coyne is supporting the scientific view, his status as a bigwig in the Catholic church is about as relevant as if he were Chief Clown at the Barnum & Bailey circus. His position as an astronomer is significantly more convincing, but still…astronomy is not evolutionary biology. If we are to encourage respect for legitimate expertise, it defeats the purpose if we then uncritically accept the words of someone whose main claims to fame are regard in an unrelated science and his membership in a hierarchy of medieval metaphysicians who wear funny hats.

Maybe we should just disregard religious authority in all of its forms, even when it says stuff we like.

Also, Coyne should have shut his mouth after criticizing Intelligent Design creationism. What are we supposed to make of this kind of silliness?

Rather, he argued, God should be seen more as an encouraging parent.

"God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity," he wrote. "He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves."

What does he know of this god? How does he know how it operates? What evidence does he have for any of these vague claims, these peculiar insights into the hypothetical mind of a mythical being? When people purport to speak for gods, we should just pat them on the head and escort them to a nice quiet room for a little lie-down, and maybe give them a damp cloth and a good cup of tea.

We should not treat them as respected authorities…figure of pity would be more like it.


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Comments:
#49739: Stephen Frug — 11/18  at  09:48 PM
Don't you go slandering the Flying Spaghetti Monster, now, calling him arbitrary and everything.



#49740: Stephen Frug — 11/18  at  09:53 PM
On a more serious lower carbohydrate note, surely the reason to take Coyne is not for his (nonexistent) credentials as a biologist, but for his credentials on religion, i.e. arguing against those who say that not to allow ID in schools is to promote a POV on religious issues since it implies atheism? On religious issues, surely the guy has some credentials.



#49743: — 11/18  at  10:10 PM
At the risk of reigniting the Dilbertian war of weasels ... I care as much about what a Catholic big wig thinks of evolution as I care what Scott Adams, or Dilbert hisself, thinks. However, those under the thrall of this social 'leader' are being diverted from the shiny light of ID/creationism, so it is a good thing for his flock; even if there is no god to love them or their place in the universe.

Now if he would just recant and divert them from the shiny light of 'eternal salvation', he could provide a real service.



#49744: — 11/18  at  10:20 PM
Yes, let's crap on people who agree with us because they have the wrong credentials.

All others, shut up.



#49745: Rick @ shrimp and grits — 11/18  at  10:47 PM
Shouldn't we be basing our opinion here on the quality of the arguments presented rather than the degree the presenter is waving around?

The God stuff at the bottom is a different issue, but the guy's coming out and saying that just because you're Catholic doesn't mean you should put up with others lobbying your local schools to teach pseudoscience instead of real science. I can't view that as a bad thing no matter how hard I try.

And maybe when the kids learn the good science, they'll follow the arguments and look up the relevant facts rather than just listening to the guys with the funny hats.

(Out of curiousity, exactly what qualifications do you need to determine that ID is pseudoscience - other than a basic knowledge of the scientific method and knowing what real scientific theories are supposed to do?)



#49746: Federico Contreras — 11/18  at  10:50 PM
as artificial as the Flying Spaghetti Monster


W.T.F. PZ, some apologies for the site's FSMers are in order methinks!

YARR!

Or ya walk the plank you caucasoid landlubber.



#49748: flea — 11/18  at  11:05 PM
as artificial as the Flying Spaghetti Monster


Now, sir, you have gone too far.



#49750: Jeremy — 11/18  at  11:25 PM
Like Stephen said and like has been previously suggested on this blog, you'd expect the Vatican to know religion when it sees it. If he comments specifically on intelligent design, then he has impeccable credentials. The science is reserved for PZ and other evolutionary biologists.



#49753: — 11/18  at  11:44 PM
Thanks for the best laugh I've had all week.



#49754: — 11/18  at  11:47 PM
It is certainly good that a major religious organization comes out against ID. This presents a problem for those who claim that evolution is an atheist conspiracy. Of course since most of the ID advocates are protestant fundementalists it just reinforces their belief that the Catholic Church is run by Satan.



#49758: — 11/19  at  01:58 AM
Religion has its own methods and authorities; and they will continue to be used by many people for the foreseeable future. Coyne is legitimately an authority on religion within the Roman Catholic Church.

In the modern age churches are effectively powerless to impose their authority more widely than their own membership. Hence the authority of Coyne on religion is worthless to someone from a different tradition -- protestant, hindu, or (like Paul and like myself) strong atheist and non-participant in any religious tradition. However, Coyne does have a significant level of authority within the RC church; not exceptional but enough that he is taken seriously within the church.

This is what we need. We need people with recognition and credibility within a religious community to speak up; and while we have no need to pay them any attention on our own behalf; I don't think it is a good idea to disparage them for speaking up on the nature of God.

I have my own perspective, and but I don’t consider it to be an empirical scientific model, or a necessary view for competence in science. I am quite sure that there is no God and no good reason to think there is a God. I think the methods by which religious leaders attempt to discern aspects of this alleged God are arbitrary and unreliable; and that this means the church will continue to be a breeding ground for irrational and counter factual positions with respect to such things as evolutionary biology, even as others in the church remain entirely sensible on the subject.

This is a perspective I have on religion; not a personal comment on those with different views. Coyne is making good sense; the association between religion and pseudoscience is not a necessary one. I am glad that Coyne has a view of God that does not require him to misrepresent the state of modern science; and pragmatically, I think such comments from religious leaders are the only way the creationism problem will be resolved to the point where its ill-effects are limited to consenting persons in private.



#49761: — 11/19  at  03:05 AM
In the modern age churches are effectively powerless to impose their authority more widely than their own membership. Hence the authority of Coyne on religion is worthless to someone from a different tradition -- protestant, hindu, or (like Paul and like myself) strong atheist and non-participant in any religious tradition. However, Coyne does have a significant level of authority within the RC church; not exceptional but enough that he is taken seriously within the church.


I don't think you are quite right. When high ranking Christians says something about religion, it is certainly taken seriously by other (especially high ranking) Christians, no matter if they belong to the same branch. However, it is true, that his words will carry more weight within his own branch, since it is based on one particular tradition. The other branches will evaluate his words based on their own traditions.



#49771: Ancarett — 11/19  at  07:35 AM
Well, I'm not a biologist so would you take it amiss and mock me were I to encourage my students (or any other audience) to dismiss ID and to take the standards of evolutionary biology seriously? I hope not! Just as when a non-historian or non-academic dismisses the arguments of Holocaust deniers, do you think I would spurn that support simply because they weren't part of my establishment?

I think anyone who steps forward to support an important truth ought to be welcome, even if the institution they represent isn't something I, personally, respect, admire or revere.



#49774: — 11/19  at  07:55 AM
Coyne went out on a limb to publicly disagree with a cardinal over a sensitive issue. The fact that he harbors god-beliefs along the way should come as no surprise. Besides, when a donkey flys, you don't criticize it for not staying up for very long.



#49781: — 11/19  at  09:18 AM
Likewise, while it's nice that Coyne is supporting the scientific view, his status as a bigwig in the Catholic church is about as relevant as if he were Chief Clown at the Barnum & Bailey circus.
Indeed. Being a bigtime vatican official doesn't make one an expert in anything. Except possibly touching the childrens.



#49782: — 11/19  at  09:18 AM
so you don't want astronomers to support the fight against
Intelligent Design? you want to disavow the statement
of the American Astronomical Society, at aas.org?

I'm disappointed in you, PZ. If you think that biologists
of whatever stripe are the only ones to understand the
basic issue - that ID is not scientific - then you've lost
a lot of allies needlessly, and insulted their intelligence
as well.



's avatar #49783: PZ Myers — 11/19  at  09:37 AM
People are misunderstanding me. I think what Coyne said is good (I even said it: "This is good.")

I am saying that we must evaluate ideas on the basis of the argument and expertise, not this untoward attention to irrelevant affiliations. Coyne is in the news because he is a prominent member of the Catholic church, and that is wrong. Being a member of the Catholic church is not a helpful criterion here.

Also, I was reading his comments and thinking, "Yes, mm-hmm, very good"…and then I hit the wacky stuff about God, and it completely discredited everything he'd said before. It's irrational nonsense that undermined his credibility.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#49785: — 11/19  at  09:46 AM
Yes, let's crap on people who agree with us because they have the wrong credentials.


Great idea! We can start with the churchgoing citizens of Dover who voted out the wingnut school board members.

Honestly, the contempt you show for anyone with religious belief is downright bigoted sometimes.



#49786: Keith Douglas — 11/19  at  09:49 AM
I am glad that Coyne has spoken out, but I fear he's going to be branded heretical (and hence might get less people supporting him.) Correct me if I am wrong, but his position is one of deism - no intervention except at the "beginning" (sic). This entails no Incarnation, whence no Christianity.

(Phylon? Is that the singular of phyla?)



#49790: Rick @ shrimp and grits — 11/19  at  10:06 AM
He's in the news because he's a religious figure who supports the proper teaching of biology.

"Biologists support teaching of biology" somehow doesn't make for as snappy a headline. smile



#49791: — 11/19  at  10:23 AM
ID is not science and bad theology. Coyne criticizes it on both fronts. His statements are relevant because he has legitimate religious authority, and because, freed of the need to force fit evolution into his theology, he can see it clearly as science. He does not seem to be decreeing that his theology is science, so criticizing it on scientific grounds is not fair. He does seem to be saying that theology must be compatible with scientific knowledge; you are saying exactly the same thing, though the conclusion that you reach is different. I don't agree with either you or Coyne; my theology (for lack of a better term) lies somewhat in between.



#49794: Jayme Lynn Blaschke — 11/19  at  10:51 AM
Keith, Coyne isn't going as far as diesm. He's not denying god's presence in the material world, but rather contending that the diety isn't a micro-manager (ie he didn't send a tornado to kill people in the midwest because he was angry with Warren Beatty trying to crash Ah-nult's fundraiser in California).

And I've always thought astronomy, geology and the other sciences should line up firmly and aggressively in biology's corner where evolution and ID are concerned--is there any doubt that the young earth creationsists are going to be gunning after those disciplins if they ever triumph over the Evilutionists?

And even though one's religious authority should be irrelevant in this tussle, I firmly believe it is naive of biologists to think in those terms when the public opinion is involved. The ID creationists have been successful in many cases in framing evolution as a choice between faith and atheism. That might be an easy choice for PZ, but that's not the world we live in. I look at the recent Virginia governor's race as an example: the democratic candidate did not keep religion at arm's length, and that strategy allowed him to negate the cross-swinging, Bible-thumping attacks of his Republican opponent. ID is a religious issue, no matter how much proponents argue otherwise, so science should batter them more aggressively on that front as well.



#49803: Alon Levy — 11/19  at  12:06 PM
"If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly."

Without a dictator god that tells people to do what their priest says, donate to the church, not use birth control, and not divorce regardless of the circumstances, Catholicism is nothing.



#49805: — 11/19  at  12:33 PM
Speaking as an atheist, I am glad to see major religious figures stand up and say that there does not need to be a conflict between religion and science. I have long since given up the notion that I can cure humanity of it's religious beliefs. But I think protecting science from religious maniacs is something that can and should be done, and I would welcome the support of moderate religious figures, or even *shudder* astronomers. They may not be evolutionary biologists, but they understand what science is.
-Andy B



#49807: — 11/19  at  12:45 PM
But you can't argue with his statements about god....as you said, you must leave critique to the experts in their respected fields. He is an expert on god. And you can't argue with me because I am an expert giver of advice.This game is fun.



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