Pharyngula

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Thursday, June 16, 2005

Volokh's question

Eugene Volokh asks, "Is evolution a threat to religious belief?" His answer is confused, and the more he thrashes around, the more he muddles his argument. He's responding to a post by Michael Shermer that takes Intelligent Design creationism to task, and is specifically reacting to a poll question and some general comments by Shermer that reject the existence of God.

Well, if "the standard scientific theory" is that "God had no part" in the process of evolution -- not just that human beings developed in a particular way, but that God didn't guide this -- then it seems to me that the theory of evolution is a challenge to many people's deeply held religious convictions. And that's so not just as to the young-earthers who believe the Earth was created several thousand years ago, but also to people who are willing to embrace the scientific evidence but see the guiding hand of God in the process.

He's got one thing wrong and one thing right. "The standard scientific theory" does not say anything at all about God. It doesn't say he exists or doesn't, it doesn't even mention him; you can read through book after book, rummage through all the primary research papers in the scientific literature, and his name simply does not come up. I think that's telling in itself, but Volokh is arguing over the wording of some comments in the popular press, not the actual scientific interpretation.

What he has right, though, is that science does challenge religious convictions. Literalism is nonsense; the young earth malarkey is idiocy; any claim of direct, observable divine action in the history of life on earth is extremely dubious and steadily decreasing in probability. The religious are going to have to get used to it. Where reality conflicts with dogma and doctrine, I know what side I'm going to be on.

Although this is the kind of debate on which reasonable people can have an interesting discussion, some things are just annoying and need to be cleanly squashed. Like this:

What's more, how exactly do scientists come to the conclusion that "God had no part in this process"? What's their proof? That's the sort of thing that can't really be proved, it seems to me -- which makes it sound as if scientists, despite their protestations of requiring proof rather than faith, make assertions about God that they can't prove.

Complete drivel. Scientists don't talk about "proof", period. We leave that to the mathematicians. This is something I yell at my freshman biology majors, by the way. I know it's out of the purview of a scholar of constitutional law, but if he's going to make claims about science, shouldn't he know the bare basics of the discipline?

Change the word "proof" to "evidence", and it makes more sense. It's still wrong, but at least he isn't railing against a straw man anymore.

And on top of that, if the standard scientific theory is that "God had no part in this process," then the opponents of evolution are right -- the standard theory of evolution may not be taught in the schools. The Court has repeatedly said that the Establishment Clause bars both government endorsement and disapproval of religion. Teaching that God exists and teaching that God doesn't exist are both unconstitutional in government-run schools. Likewise, if teaching that God created humans is unconstitutional, so is teaching that God had no part in creating humans.

Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary. There goes physics, chemistry, geology, biology…. Volokh is asking us to paralyze our critical thinking facilities lest we contradict religious zealots.

Here's a simple example of the nature of the evidence against any god's role in various processes. Take a coin and flip it a hundred times; you'll get somewhere around 50 heads, and somewhere around 50 tails. You won't see predictable patterns; you can do multiple trials; you can do statistics. All we see are the outcomes of some fairly consistent laws of probability. Now, if you want, you can argue for a rule-bound god that is the laws of probability, and that's one common "out"—that's the kind of pantheistic deity Einstein had in mind.

What would be silly, though, is what the creationists want to do. What they want to argue is the equivalent of saying that in our trial of 100 coin flips, that third one that came up heads and the 87th one that came up tails were willed by God. They have no evidence for the assertion, they just say it is so. Can scientists "prove" that claim is false? No. We can say, though, that it is an unnecessary hypothesis, that the observations all fit within standard probabilities, and that the claimant is going to have to come up with better evidence for an extraordinary claim than voices whispering in his head.

Ultimately what this kind of argument means is that the proponent is favoring a God of the Noise, a deity who slips into random variation and makes minute tweaks, always in balance, so that the net outcome is unbiased. I should think that is even more theologically demeaning than the God of the Gaps.

Now here's what I think Mr. Shermer is driving at by saying that "God had no part in this process" is the standard scientific theory: The standard theory tries to explain how humans might have evolved without calling on God as an explanation. This isn't because scientists can prove that God doesn't exist in any logical or even empirical sense of "prove." Nor is it because assuming that God had no part in the process is more consistent with the facts than assuming that he did have a part in the process; the God assumption is perfecty consistent with the facts. Nor is it even because in some abstract sense omitting God yields the simplest explanation; "God did it" (3 words!) is a much simpler explanation than the theory of evolution.

More drivel. First, do I have to repeat myself on the naive use of the word "prove" again? Second, parsimony is not defined by the number of words behind an explanation, especially not when one of the words is a galumphing mega-colossus like "god". Nor is a vague, superficial consistency of any value: "God did it" is also a consistent explanation of the reality of how kidneys work, I suppose, but you'd damn well better hope your doctor knows something about salt regulation, nephric function, and renal circulation if you're in kidney failure.

I would also add that for a theory to be of any use, details are important. "God did it" does not tell us anything about why we have kidneys instead of salt-secreting lachrymal glands, or what ADH, aldosterone, renin and angiotensin do. So why should anyone settle for such a useless, empty phrase? Why should it be an acceptable substitute for evolution, but not for physiology?

I'm being hard on Volokh, because I think most of his argument is incoherent babble. I do think, though, that eventually he settles on a reasonable conclusion.

In that sense, the theory may be described as "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, and we can explain that without bringing in God's intervention." Many scientists conclude that this explanation makes it more plausible that God had no part in the process. Others may conclude that if there's no evidence supporting the existence of some influence, it's methodologically more useful to assume that the influence doesn't exist until some supporting evidence is found. Still others may use "God had no part in this process" as shorthand for "God had no observable part in this process."

Yes, exactly. There is no evidence for gods of any kind, so it would be exceedingly silly to incorporate them into our theories. There's also no evidence for Cthulhu, Thor, Marvin the Martian, or sentient gas clouds spitting DNA at us. Science doesn't bother with those hypotheses, either, but neither do scientists mince words when someone comes whining that we have to teach our kids about their great theory of Martian Marvintervention—we just say no. Come back when you've got some reasonable evidence.

Until then, we should teach that naturalism and materialism are adequate explanations for worldly phenomena. Does Volokh know that that is what Phillip Johnson and his cronies at the Discovery Institute are actually attacking, beyond evolution? Their goal is to get the supernatural accepted as legitimate forces in science, sans evidence.

In answer to Volokh's question about whether evolution is a threat to religious belief, I'd have to say yes, it definitely is, to most forms of religious belief. But that's because reality is a threat to those same beliefs.


Ophelia Benson makes a similar point: what it's all about is how well our ideas accord with reality.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2435/ZF97o9wI/

Comments:
#28751: Mark Nutter — 06/16  at  04:31 PM
I dunno, reality has been around for a long time, and religion does not seem terribly moribund to me. I think science is a threat to religion only when religion attempts to trespass on science's turf. In that case it's fair game. But outside those boundaries I doubt science's power to actually deliver a telling blow against religion. Religion lives in the deep crannies of men's minds where science does not often reach, at least in the majority of the cases. It would be in the best interest of science to defend its own turf, and clearly mark the boundaries, but not to overextend its reach.



's avatar #28752: PZ Myers — 06/16  at  04:34 PM
OK, I'm willing to set the boundaries: science gets all matter, all energy, all time and all history in the universe.

Religion can have the rest.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28754: pough — 06/16  at  05:09 PM
Religion can have the donuts that Homer doesn't eat.



#28755: — 06/16  at  05:09 PM
You forgot the space dimensions. They are inextricably linked to the other ones. So science will be needing those too.



#28757: Mark Nutter — 06/16  at  05:17 PM
Sounds fair to me. smile



#28758: paperwight — 06/16  at  05:25 PM
I stopped reading Volokh a long time ago, when it became clear that he wasn't even a fake libertarian -- he was always willing to shill for the Republican Fundamentalists and torture apologists.



#28760: — 06/16  at  05:36 PM
No doubt Eugene worked really hard on his little essay, poor thing. He's looking hard to find those gaps into which he can wedge his god. It's not easy and no doubt he's frustrated. No wonder: deity is superfluous to science. It is said that Napoleon was concerned by Laplace's great tome on celestial mechanics and asked the mathematician why he had written at such length about the system of the universe without once mentioning God. Laplace is supposed to have replied, "Sir, I have no need of that hypothesis."



#28764: Erica — 06/16  at  06:06 PM
Before you have an angry mob chasing you down, I'd change the word "reality" in the last paragraph to "observable reality". The difference may be virtually non-existant to a scientist, but religious people tend to define the word "reality" in terms of their own religion and beliefs (for better or worse).



#28765: Matt McIrvin — 06/16  at  06:11 PM
All this because of a badly worded poll question.



#28766: — 06/16  at  06:39 PM
Dr. Myers' objection to the word "proof" has cropped up more than once on this site, and perhaps this small comment is in order:

In law (and I believe Mr. Volokh is in that business), the word "proof" is often used as a synonym for "evidence." Trial lawyers, for example, "put in their proof," which means that they submit their evidence to (or in) a court. "What's your proof?" often means no more and no less than "what's your evidence?" And "proving" something means submitting sufficient evidence to meet whatever the applicable legal standard is to sustain a proposition (e.g., "by a preponderance of the evidence"), or to persuade a judge or jury that your claim is sufficiently supported to be accepted.

My sense is that this meaning of "proof" is also used in other contexts as well. The OED lists "a piece of evidence ... establishing a fact" as the first definition of "proof" (and "to prove" is defined as "to test"). When we challenge someone to "prove" an assertion, we often are requesting that they produce evidence, and when we say something has been "proved" we often mean just that evidence has been produced which is sufficient or adequate to support it (over an alternative). My sense is also that Mr. Volokh has used "proof" in this way in his article.

Those of us who take science seriously, and who read Dr. Myers attentively, will be less likely to use "proof" when we mean "evidence," especially when talking about matters of science. I, myself, think the distinction between proof and evidence is often likely to improve clarity and precision.

If "proof" means "evidence" in other contexts, that does not compromise Dr. Myers' point(s) that these words are not legitimately interchangeable in science, and that if people write about science they should use the right words. But the lesson is semantic -- not less important for that, but not more important than that, either.



#28771: — 06/16  at  07:06 PM
Gravatar #6: paperwight — 06/16 at 05:25 PM
I stopped reading Volokh a long time ago, when it became clear that he wasn't even a fake libertarian -- he was always willing to shill for the Republican Fundamentalists and torture apologists.
I've had to stop reading all conservatives, because of intellectual dishonesty. I've had to stop reading a lot of 'liberals' for being naive statists (a law for everything), scientific illiterates (nuclear power, organic food), pacifists, etc. But not all of them. I try to generally support Enlightenment principles, which means, in today's terminology, a mixture of liberal and libertarian things.



#28774: — 06/16  at  07:37 PM
Jeff

"If "proof" means "evidence" in other contexts, that does not compromise Dr. Myers' point(s) that these words are not legitimately interchangeable in science, and that if people write about science they should use the right words. But the lesson is semantic -- not less important for that, but not more important than that, either."

At the link below you can see an extremely paranoid Hugh Holbling suggest that term "scientific fact" is also a dubious one.

http://www.galilean-library.org/blog/?p=90

When the term "fact" is expunged from scientific discourse because it creates less problems for creationists, I'll dump a beer on Holbling's head. For now, I'll satisfy myself with accidentally tipping one into his lap.



#28775: — 06/16  at  07:50 PM
It has been said before: proof is for mathematics, the law and alchohol concentration, The law is concerned about certaincy, not precision, science is concerned about precision, not certaincy.

Drawing on knowledges from a multiplicty of sciences, a mutiplicty of scientists, professionals, engineeers and technicians got two rovers to land pretty close to designated spots millions of miles away on Mars. Theydidit not Goddidit.

Scientists have to say, "We try to figure out how things work." If pressed, scientists have to say, "Deity/ies is/are not the subject/s of our investigations."



's avatar #28776: John M. Price — 06/16  at  08:22 PM
Sorry, PZ - I mentioned this site as vivisecting the Volokh article. (And some comments on other, vacuous comments. Felix likes Johnson - I asked if he'd be used as a surgeon.)

I note also that there is a whole heap of burden shifting going on. Why do they always go that route? Haven't they learned there is no validity to that?



's avatar #28777: Bill Ware — 06/16  at  08:23 PM
One example of where the word proof means test is in the adage, "The exception proves the rule." Proves here means tests.

The mind is so full of such trivial things,
Surely we should all be as happy as kings.



#28779: The General — 06/16  at  08:37 PM
The problem with Volokh and his claim that scientists cannot "prove" that God doesn't exist is that it is completely arbitrary. If the religious want to posit a God who has created the universe (or man), then the burden of proof is on them to provide some evidence for his existence. If they don't (and they never have), we shouldn't grant them any more legitimacy than the guy who claims the invisible gremlin on his shoulder "designed" the universe.



Trackback: Evidence, Knowledge, and Proof Tracked on: Philosophy, et cetera (66.159.239.140) at 2005 06 16 21:12:35
I too get annoyed whenever I see the words "science" and "proof" too closely associated. But I wonder if I'm right to do so - perhaps there is a perfectly acceptable notion of 'proof' which could allow for the uncertainties of science?



#28780: Raven — 06/16  at  09:14 PM
One example of where the word proof means test is in the adage, "The exception proves the rule." Proves here means tests.


Very close, but not exactly the same word--"proves" in King James English is our modern word "probes". The exception probes (or tests) the rule. Although related as cognates, proof(1) != proof(2).

Although it is an interesting case of convergent evolution smile.



's avatar #28781: John M. Price — 06/16  at  09:18 PM
Wow. Reading more of the comments there, wow. We really have let kids down over the last couple of decades. They cannot think.



's avatar #28782: John M. Price — 06/16  at  09:24 PM
Very close, but not exactly the same word--"proves" in King James English is our modern word "probes". The exception probes (or tests) the rule. Although related as cognates, proof(1) != proof(2).


Ever seen the proof mark on the barrel of a firearm? Seen a proof round for that test? It is not a probe and has never been called one in, well, gees, maybe a couple of centuries? (I'd have to look that up.)



#28785: — 06/16  at  10:19 PM
As far as setting boundaries go, shouldn't it be...
Science gets all that we KNOW and religion gets all that we don't know.

That sure screws Science, because the more we know, the more we know we don't know. That means that as science territory grows, religion territory grows more.

Sorry to burst your bubbles.



#28790: Mitchell Freedman — 06/17  at  12:26 AM
I'm not sure I'm defending Eugene Volokh, who is really a smart legal mind despite our political disagreements, but PZ is too harsh here.

While I think literalists who believe the world was created 6,000 or so years ago have nothing left but the silly argument that God made it look like millions or billions of years ago, there is nothing in evolution that makes it impossible to posit the existence of a divine being in every conceivable context. I'll admit it is a smaller set than particular religious extremists would want to see, but it's not inconsequential, either.

As to the larger question of whether science have to put up with creationism and Intelligent Design in the same room of a public school? No, and the answer has to do with testability and experimentation. But let's also admit that every postiion, no matter how strong, including evolution, has a soft underbelly at a particular level--e.g. macroevolution not having as obvious way to test or experiment as microevolution (I know those words macro and micro evolution make most scientists wince, but I find them helpful in this particular context).

In other words, let's not conclude that most religious people are denying their inner atheist if they believe in the scientific theory of evolution.

Oh, and be kind now. Like Eugene, I'm a lawyer, and perhaps unlike Eugene, I'm a hopeless humanities major.



#28791: Martin Wagner — 06/17  at  12:27 AM
Well, Copper, you almost have a point. Religion fills in the gaps where knowledge is lacking, but only among the wilfully ignorant. Someone who really understands how the methods of science work knows just how dishonest it is to make up beliefs and claim they fill the gaps in your knowledge. The only way to address something you don't know is to admit you don't know it, and then determine to find out if you can.



#28793: — 06/17  at  01:06 AM
I'm not sure I'm defending Eugene Volokh, who is really a smart legal mind despite our political disagreements, but PZ is too harsh here.


Wasn't it the same Volokh who said it was a pity we didn't have Iranian punishments? That was the point where I lost all respect for him.

It was the same when Oliver Willis said he didn't care if people at Gitmo was tortured - haven't read him since.



#28794: — 06/17  at  01:17 AM
He's looking hard to find those gaps into which he can wedge his god. It's not easy and no doubt he's frustrated.

TonyB, it's not just the size of the gaps that's unsettling, it's the trend. At the beginning, gods were everywhere. Just a few thousand years ago, there was still room for gods behind every thundercloud. Now they have to scrabble around in the chinks of macromolecules. Following Pinkoski's "pygmies+dwarfs" argument, in a few hours there won't be any room left at all for Them. And tomorrow- God will be occupying negative space, which will become ever larger, until in 6000 years it will be as large as the Universe. And then? Kabloom.



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