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Thursday, June 16, 2005

Volokh's question

Eugene Volokh asks, "Is evolution a threat to religious belief?" His answer is confused, and the more he thrashes around, the more he muddles his argument. He's responding to a post by Michael Shermer that takes Intelligent Design creationism to task, and is specifically reacting to a poll question and some general comments by Shermer that reject the existence of God.

Well, if "the standard scientific theory" is that "God had no part" in the process of evolution -- not just that human beings developed in a particular way, but that God didn't guide this -- then it seems to me that the theory of evolution is a challenge to many people's deeply held religious convictions. And that's so not just as to the young-earthers who believe the Earth was created several thousand years ago, but also to people who are willing to embrace the scientific evidence but see the guiding hand of God in the process.

He's got one thing wrong and one thing right. "The standard scientific theory" does not say anything at all about God. It doesn't say he exists or doesn't, it doesn't even mention him; you can read through book after book, rummage through all the primary research papers in the scientific literature, and his name simply does not come up. I think that's telling in itself, but Volokh is arguing over the wording of some comments in the popular press, not the actual scientific interpretation.

What he has right, though, is that science does challenge religious convictions. Literalism is nonsense; the young earth malarkey is idiocy; any claim of direct, observable divine action in the history of life on earth is extremely dubious and steadily decreasing in probability. The religious are going to have to get used to it. Where reality conflicts with dogma and doctrine, I know what side I'm going to be on.

Although this is the kind of debate on which reasonable people can have an interesting discussion, some things are just annoying and need to be cleanly squashed. Like this:

What's more, how exactly do scientists come to the conclusion that "God had no part in this process"? What's their proof? That's the sort of thing that can't really be proved, it seems to me -- which makes it sound as if scientists, despite their protestations of requiring proof rather than faith, make assertions about God that they can't prove.

Complete drivel. Scientists don't talk about "proof", period. We leave that to the mathematicians. This is something I yell at my freshman biology majors, by the way. I know it's out of the purview of a scholar of constitutional law, but if he's going to make claims about science, shouldn't he know the bare basics of the discipline?

Change the word "proof" to "evidence", and it makes more sense. It's still wrong, but at least he isn't railing against a straw man anymore.

And on top of that, if the standard scientific theory is that "God had no part in this process," then the opponents of evolution are right -- the standard theory of evolution may not be taught in the schools. The Court has repeatedly said that the Establishment Clause bars both government endorsement and disapproval of religion. Teaching that God exists and teaching that God doesn't exist are both unconstitutional in government-run schools. Likewise, if teaching that God created humans is unconstitutional, so is teaching that God had no part in creating humans.

Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary. There goes physics, chemistry, geology, biology…. Volokh is asking us to paralyze our critical thinking facilities lest we contradict religious zealots.

Here's a simple example of the nature of the evidence against any god's role in various processes. Take a coin and flip it a hundred times; you'll get somewhere around 50 heads, and somewhere around 50 tails. You won't see predictable patterns; you can do multiple trials; you can do statistics. All we see are the outcomes of some fairly consistent laws of probability. Now, if you want, you can argue for a rule-bound god that is the laws of probability, and that's one common "out"—that's the kind of pantheistic deity Einstein had in mind.

What would be silly, though, is what the creationists want to do. What they want to argue is the equivalent of saying that in our trial of 100 coin flips, that third one that came up heads and the 87th one that came up tails were willed by God. They have no evidence for the assertion, they just say it is so. Can scientists "prove" that claim is false? No. We can say, though, that it is an unnecessary hypothesis, that the observations all fit within standard probabilities, and that the claimant is going to have to come up with better evidence for an extraordinary claim than voices whispering in his head.

Ultimately what this kind of argument means is that the proponent is favoring a God of the Noise, a deity who slips into random variation and makes minute tweaks, always in balance, so that the net outcome is unbiased. I should think that is even more theologically demeaning than the God of the Gaps.

Now here's what I think Mr. Shermer is driving at by saying that "God had no part in this process" is the standard scientific theory: The standard theory tries to explain how humans might have evolved without calling on God as an explanation. This isn't because scientists can prove that God doesn't exist in any logical or even empirical sense of "prove." Nor is it because assuming that God had no part in the process is more consistent with the facts than assuming that he did have a part in the process; the God assumption is perfecty consistent with the facts. Nor is it even because in some abstract sense omitting God yields the simplest explanation; "God did it" (3 words!) is a much simpler explanation than the theory of evolution.

More drivel. First, do I have to repeat myself on the naive use of the word "prove" again? Second, parsimony is not defined by the number of words behind an explanation, especially not when one of the words is a galumphing mega-colossus like "god". Nor is a vague, superficial consistency of any value: "God did it" is also a consistent explanation of the reality of how kidneys work, I suppose, but you'd damn well better hope your doctor knows something about salt regulation, nephric function, and renal circulation if you're in kidney failure.

I would also add that for a theory to be of any use, details are important. "God did it" does not tell us anything about why we have kidneys instead of salt-secreting lachrymal glands, or what ADH, aldosterone, renin and angiotensin do. So why should anyone settle for such a useless, empty phrase? Why should it be an acceptable substitute for evolution, but not for physiology?

I'm being hard on Volokh, because I think most of his argument is incoherent babble. I do think, though, that eventually he settles on a reasonable conclusion.

In that sense, the theory may be described as "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, and we can explain that without bringing in God's intervention." Many scientists conclude that this explanation makes it more plausible that God had no part in the process. Others may conclude that if there's no evidence supporting the existence of some influence, it's methodologically more useful to assume that the influence doesn't exist until some supporting evidence is found. Still others may use "God had no part in this process" as shorthand for "God had no observable part in this process."

Yes, exactly. There is no evidence for gods of any kind, so it would be exceedingly silly to incorporate them into our theories. There's also no evidence for Cthulhu, Thor, Marvin the Martian, or sentient gas clouds spitting DNA at us. Science doesn't bother with those hypotheses, either, but neither do scientists mince words when someone comes whining that we have to teach our kids about their great theory of Martian Marvintervention—we just say no. Come back when you've got some reasonable evidence.

Until then, we should teach that naturalism and materialism are adequate explanations for worldly phenomena. Does Volokh know that that is what Phillip Johnson and his cronies at the Discovery Institute are actually attacking, beyond evolution? Their goal is to get the supernatural accepted as legitimate forces in science, sans evidence.

In answer to Volokh's question about whether evolution is a threat to religious belief, I'd have to say yes, it definitely is, to most forms of religious belief. But that's because reality is a threat to those same beliefs.


Ophelia Benson makes a similar point: what it's all about is how well our ideas accord with reality.


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Comments:
#28795: — 06/17  at  01:35 AM
Very close, but not exactly the same word--"proves" in King James English is our modern word "probes".

And the same as Modern German "prüfen", Raven, which has only the "probe or test" meaning. It doesn't seem to be wandering in the direction of "prove=substantiate", which is "beweisen".

On the other hand, some language trends are convergent in various languages, and German is always a little behind English- who knows what "prüfen" will mean in fifty or a hundred years?



#28796: — 06/17  at  01:40 AM
Two things:

I never lost respect for Prof Volokh. I just don't feel like I can relate to him any more, on account of the fact that he doesn't seem to have a problem with torturing people, and I do.

The "amazing shrinking gods" trend Zilch identified has received a beautiful and wistful treatment in the work of WB Yeats, who was observing the declining power of the Irish cycles of myth, if anyone is interested.



#28797: Mrs Tilton — 06/17  at  02:15 AM
Without disagreeing with the general tenor of the thread, I think some commenters are reading into Volokh something that isn't there.

I have read a lot of Volokh (albeit almost never over the past few months) and, SFAICT, his stance towards religion might be described as "politely respectful though moderately critical to religion in general; but highly indifferent to it personally". I don't recall having seen him declare expressly that he is an atheist, but at the very least he seems to be (in Jonathan Rauch's wonderful term) an apatheist. He does, of course, identify as a Jew; but in terms of ethnicity/culture/heritage or however one might describe it, not in terms of religious faith.

So I don't think he is much concerned to step up in defence of God. Possibly there is in him, as there is in Gibbon's Roman magistrate, a tinge of that Straussian "religion is nonsense, of course, but it's useful to have the helots believe it" thinking. (Which, BTW, I find even more distasteful than genuine idiotic-but-sincere fundamentalism.) But I cannot say for sure, and would hesitate to level that accusation without proof evidence.



's avatar #28820: PZ Myers — 06/17  at  09:02 AM
I agree. I don't think Volokh is pushing for any particular religion, but is simply pushing wooly-headed arguments for a position he vaguely supports, against a science he doesn't understand. It ain't pretty, but I wouldn't call him a creationist or even a creationist sympathizer.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #28822: Bill Ware — 06/17  at  09:22 AM
zilch,

That's why this "gaps" business is such bad theology. Looking for God in some odd cell structure or function is just pathetic. Either God created everything or god created nothing.

There is either a God of Reality or there's no god at all.



#28825: Stephen M (Ethesis) — 06/17  at  09:35 AM
Volokh is a first amendment scholar, whose main interest is the legal foundation upon which certain approaches can or can not be supported by the state (i.e. taught in state funded schools).

There's also no evidence for Cthulhu -- completely false. There is substantial evidence of Cthulhu as a literary creation fully realized. Now, if I were to criticize this essay on the basis that the evidence for Cthulhu is overwhelming (and it is) -- I'd have missed the point completely since you aren't talking about evidence of Cthulhu as a literary creation but as a functioning "real" god.

You've managed to do the same in your review of Volokh. You have missed, as the commentator noted, that "his stance towards religion might be described as "politely respectful though moderately critical to religion in general; but highly indifferent to it personally". I don't recall having seen him declare expressly that he is an atheist, but at the very least he seems to be (in Jonathan Rauch's wonderful term) an apatheist. He does, of course, identify as a Jew; but in terms of ethnicity/culture/heritage or however one might describe it, not in terms of religious faith." and gone from there to attack him for his analysis which is the sort that judges will follow.

Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary. does not follow from Volokh's conclusions or approach. The question is not whether or not God is unnecessary, but whether or not you teach that God is not.

Ah well. Maybe I should be authoring an essay attacking this one for asserting that there is no evidence for Cthulhu as a literary creation and asserting that the author here assumes that Cthulhu is instead independently exant and that thereby the other traditional gods do not exist? (Take that as mild irony demonstrating the way that you were missing the point, with the implied answer of "of course not").



#28831: — 06/17  at  09:52 AM
If anything is muddled, it's this "critique." Consider:

1. According to Myers, Volokh is wrong in asserting that the "standard scientific theory" includes the claim that God had no part in the process. But Volokh doesn't assert that; he asserts a conditional with that thesis as the antecedent: "if 'the standard scientific theory' is that 'God had no part' in the process of evolution ... , then ...." In fact, Volokh goes on to make it clear that on his view the standard scientific theory does not include the claim that God had no part in the process (thus the scare-quotes).

2. Volokh claims that "if teaching that God created humans is unconstitutional, so is teaching that God had no part in creating humans." From this, Myers infers: "Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary." But this doesn't follow. We can show that many actions have material causes without showing that God had <i>no<\i> part in them. We can show that one billiard ball moved because it was struck by another (a material cause), but if this happens in accordance with a natural law and God instituted that law, then God still has a part in the moving of the first ball.

3. In addition to these muddles, Myers makes two good but fairly minor points: that Volokh should be taking about evidence instead of proof, and that Volokh has the wrong notion of parsimony. But then he concludes that the article is "incoherent babble," which is way too strong given that Myers' only cogent criticisms are these two minor points.



#28833: — 06/17  at  10:01 AM
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=proof

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prove



's avatar #28834: PZ Myers — 06/17  at  10:07 AM
1. Then all we need to state is that his conditional is false. End of argument. So why go on and on about it?

2. The point still stands. As you note, physicists can talk about billiard balls bouncing about with material causes, and no one huffily protests that they need to admit that God might have played some role in it. Why single out evolution? As I said, what biology does is show that the processes in our history have material causes.

Seriously. Why is Volokh singling out biology and not chemistry or physics or geology for his complaint?

3. Your critiques of the critique don't change the fact that Volokh's presentation of those points was pretty well incoherent. As I mentioned, he ends up in a reasonable place, but how he got there was incomprehensible from this article.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28836: — 06/17  at  10:11 AM
I wonder whether Mr. Puryear (Stephen, above) is being serious. His point (1) is misreading through absurd literalism. His point (2) is irrelevant: that some material causes could still be taught doesn't change the fact that Volokh's line of reasoning would doom physics et al. because, by parity of reasoning, they too "teach" that God doesn't exist.

What leads me to think that Mr. Puryear's intervention can't be serious is that he knows full well that a Pitt graduate student would be dropped from the program for writing stuff like this (from Volokh):

"how exactly do scientists come to the conclusion that "God had no part in this process"? What's their proof? That's the sort of thing that can't really be proved, it seems to me -- which makes it sound as if scientists, despite their protestations of requiring proof rather than faith, make assertions about God that they can't prove."

Does Mr. Puryear really want to claim that this isn't a horrendous muddle? I can't believe he does.



#28838: — 06/17  at  10:18 AM
Here's a logical leap:
A. Schools shouldn't teach that God had no part in creating humans.
B. Science of material causes should not be taught.

Yes, such a conclusion would be "drivel" (the poster likes that word), if it was what Volokh actually claimed. But of course, Volokh never went from A to B -- indeed, the blatant misreading is astounding. Religionists may be wrong, but you'd have to have never met one to believe they're all that dumb: to attribute to them the belief that because your parents caused you, God had no part. Or because the rain watered the grass, God had no part. It's either God or material causes, period. That's the logical leap that the poster attributes to Volokh and others.

In fact, though, Volokh's point (which was missed!) is that God may, or may not, have had an ultimate, pre-historic, pre-scientific role in designing or conceiving the physical universe or evolution or whatever. Science has nothing to say on this, because such claims would be extra-scientific and metaphysical; that is, claims about what preceded the present scientific reality or put it in place. Now anyone, religious or not, has plenty to fear from a biology class that goes beyond science to make metaphysical claims about the primoridial presence or absence of a deistic designer (do you do this?). Neither position on such a question belongs in science class. But it's not necessary to most contemporary science. While I don't agree with Volokh said, it would be far better to criqitue him based on a correct comprehension of what he actually said/.



#28839: — 06/17  at  10:19 AM
Stephen writes

"Volokh claims that "if teaching that God created humans is unconstitutional, so is teaching that God had no part in creating humans." From this, Myers infers: "Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary."

Myers makes the same inference that Volokh does.

No teachers are telling their biology students that "God had no part in creating humans."

Volokhs strawman about "if the scientific theory includes the claim that God played no part blah blah blah" is just that: a strawman.

But Volokh does a lengthy dance with the strawman, a dance that is well-known to frighten the rubes and one that appeals to the paranoia of "intelligent design" peddlers.

People who are interested in defending science from religous extremists should work harder at dealing with the facts about creationists and their tactics, rather than engage in sophistry and smoke-blowing in the junkyard of metaphysics.



#28845: — 06/17  at  11:35 AM
To Myers' (1): The conditional was: "if 'the standard scientific theory' is that 'God had no part' in the process of evolution ... then it seems to me that the theory of evolution is a challenge to many people's deeply held religious convictions." Do you really want to deny this conditional? Before it appeared that you only wanted to deny the antecedent.

To Myers' (2): I don't see how the original point can stand, but I agree that evolution and biology shouldn't be singled out in this regard.

To Leiter's (1): I see no reason to think I have misread Myers (or Volokh). In fact, in his reply Myers himself doesn't accuse me of misreading him. Further, If someone asserts "If A, then B" and a critic says, "Ah, but you're wrong, because A is false," why is it "absurd literalism" to correct this?

To Leiter's (2): It is not irrelevant to point out that one of Myers' major criticisms involves a non sequitur, as he now seems willing to admit.

You say that "Volokh's line of reasoning would doom physics et al. because, by parity of reasoning, they too 'teach' that God doesn't exist." But I fail to see how physics, properly understood, teaches (or "teaches") that God doesn't exist. It seems to me that neither physics nor biology "teaches" this.

Also, I deny that I know what you say I know. Even if I were to grant that the passage in question is muddled, I can hardly concede that a Pitt grad student would be kicked out of the program because of writing a few muddled sentences.



#28855: Michael — 06/17  at  12:07 PM
Science is agnostic with respect to the existence of God. It has no evidence for such a proposition, but neither does it have evidence agaisnt it. God, if such a being exists (truth in advertising: I believe, on the basis of what I consider to be sufficient evidence, that one does), is simply outside the frame of reference of science.

Among my other degrees, I have a bachelor's in chemistry. When I work a gas law problem, all I Need to know to be able to do so are the physical parameters: volume of the system, pressure, temperature, and the number of moles of the substance of interest. And the Universal Gas Constant (R). Those pieces of information are sufficient for me to analyze the system and deduce relevant information from it.

Did God have something to do with the behavior of that system? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe that's just the way God set up the universe, or maybe it's a logical consequence of the way it developed. I believe, as a matter of faith, that there was in some sense of the word a creator behind the universe. But that belief does not require me to conclude that God's finger is on the scale of each and every action that occurs in the universe.

The answer I would give to Eugene Volokh is that evolution is in no reasonable sense of the word a threat to religious belief. I would also argue, against PZ and several others here, that authentic religion is no threat to science.



#28856: Michael — 06/17  at  12:09 PM
I can spell, really I can! Strike "agaisnt" in that second sentence, and insert "against" in its place.



's avatar #28857: PZ Myers — 06/17  at  12:14 PM
Define "authentic religion".

Are Baptists "authentic"? How about Mormons, or Jews, or Satanists, or Unitarians?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28869: SweettP — 06/17  at  12:54 PM
God, who looks much like Harry Potter, waves his hand and poof!! the earth magically appears. For the simple minded this is so much easier to believe.

I was watching a HD program that showed Rocky Mountains. All I could thing about was that if god did create the majestic peaks with a wave of the hand it demeans such a great wonder. Nature means absolutely nothing and that's how the religious/creationists have treated the earth.

Looking at the Rockies as taking millions of years to form gave me more of an appreciation for the mountains. I sat awed at the fact that nature took a long time while contemplating the processes needed to form the mountains. From this viewpoint the Rockies had great value.

I guess that's another point of conflict in the science vs. religion debate, how you define value.



#28878: Dr Pretorius — 06/17  at  02:51 PM
One example of where the word proof means test is in the adage, "The exception proves the rule." Proves here means tests.

Very close, but not exactly the same word--"proves" in King James English is our modern word "probes". The exception probes (or tests) the rule. Although related as cognates, proof(1) != proof(2).


Although both interesting, I'm sorry to tell you that both your interpretations are in fact false. First off I'll note that exceptions don't test or probe rules in any reasonable sense (they might, under some readings, be counter examples, but they aren't tests). In the phrase "The exception that proves the rule", "proves" means exactly what it does in normal english usage today (in this context) - namely "demonstrates the existence of".

And actually it's perfectly sensible, as long as you're careful about the word "rule" (which is not, for example, the word 'description', or 'explanation') - it's an inference allowed in legal reasoning. A sign reading "No Parking On Thursdays" would count (you see) as proof that parking is allowed on other days. The fact that an exception is being made demonstrates the existence of something to which it is an exception, in other words. This is not generally applicable, however, only in cases where whatever it is is clearly an exception (because parking being disallowed on Thursday in other cases would not count as bearing on whether or not parking was allowed on Wednesdays).



#28882: — 06/17  at  03:00 PM
Maybe this is a dumb question, but it's about what I think is a really dumb question. Why do we ask non-scientists for their opinions about science? In what meaningful sense do non-scientists even have opinions about science?
I'm not a scientist. What I know of science is what I picked up in school and some reading along the way. In some fields, I have a fair idea of what scientists say about their sciences, but I, of course, have no practical way of judging it. (In theory, I could learn enough science to satisfy myself that what scientists say is actually true, but I haven't the time or energy.) In some fields, I have some sense of what is widely-agreed upon and what is disputed. But I certainly have no basis to side with one contending group or the other. In what sense can I be said to have any "opinion" at all about string theory or punctuated equilibrium? In fact, I don't have an opinion about them, and if asked what I thought I'd have to say: "why are you asking me?"
Nobody ever polls to find out what lay opinion is on any scientific question other than evolution. It may be a politically or sociologically important fact that people have opinions on this scientific topic and no other, but how come nobody seems to notice how odd it is for non-scientists to have opinions on science, let alone to ask about them.



#28883: — 06/17  at  03:00 PM
Michael has lost me (#38). Science, he says, has "no evidence" either for or against the existence of god, but he, himself, has what he considers "sufficient evidence" in favor. Assuming we're not just punning on the word "evidence" here, is there some evidence that is not available to science for some reason?



#28889: — 06/17  at  04:12 PM
Seriously. Why is Volokh singling out biology and not chemistry or physics or geology for his complaint?

Because of the debates over first amendment church/state issues. He is only concerned with if (a) then whether or not (b). In this case, if the particular science teaches the non-existance of god, then (b) it crosses over the church/state divide.

To complain that the person he is citing should not have stated (a) misses the point of his post, which is a loose way of working through the first amendment issues.



#28898: Michael — 06/17  at  05:38 PM
Jeff, the evidence I have for the existence of God is personal and non-reproducible. It suffices to justify my belief, but I can't generalize from that to the rest of the world the way I can with experimental data. If I tell you that I took substance A and substance B and mixed them in stated proportions under a specified set of conditions, and that substance C was the result, in a measured proportion, you could then duplicate the experiment and either find the same substance in the same proportion, or a different substance, or in different proportions--and we would be able to talk about the reaction in a meaningful way because we'd both had reasonably similar experiences and there were objective data to work with.

I could attempt to do that with the evidence I accept in favor of the proposition that a god exists, but unless you had a reasonably similar experience under reasonably similar circumstances, we wouldn't even have a common frame of reference to talk about it, much less objective data.

PZ, the answer to your question is that some members of all the denominations you mentioned (with the possible exception of the Satanists, but then the true Satanist is so rare as to be statistically insignificant) are legitimate. Your average fundagelical type, on the other hand, is not.



#28906: — 06/17  at  06:57 PM
CJ

"Nobody ever polls to find out what lay opinion is on any scientific question other than evolution. It may be a politically or sociologically important fact that people have opinions on this scientific topic and no other, but how come nobody seems to notice how odd it is for non-scientists to have opinions on science, let alone to ask about them."

An excellent point.

Many polls suffer from similar flaws. Part of any poll asking people about their "opinions" on evolution should include asking people some basic questions to determine if they lack understanding of fundamental concepts relating to evolution (i.e., do you believe that DNA can mutate in the absence of human intervention?).

If poll answers that reveal that the person is (scientifically speaking) illiterate are tossed out, the results would probably be quite different.



Trackback: Eugene Volokh doesn't understand science  Tracked on: Fear of Clowns (70.92.163.213) at 2005 06 17 22:54:13
PZ Meyers takes Eugene Volokh to task for commenting on science without understanding something very simple about science which I explained in a few short paragraphs a couple days ago. Meyer's point boiled down to it's core is that the Theory of Evolution is silent on God,



#28922: — 06/17  at  11:03 PM
Michael (#47): It's a peculiar use of the word "evidence," don't you think?



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