Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Thursday, June 16, 2005

Volokh's question

Eugene Volokh asks, "Is evolution a threat to religious belief?" His answer is confused, and the more he thrashes around, the more he muddles his argument. He's responding to a post by Michael Shermer that takes Intelligent Design creationism to task, and is specifically reacting to a poll question and some general comments by Shermer that reject the existence of God.

Well, if "the standard scientific theory" is that "God had no part" in the process of evolution -- not just that human beings developed in a particular way, but that God didn't guide this -- then it seems to me that the theory of evolution is a challenge to many people's deeply held religious convictions. And that's so not just as to the young-earthers who believe the Earth was created several thousand years ago, but also to people who are willing to embrace the scientific evidence but see the guiding hand of God in the process.

He's got one thing wrong and one thing right. "The standard scientific theory" does not say anything at all about God. It doesn't say he exists or doesn't, it doesn't even mention him; you can read through book after book, rummage through all the primary research papers in the scientific literature, and his name simply does not come up. I think that's telling in itself, but Volokh is arguing over the wording of some comments in the popular press, not the actual scientific interpretation.

What he has right, though, is that science does challenge religious convictions. Literalism is nonsense; the young earth malarkey is idiocy; any claim of direct, observable divine action in the history of life on earth is extremely dubious and steadily decreasing in probability. The religious are going to have to get used to it. Where reality conflicts with dogma and doctrine, I know what side I'm going to be on.

Although this is the kind of debate on which reasonable people can have an interesting discussion, some things are just annoying and need to be cleanly squashed. Like this:

What's more, how exactly do scientists come to the conclusion that "God had no part in this process"? What's their proof? That's the sort of thing that can't really be proved, it seems to me -- which makes it sound as if scientists, despite their protestations of requiring proof rather than faith, make assertions about God that they can't prove.

Complete drivel. Scientists don't talk about "proof", period. We leave that to the mathematicians. This is something I yell at my freshman biology majors, by the way. I know it's out of the purview of a scholar of constitutional law, but if he's going to make claims about science, shouldn't he know the bare basics of the discipline?

Change the word "proof" to "evidence", and it makes more sense. It's still wrong, but at least he isn't railing against a straw man anymore.

And on top of that, if the standard scientific theory is that "God had no part in this process," then the opponents of evolution are right -- the standard theory of evolution may not be taught in the schools. The Court has repeatedly said that the Establishment Clause bars both government endorsement and disapproval of religion. Teaching that God exists and teaching that God doesn't exist are both unconstitutional in government-run schools. Likewise, if teaching that God created humans is unconstitutional, so is teaching that God had no part in creating humans.

Then we can't teach anything that shows a material cause for any action, because that would show that God was unnecessary. There goes physics, chemistry, geology, biology…. Volokh is asking us to paralyze our critical thinking facilities lest we contradict religious zealots.

Here's a simple example of the nature of the evidence against any god's role in various processes. Take a coin and flip it a hundred times; you'll get somewhere around 50 heads, and somewhere around 50 tails. You won't see predictable patterns; you can do multiple trials; you can do statistics. All we see are the outcomes of some fairly consistent laws of probability. Now, if you want, you can argue for a rule-bound god that is the laws of probability, and that's one common "out"—that's the kind of pantheistic deity Einstein had in mind.

What would be silly, though, is what the creationists want to do. What they want to argue is the equivalent of saying that in our trial of 100 coin flips, that third one that came up heads and the 87th one that came up tails were willed by God. They have no evidence for the assertion, they just say it is so. Can scientists "prove" that claim is false? No. We can say, though, that it is an unnecessary hypothesis, that the observations all fit within standard probabilities, and that the claimant is going to have to come up with better evidence for an extraordinary claim than voices whispering in his head.

Ultimately what this kind of argument means is that the proponent is favoring a God of the Noise, a deity who slips into random variation and makes minute tweaks, always in balance, so that the net outcome is unbiased. I should think that is even more theologically demeaning than the God of the Gaps.

Now here's what I think Mr. Shermer is driving at by saying that "God had no part in this process" is the standard scientific theory: The standard theory tries to explain how humans might have evolved without calling on God as an explanation. This isn't because scientists can prove that God doesn't exist in any logical or even empirical sense of "prove." Nor is it because assuming that God had no part in the process is more consistent with the facts than assuming that he did have a part in the process; the God assumption is perfecty consistent with the facts. Nor is it even because in some abstract sense omitting God yields the simplest explanation; "God did it" (3 words!) is a much simpler explanation than the theory of evolution.

More drivel. First, do I have to repeat myself on the naive use of the word "prove" again? Second, parsimony is not defined by the number of words behind an explanation, especially not when one of the words is a galumphing mega-colossus like "god". Nor is a vague, superficial consistency of any value: "God did it" is also a consistent explanation of the reality of how kidneys work, I suppose, but you'd damn well better hope your doctor knows something about salt regulation, nephric function, and renal circulation if you're in kidney failure.

I would also add that for a theory to be of any use, details are important. "God did it" does not tell us anything about why we have kidneys instead of salt-secreting lachrymal glands, or what ADH, aldosterone, renin and angiotensin do. So why should anyone settle for such a useless, empty phrase? Why should it be an acceptable substitute for evolution, but not for physiology?

I'm being hard on Volokh, because I think most of his argument is incoherent babble. I do think, though, that eventually he settles on a reasonable conclusion.

In that sense, the theory may be described as "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, and we can explain that without bringing in God's intervention." Many scientists conclude that this explanation makes it more plausible that God had no part in the process. Others may conclude that if there's no evidence supporting the existence of some influence, it's methodologically more useful to assume that the influence doesn't exist until some supporting evidence is found. Still others may use "God had no part in this process" as shorthand for "God had no observable part in this process."

Yes, exactly. There is no evidence for gods of any kind, so it would be exceedingly silly to incorporate them into our theories. There's also no evidence for Cthulhu, Thor, Marvin the Martian, or sentient gas clouds spitting DNA at us. Science doesn't bother with those hypotheses, either, but neither do scientists mince words when someone comes whining that we have to teach our kids about their great theory of Martian Marvintervention—we just say no. Come back when you've got some reasonable evidence.

Until then, we should teach that naturalism and materialism are adequate explanations for worldly phenomena. Does Volokh know that that is what Phillip Johnson and his cronies at the Discovery Institute are actually attacking, beyond evolution? Their goal is to get the supernatural accepted as legitimate forces in science, sans evidence.

In answer to Volokh's question about whether evolution is a threat to religious belief, I'd have to say yes, it definitely is, to most forms of religious belief. But that's because reality is a threat to those same beliefs.


Ophelia Benson makes a similar point: what it's all about is how well our ideas accord with reality.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2435/UxD0EsfV/

Comments:
#28939: Jim Pinkoski — 06/18  at  08:41 AM
Guys, there's a perspective point where science will ultimately be seen as being IMPOSSIBLE for it to exist without the existence of a Creator!

Biology scientists like PZ only "think" that they can ignore the presence of God being involved in the creation of life, and guys like him see it that way because that's how they WANT to see it -- when the truth is that ALL the sciences have a certain point wherein the viewer's conclusion will and MUST switch over to accepting the fact that God DOES exist!

I'd like to hear PZ explain to me how the trillions of cells in my body happen to know how to cooperate with each other to form a complete human being?

Why would a cell in my stomach care one iota about cooperating with the bones in my little toe? How would the cells in my heart know anything about the cornea in my eye? How would the blood cells ever know that they are oh-so-escential to keeping my trillions of cells alive??

How would my cells even know where and when the boundary of my body begins and ends?? Why would those cells ever stop trying to expand that boundary and keep "dominating" more and more space? My cells "biological imperative" is to grow and exist, and the MORE they grow and exist the better the job they've done of conquering "outer" space, right?

Evolution by blind celluar generation would mean that every single cell in my body is vying for DOMINANCE, not to cooperate with other cells that it personally "knows nothing about"! WHY WOULD ANY CELL IN MY BODY EVER WANT TO "COOPERATE" WITH THE OTHER CELLS THAT IT OBVIOUSLY KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT??

The answer is that the Creator God is overlooking the entire process, and God therefore wrote the code in our genes and DNA to put together the trillions of cells in all of our bodies that they would COOPERATE with the overall function of the individual life form! THAT is the reason that my blood cooperates with my toes and my heart cooperates with all the other cells in the body! Because, as the Bible says, "We are fearfully and wonderfully made"!!

(Ha -- I'm still amazed that we can be comprised of TRILLIONS of different cells, yet we all walk around thinking that we are just ONE person!... How's that for a massive overal delusion?!)

The Bible says that God knows EVERYTHING that happens on this planet, He sees even the sparrow when it falls -- so don't kid yourselves, guys, the Creator that put these entire Universe together is watching and observing each and every one of you -- and He stays "out of your way" and seems to be "non-existent" and invisible because He's TESTING you to see if you are safe to let into heaven!

Be arrogant and selfish and keep harping on how He doesn't exist -- bingo, you won't get to go on the trip of a lifetime, i.e., to heaven for the rest of eternity -- be polite and accomodating to the idea of God and OPEN YOUR EYES and see Him all around you, then there's a chance that He will give you eternal life.



#28942: Michael — 06/18  at  10:31 AM
How so, Jeff? The basic (i.e., non-legal) definitions of "evidence" offered by the Oxford English Dictionary are "An appearance from which inferences may be drawn; an indication, mark, sign, token, trace." and "Ground for belief; testimony or facts tending to prove or disprove any conclusion. Const. for, of (the thing to be proved), from, of (the source of testimony). {dag}to have evidence to say, etc.: to have good grounds for saying, etc. (For external, internal, moral, probable evidence, see these adjs.)"

I have had experiences which allow me to draw the inference that a Deity exists and which I consider grounds for my belief that this proposition is a true one. Personal and subjective experiences, yes. But experiences all the same, and in situations where I have no epistemic warrant to believe that my cognitive or perceptive faculties were operating abnormally in any way (i.e., I was not under the influence of mind-altering substances at the time, and was not then--or now--suffering from any diagnosed mental disorders or organic or physical disease states such that I might have reason to think my brain function is or was impaired). On the basis of those facts, I have, I believe a sufficient evidentiary warrant to justify my belief in the veracity of the hypothesis that there is a God.



#28944: — 06/18  at  11:04 AM
Eugene Volokh asks, "Is evolution a threat to religious belief?"
How can anyone doubt that the answer is yes? Since it was proposed by Darwin, evolution is under constant attack by religion. That is enough evidence that people feels very strongly that their religious belief is threatened by evolution.

Apart from feelings, is evolution objectively corrosive of religious belief? We can substitute science for evolution. Is science an enemy of religious belief? To be honest, yes. Firstly, research is debunking case by case phenomena attributed to God, from thunderstorms to "posession" aka mental disease. Religion is steadily retreating in all fronts. Secondly, a basic tenet of all religions is that the world has a purpose, a plan, a sense, a meaning; science finds no point in it. Religion (all religions) provides an explanation why we, humanity, and jaimito personally are here and what is the purpose of what is happening. Specifically, gives sense to my existencial suffering, my life of misery and my coming death. Science, on the other hand, postulates that all that can be explained by natural, mechanical, meaningless, trivial processes, and the hand of blind chance. Life follows no direction (intelligence can increase with time but also can be lost) and has no point at all. The fact that science is effective and works, while religion does not (prayer for example) should be the death sentence of religion.

But religion is far from dying and is fighting back. Maybe both science and religion are in our minds, science resides in the frontal cortex while religion in the older regions. Even if their locations and operation could be determined with precision (and it will be done soon), I think it will do nothing to resolve this long science/religion controversy.



#28946: Raven — 06/18  at  11:12 AM
Sorry for the hard-to-read formatting--for some reason, I can't get blockquote to work.

Dr. Pretorius: "In the phrase "The exception that proves the rule", "proves" means exactly what it does in normal english usage today (in this context) - namely "demonstrates the existence of"."

Raven: I wouldn't consider it normal English usage--it's a contradiction when you use it that way. In other words, you are asserting !A ==> A, where !A is the exception, and A is the rule. If A is a description or explanation, then it makes no sense, as you point out below.

Dr. Pretorius: "And actually it's perfectly sensible, as long as you're careful about the word "rule" (which is not, for example, the word 'description', or 'explanation') - it's an inference allowed in legal reasoning."

Raven: If you restrict "rule" to only the meaning as used in a specialized legal context, you're right--but that's just repeating the same point as PZ's earlier one about "proof" being a strictly legal and mathematical, not scientific, term. On the other hand, the legal meaning has no particular relevance to my work, but I am interested in exploring rules such as the following: Because tigers are mammals, the cells in their vaginal epithelium are expected to show the same regular cyclic changes on exposure to reproductive hormones as human vaginal epithelial cells exhibit (that's my A). Say I then find a tiger who shows a high proportion of parabasals (immature cells) all the way through her cycle (that's my !A). I can't just wave my hand and say oh, well, this unexpected finding proves my hypothesis, all done now. Now I have to go further and explore where the disconnect is--do the tigers really exhibit different changes in response to the same hormones? Or is something different about the hormones and their periodicity that the cells are responding to in the expected way, and I was simply too hasty in assuming the hormonal changes are the same? So how you use it in a narrow specialist domain such as law is an interesting fact, but really reveals nothing about either scientific or everyday English usage.

John M. Price: "Ever seen the proof mark on the barrel of a firearm? Seen a proof round for that test? It is not a probe and has never been called one in, well, gees, maybe a couple of centuries? (I'd have to look that up.)"

Raven: That's interesting, but it's an even more specialized domain than is law, and I don't know anything about it. My original point pertained to Germanic semantics and etymology in modern English.



#28949: Raven — 06/18  at  11:29 AM
for some reason, I can't get blockquote to work


well, duh! it's because I used the "greater-than" character in my littler ASCII "implies" operator, and that messed up all the following tags.

never mind....



#28955: — 06/18  at  12:47 PM
Eugene Volokh asks, "Is evolution a threat to religious belief?"

How can anyone doubt that the answer is yes?

By recognizing the there's more to religion than biblical literalism.

Secondly, a basic tenet of all religions is that the world has a purpose, a plan, a sense, a meaning; science finds no point in it.

Of course it doesn't, but neither does my thermometer. That doesn't mean there is no point or that my thermometer is broken. It simply means that "higher purpose" is outside the scope of thermometers (and science).

Science, on the other hand, postulates that all that can be explained by natural, mechanical, meaningless, trivial processes, and the hand of blind chance.

Wrong. Science may postulate that all that can be explained by natural processes, and chance, but it can say nothing about possible spiritual meanings behind the processes, or whether the 'chance' is truly blind, or whether it's science that's blind to the 'hand' that selects those apparently random results.

Science can say nothing about God, ultimate, purpose, meaning, etc. It's this fact that makes nonsense of Volokh's hypothetical: "if 'the standard scientific theory' is that 'God had no part' in the process of evolution ... , then ...." Another way of putting that would be, "If science is not science, then ...."


Dr. Pretorius:
First off I'll note that exceptions don't test or probe rules in any reasonable sense (they might, under some readings, be counter examples, but they aren't tests).

Why are you assuming that 'exception' means 'exception to the rule'? Why wouldn't it mean 'exception to the general case'? If it does, then "the exception proves [tests] the rule," makes perfect sense, and is, I imagine, a concept familiar to most scientists. The rule may hold in the exceptional case, providing further evidence of its validity, or it may be an exception to the rule, suggesting a need for a more general rule, but either way, the exception has tested the rule.

Zilch mentioned earlier that there is a German word, "prüfen", which means to "probe or test," but the word also has Latin origins, as seen in the Spanish word, "probar," - to test, substantiate, or try. The noun form, "prueba" is a synonym for the English noun, "test." It seems likely that the word originated in a common ancestor of Latin and German. Maybe English inherited both words, and eventually the two -- the German version (prove) and the Latin version (probe) -- evolved different meanings.



#28961: Ophelia Benson — 06/18  at  01:37 PM
That thing about saying proof when you mean evidence drives me crazy - I've jumped up and down about it at B&W several times (and yet people go on doing it! It's amazing!). Journalists do it all the time - they translate - often directly and immediately - they will hear an interviewee say 'evidence' and in reply they will say 'proof' - as if the two were simply interchangeable. It's so basic! The difference between the two is so basic - and yet clearly most people have no clue of that. That's depressing all by itself.



#28962: pough — 06/18  at  02:04 PM
Pinkoski is the Blob and only the Power Of Gourd can reign him in and stop him from CONSUMING US ALL!!!



#28971: — 06/18  at  03:07 PM
That thing about saying proof when you mean evidence drives me crazy


Well Ophelia, in some case it might be a language thing - in Danish the words are the same word ("bevis"), you just use it in different ways, depending on which meaning you want to get across (hi BTW - long time no see).



#28981: Dr Pretorius — 06/18  at  05:59 PM
On the other hand, the legal meaning has no particular relevance to my work, but I am interested in exploring rules such as the following: Because tigers are mammals, the cells in their vaginal epithelium are expected to show the same regular cyclic changes on exposure to reproductive hormones as human vaginal epithelial cells exhibit (that's my A)....

Um, except that isn't a rule. Unless you decide to make up an entirely different sort of meaning for the word "rule" (perhaps by means of some metaphor?) and start using it to mean things like "true generalization", or "explanation of certain facts". But that isn't what a rule is in the first place, so I don't see the point. Even if you were to insist that that was a law of nature, or some such thing, the point is simply that 'laws of nature' are very different things than laws, and than rules. I could also say that the phrase 'finding a needle in a haystack' is misleading in its import, because the haystacks I deal with are ceramic objects I use to hold hot beverages, and finding a needle in one of those would be easy. But that would just be silly posturing.


Why are you assuming that 'exception' means 'exception to the rule'? Why wouldn't it mean 'exception to the general case'?


I assumed this because given the phrase "The exception proves the rule" it's the sensible thing to assume - I could put any number of things the exception is to in there, of course, 'the exception to the general case' is one, but also 'the exception to the thing I made up three days ago and wrote down and stored in a safety deposit box' could work. Assuming that the exception is to the rule has the benefit, however, of elegance if nothing else - it doesn't require us to assume that some necessary part of the phrase has just been left out. And if we just start allowing in any possible thing the exception could be to just in order to preserve an incorrect interpretation....

Finally, look, I'm not just making up this interpretation. You can read more about it here: http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtheexc.html .
Or, if you'd prefer, here:http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_201.html



#28992: Raven — 06/18  at  09:01 PM
I don't see the point...silly posturing.


I agree with you that there's not a lot of point to continuing to discuss this--we simply don't have enough shared vocabulary to communicate reasonably. Your insistence on using terms only in their legal sense, and the lack of relevance of the strict legal sense to how I'm using them means that our languages are pretty much disjunct (to use an analogy from set theory). I prefer to consider it an honest miscommunication, rather than "silly posturing", but YMMV, of course.

Finally, look, I'm not just making up this interpretation. You can read more about it here: http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtheexc.html .
Or, if you'd prefer, here:http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_201.html


Another difference between law and science: appeals to authority are perfectly legitimate in law (codified law, precedents, to name two examples), but in scientific debate, when the authority (the secondary sources you cited) contradict the data (the primary source), you have to go with what the data says, not with what the authority says.

So what is the data? We are discussing the semantics of the Latin maxim "Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis" ('Exception proves (or confirms) the rule in the cases not excepted').

"Prove" here is a translation of "probat", which is 3rd-person singular present from "probare". Examining the etymology of "prove", we find the following:

(Source)
prove: c.1175, prouwe, from O.Fr. prover (11c.), from L. probare "to test, prove worthy," from probus "worthy, good, upright, virtuous," from PIE *pro-bhwo- "being in front," from *pro-, extended form of base *per-, + base *bhu- "to be" (cf. L. fui "I have been," futurus "about to be;" O.E. beon "to be;" see be).


So the meaning of "test" is there in the original Latin, from which the word is derived, and which survives in our cognate word "probe". Your authorities say it isn't; the data says it is. In fact, your first source says:

The common misconception (which you will find in several books, including the Dictionary of Misinformation) is that "proves" in this phrase means "tests". That is *not* the case, although "proof" *does* mean "test" in such locutions as "proving ground", "proofreader", "proof spirit", and "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."


Or, to paraphrase: "'proof' doesn't mean 'test' except where it does mean 'test'"--it's not a particularly convincing argument to say that the semantics are turned off in this one case. They assert that "To convince us that *in this particular phrase* "proves" originally meant "tests", you will have to produce citations as old as or older than these to support your view.". Well, "probare" in classical Latin means "test", and "prover" meant test in Old French as early as the 11th century (data above), and there is no argument that "prove" derives from these words--so where is their proof that the semantics were turned off in exactly this one case and no other?

In the five examples, they use to support their view, the first one suffices to show how we are talking past each other:

1. 1617 Samuel Collins, Epphata to F.T.; or, the Defence of the Bishop of Elie concerning his answer to Cardinall Ballarmine's Apologie 100: "Indefinites are equivalent to universalls especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio figit regulam in non exceptis." [Note that figit rather than probat is here used. Probo can mean any of "give official approval to", "put to the test", or "demonstrate the verity of"; but figo can only mean "fix", "fasten", or "establish".]


Ummm, ok. Because someone else substituted a different word (figit) in 1617, and figit can only be translated in the narrow sense, they use that to argue that "probat" can only be used in the narrow sense, but then helpfully add in their note that probo can mean "put to the test"--isn't that the opposite of what they were arguing?

The rest of the arguments are similar--they are not particularly convincing, and when you look at the primary data, it is clear that no matter what these authorities assert (and how well or how poorly they do so), it is contradicted by the facts in the data itself.

I actually found a lot of other primary data in the OED, but the length of this post is verging on "screed" already, so I'll leave them out, unless anyone really wants to see them.

(on my use of "rule" to mean expectations for tiger Pap smears, based on human vaginal cytology)

Merriam-Webster and the OED both support "generalization" and "operating principle" as a definition for rule. I can cite them at length if anyone is still reading at this point, and is at all interested.

But I agree with you that there is no point, because the difference between the way you use language and the way I do means that our communication is going to continually get bogged down. Frankly, I can't imagine anything more boring than continuing to mine dictionaries to continue this discussion, so if you want to have the last word, I am fine with that; you can go right ahead. I just don't think we have very much common ground for communication at all, although I am willing to believe that you honestly see my use of "rule" as generalization and your use of "haystack" as coffee cup as comparable, and not just silly posturing on your part.



's avatar #28994: — 06/18  at  09:55 PM
exceptio probat regulam The exception proves the rule. (If the case in point were not an exception, there would be no rule.) In Spanish, la excepción prueba la regla means that the existence of a case that contradicts the rule doesnt make or declare void or invalid the same rule. (I am no authority in Latin law, but my roommate at the university read law and I read all his books and went to his classes.) At the risk of offending the presents, I would dismiss the Old German and Old French uses of the world, since these peoples lived at the margins of Roman civilization and their Latin was poor and full of misunderstandings.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#29008: Mrs Tilton — 06/19  at  07:36 AM
Mr Pinkoski,

I rarely reply to creationist commenters in this space, but I shall make an exception for you because I really liked your drawing of the evil dinosaurs attacking the ark.

It's not just 'biology scientists like PZ Myers' who disregard religious explanations in trying to understand the workings of organisms. All biologists do so (or, if they do not, they are no longer doing biology). PZ is an outspoken atheist. Ken and Keith Miller (no relation), by contrast, are committed Christians, albeit from differing traditions (the former is a Roman Catholic, the latter an evangelical). Yet they would agree wholeheartedly with PZ, and disagree very strongly with you, that revealed religion is not a necesssary or even acceptable component of scientific understanding.

All science is about observing the natural world and then applying one's reason to what one observes. As the divine is by definition outside the observable, natural world, it simply doesn't come into play in scientific endeavour. PZ and some of the commenters here think that scientific knowledge makes it likelier one will abandon belief in the divine. The professors Miller would presumably disagree. But they would all agree that beliefs about the divine have nothing to do with garnering scientific knowledge. Many people have heard of Laplace's response to Napoleon, who had asked Laplace why he did not mention God in his Celestial Mechanics: 'Monsieur, I had no need for that hypothesis.' Not as many know that Laplace himself was devoutly religious; but his views on how science is done would not have differed markedly from PZ Myers's.

In the mean time, if you are genuinely curious about how the trillions of cells in your body cooperate to form a single human being (and good for you if you are! It is an astonishing and wonderful thing), may I recommend that you obtain and study a basic text on biology*. You will learn a lot from it. Among other things, you will learn that there is an awful lot we still don't know; but that we have at the same time learned an astounding amount in the space of a few centuries. But although the scientists who added to that knowledge were a mix of believers, atheists and the completely indifferent, their belief or lack thereof had nothing to do with their work as scientists.

* You could start with this one. It's aimed at high school students, but it's also a good jumping-off point for adults without a technical background in biology. And it is co-authored by one of the aforementioned Millers, so you may take comfort in knowing that you are reading the work of somebody who manages to combine a strong belief in the Christian God with a strong commitment to good science.



's avatar #29010: — 06/19  at  08:12 AM
Addendum: exceptio probat regulam- la excepción prueba la regla - means that the existence of a case that contradicts the rule confirms the same rule.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#29012: — 06/19  at  09:26 AM
I think the key thing there is whether the exception has been labelled as an exception. If it has that official status, then by implication there must be an accepted and useful general rule to which it is the notable exception. Semantically the exception proves the existence of the rule. Examples of that sort of thing would be "i before e except after c" and "an before vowels and a before consonants except (some) instances of h".

However, if someone is trying to establish a reliable rule/law as opposed to a general rule of thumb, then a single exception does disprove it from being a rule/law of that sort. Though it might be demoted to being still a usable general rule, such as Newton's version of motion turned out to be when Einstein's exceptional conditions came along. That saving isn't quite the same thing though and also not always the case with prospective "rules".



#29039: — 06/19  at  02:26 PM
What you said, Raven. At the risk of further screedifying upon this topic, I'll just point out that there seems to be some confusion about what is to be established here. Is it:
a) the origin of the phrase "the exception proves the rule", or
b) the meaning(s) of the phrase?

There seems to be no real disagreement about possible answers to b):
1) The legal meaning ("no parking on Thursdays" proves the existence of a rule about parking) which I admit I was unaware of- thanks Dr Pretorius!
2) The logical meaning (the exception tests the rule), and
3) The loopy meaning (jaimito's "contradiction to rule confirms rule")

Now, both 2 and 3 are commonly used, and apparently some people use 1 as well. I don't think there's any point arguing which of the three is "correct" if they are all current and understood. 1 and 2 do have the advantage of being logical. 3 is just silly, but so what? Speaking of which, words change in meaning, depending on when and by whom they are used. A "rule" is one person's "law", another person's "generalization", and "silly" once meant "blessed". If one argues that the only "true" meaning of a word or phrase is the oldest usage, we're in trouble...

As to a), the question of origin- while it's certainly plausible that the first usage of the phrase in English was in the legal sense, the link given doesn't make a convincing case for it IMHO. Four of the five citations do not contain the English phrase "the exception proves the rule", and the meaning of the one that does is not at all clear:
1664 John Wilson, The Cheats, To Reader: "For if I have shown the odd practices of two vain persons pretending to be what they are not, I think I have sufficiently justified the brave man even by this reason, that the exception proves the rule."

As far as I can see, the jury's still out on the origin of our phrase, and the modern meaning is usually clear from context.



#29131: David Nieporent — 06/20  at  03:32 PM
Skipping past the etymology discussion, back to Volokh.

The problem here with the criticism of his post is that his critics aren't reading it. Rather, they're so busy trying to show their intellectual superiority over those rubes who believe in religion that they assume that anybody who doesn't simply say, "Religious people - Wacko. End of discussion." must be trying to advance some kind of religious agenda. But, as someone above noted, Volokh is likely "apatheist" (I love that term) if not atheist. He is not trying to argue for I.D. or the like.

What he is doing is responding to a specific post by Michael Shermer. (That's, PZ, why he's "singling out biology." Because he's responding to Shermer's post, which did.) The claim that science denies any role for god is not a "strawman," Bruce; Shermer said it.

The "muddle" is not from Volokh, but from Shermer, and the Gallup poll Shermer references. Volokh is simply walking people through it. He's pointing out that if science said what Shermer mistakenly claimed it said, then it would be incompatible with many people's religion. He then explains why. Then he points out that Shermer's phrasing was wrong, and explains what he should have said.



's avatar #29224: — 06/21  at  05:51 AM
The "muddle" is not from Volokh, but from Shermer, and the Gallup poll Shermer references.
No, the muddle is from their fear of thinking clearly and talking plainly.
In answer to the question about whether evolution is a threat to religious belief, I'd have to say yes, it definitely is, to most forms of religious belief. But that's because reality is a threat to those same beliefs.
PZ dixit.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#29256: — 06/21  at  09:44 AM
To Stephen:
As you say, to assert a conditional with a false antecedent is not necessarily to assert a falsehood (though it may be, depending on the kind of conditional). But an assertion may fairly be criticised on grounds other than its truth or falsity. Imagine a conditional that began "if the standard scientific theory is that the earth is flat, ..." and then went on to state what would indeed follow from that hypothesis. Perhaps the conditional is true. But to assert it would be to say something quite uninteresting and, depending on context, misleading -- both of which are faults distinct from that of asserting falsely.



#29487: — 06/23  at  08:06 AM
I can't resist adding one more quote to this thread, because it combines an example of the kind of thing that evolution can explain, and religion can't, and "that phrase" used in yet another sense (if I'm reading it correctly):
A South American electric fish such as Gymnotus is remarkably similar to Gymnarchus, its African opposite number, but there is one revealing difference. Both have a single long fin running the length of the midline, and both use is for the same purpose. They can't throw the body into the normal sinuous waves of a swimming fish because it would distort their electrical sense. Both are obliged to keep the body rigid, so they swim by means of the longitudinal fin, which waves sinuously just like a normal fish should. It means they swim slowly, but presumably it is worth it to get the benefits of a good clear signal. The beautiful fact is that the Gymnarchus has its longitudinal fin on its back, while Gymnotus and the other South American electric fish, including the electric 'eel', keep their longitudinal fin on their belly. It is for such cases that 'the exception that proves the rule' was coined.

- Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale, p. 203



Page 3 of 3 pages « First  <  1 2 3

Next entry: Great glowing cocks

Previous entry: Torture, PowerLine Style

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college