Pharyngula

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Wednesday, December 07, 2005

Vox gets vile, again

Oh, jeez. Now Vox Day is making excuses for rape.

Actually, he's making a very convoluted argument that rape is only evil if the woman is chaste and Christian. Being pagan or Muslim means you don't get to complain about rape, nor can you protest if you have had sex outside of marriage.

To put it more clearly [Vox Day? Clear? Heh.], if a woman consents to extramarital sex, she is committing a moral offense which is equal to that committed by the man who engages in consensual sex with her, or by the man who, in the absence of such consent, rapes her. Christianity knows no hierarchy of sins. Since only the woman who is not entertaining the possibility of sex with a man and is subsequently raped can truly be considered a wholly innocent victim under this ethic, it is no wonder that women who insist that internal consent is the sole determining factor of a woman's victimization find traditional Western morality to be inherently distasteful.

I find Vox Day to be a thoroughly creepy and amoral creature, one I wouldn't trust within a thousand yards of my female relatives. I think he's twisted and insane, and hope he remains a fanatical Christian—the only thing that's keeping him on a leash seems to be his belief in a punitive deity.

He has this bizarre notion that atheists are necessarily amoral themselves, based on fallacious assumptions about how people operate when they aren't under the illusionary thumb of a god:

And while "might makes right" is the true essence of atheist amorality, it is not exactly the most convincing means of attempting to assert the moral evil of the rapist. As for Utilitarians in a demographically declining West, it is quite easy to make numerous cases for the inherent common good of rape on societal and social Darwinist grounds that are more powerful than the comparatively nebulous cases to the contrary.

This is so wrong. Most atheists don't base their morality on "might makes right"; it's based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you…an idea that's older than Christianity. I do not rape because I would not want to be raped, and I have empathy for other human beings.

Empathy is a very human thing, and if I had to, I could even rationalize it biologically as an extremely useful capacity for individuals living in social groups. I don't have any problem justifying morality on utilitarian grounds, either.

I'm also beginning to see one virtue to religion: as a shackle for psychopaths.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/3521/inVBovwW/

Comments:
#52714: — 12/07  at  05:46 PM
"Christianity knows no hierarchy of sins."

Agnostic to Vox: talk to an informed person about the concept of 'mortal sin'.



#52717: — 12/07  at  05:56 PM
"And while 'might makes right' is the true essence of atheist amorality"

"the only thing that's keeping him on a leash seems to be his belief in a punitive deity."

Whose morality seems to be "might makes right"?



#52718: — 12/07  at  05:59 PM
Paying attention to someone who is obviously just acting out only strokes their ego, ya know. 'Nuff said.



#52720: — 12/07  at  06:05 PM
I think that there are a lot of folks who hold to a religious creed because they think they'd be monsters without it - and most of them are wrong. They're just folks, with good ideas as well as bad, and an exaggerated sense of their potential depravity. A creed that didn't feed their fears would let them function about as well as anyone.

Now someone who can construct an argument like Vox Day may very well need the extra constraints.



#52721: — 12/07  at  06:13 PM
As further evidence of his misogyny, VD also is on record as thinking that women shouldn't have the vote. I'm sure he has some very intelligent, Christian reason for thinking this.



#52722: — 12/07  at  06:21 PM
I think he's twisted and insane, and hope he remains a fanatical Christian—the only thing that's keeping him on a leash seems to be his belief in a punitive deity.

Yeah, that's the same thing I point out to eanyone who, upon learning of my lack of belief in God, asks: "Well, then, what keeps you from robbing a bank or killing yourself?"

Creepy bastards. I'm going to start keeping the FBI on speed-dial.



#52726: pdf23ds — 12/07  at  06:34 PM
While I concur on the creepi-creepiness of Vox Day, I really do think that "Well, then, what keeps you from robbing a bank or killing yourself?" is a valid question for an ignorant Christian to ask an atheist. Their moral system is based on their god. If they have no other experience with other moral systems, then they really don't know what your morals could be based on. They're just asking what your moral system is. It doesn't occur to them that the Golden Rule isn't a purely Christian precept. But this requires quite a bit of ignorance, and Vox Day has no excuse to be ignorant.

On the other hand, there are a lot of informed Christians who think that naturalistic moral systems necessarily fail compared to Christian morals. Usually this is based on the line of argument that "might makes right, and God is almighty, QED." I presume this is pretty much where Vox Day stands. And so it's kind of funny that he would criticize "might makes right" as an atheistic morality, when he really believes the same thing.



#52727: — 12/07  at  06:42 PM
Vox Day is a genuine sicko, but he's not unique.

There are more than few self-identifying "Christian" blogs where you can encounter folks like Vox who, if you ask simple questions about the depths of their fanaticism, will admit that if it weren't for their belief in eternal hell, they would blow your brains out.

Praise Jesus, I guess.

Let's face it. A greater percentage of the people who cheered when we bombed the shit out of Baghdad were evangelical Christians versus the percentage of people who marched against the war.

Does that say something about evangelical Christians as a group?

Of course it fucking does. Anybody who claims otherwise is living in denial.



#52728: — 12/07  at  06:47 PM
pdf

" I really do think that "Well, then, what keeps you from robbing a bank or killing yourself?" is a valid question for an ignorant Christian to ask an atheist."

Um, sure, except most questions about any topic are valid from the perspective of an ignorant person, regardless of their religion.

I agree with you that Vox Day has less excuses than your average high school dropout from rural Kentucky who gets all his information from MSNBC.

Vox Day has no excuses, frankly. He's willfully morphed himself into a diseased horse's rectum.



's avatar #52729: — 12/07  at  06:50 PM
"I don't have any problem justifying morality on utilitarian grounds, either."

Nope. Last I heard, in zero sum repeated games 'tit-for-tat' is a good strategy. Of course, many social interactions are not close to zero sum and repeated, but I can imagine that enough are that it is a good start if you don't know enough about the certain 'game' you participate in.

"I'm also beginning to see one virtue to religion: as a shackle for psychopaths."

From evil psychopat to fundie sociopath, not much improvement. grin



#52731: buck — 12/07  at  06:58 PM
I'm also beginning to see one virtue to religion: as a shackle for psychopaths


aw c'mon dr.myers...we can't have our favorite outspoken atheist go all soft in the head like that. grin

i suspect a theistic framework of morality would be as ineffective a deterrant as abstinence-only contraception...else religions wouldn't have to invent sin-absolving techniques like messiahs and hail-marys in order to stay in business



#52732: — 12/07  at  07:00 PM
Minor nit pick with Vox Day (cause I can't stomach the rest...)
"Christianity knows no hierarchy of sins."

My 12 years of Roman Catholic schooling says otherwise... Sins are venial (sp?) or mortal.

Still remember the classic debate on the nature of sin, and level there of, at 8 years old. (e.g. If I forgot it was Friday and ate the hot dog and the remembered afterword.)

Oh wait, fogot... R.C. isn't really a christian religion is it? (Unless you need their votes.)

sigh...



#52736: decrepitoldfool — 12/07  at  07:15 PM
I prefer the less-invasive Silver rule: "Do not do to others what you would not have them do to you." The Golden rule has given rise to lots of badly-formed altruism.

Not that I am never altruistic; I just don't kid myself about why.

Bottom line, I am a (Scary! Ooga-Booga!) atheist and I still have a moral framework within which I make such decisions. Some assembly required, no god required. It always bugs me when religious people don't even try to imagine a morality other than one based on fear.



#52737: John Wilkins — 12/07  at  07:19 PM
Literal shackles for psychopaths work better than religious ones.

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



#52743: — 12/07  at  07:39 PM
We evolved morality, biologically and culturally, like we evolved everything else.



#52746: — 12/07  at  07:46 PM
women who insist that internal consent is the sole determining factor of a woman's victimization find traditional Western morality to be inherently distasteful
I got lost in that bit.

1. Is internal consent about forgetting to tell the man yes or no at all? Or saying no and meaning yes (or vice versa)? Or is it about different types of sexual practice? Or what?

2. Is traditional Western morality the one where you shoot the Indians, steal their land and can rape their squaws if you want to? OK I didn't actually think that the first time round! But I didn't know if it meant Christianity being distasteful to Islam, Hindu and Chinese people and perhaps Russians. Or whether VD was talking about some fantasy version of California hippy free love being distasteful to some Christians (Christianity being really a middle-eastern rather than western tradition). Or that the amount of equality which traditionally existed in some celtic (or other pagan) tribes was offensive to the invading Christians. Or that cutting out people's hearts and tossing the bodies aside or burying them under buildings was offensive to the rampaging Christian spaniards.

Are those original terms standard code of some sort to you Americans; so that you all know what they mean, without a translation guide or recourse to any basis in reality.



#52748: — 12/07  at  07:48 PM
"Nope. Last I heard, in zero sum repeated games 'tit-for-tat' is a good strategy."

If I remember my game theory right (it's been a while), tit-for-tat was made famous as the solution for iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, a non-zero sum game. Additionally, tit-for-tat is morality. It says that I will cooperate until you screw me. Then, I will retaliate. Afterwards, I will quickly forgive and cooperate again until you screw me again. That's pretty much standard morality as I understand it. Do I not remember this correctly? I think that PZ has an excellent shot at providing evidence for the utility of morality (not that he'd be the first).



#52750: Jeff Fecke — 12/07  at  07:54 PM
Once more, with feeling:

Ted "Theodore" Beale is batshit crazy. He's a complete fucking loon. The difference between Vox and your average schizophrenic is that at least when they're on the right medication, the schizophrenic realizes the voices aren't real.

If not for God, Vox would be an active psychopath, instead of just the fantasizing psychopath he is. So...I guess, score one for religion. Then again, if not for God, Ted "Theodore" Beale would've challenged the wrong guy (or gal) at the wrong time, and he'd be dead now. So I guess it's a wash.

Vox dementum est Vox Day.



#52751: Orac — 12/07  at  08:05 PM
Gee, I wonder how long before he refers to PZ as "pharyngirla," his usual favorite insult to be calling someone a "girl."

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#52753: Lemony — 12/07  at  08:11 PM
SEF, i think he seems to be arguing that since we base our governmental systems and the moral basis of our judicial systems on tacit consent, that tacit consent should also apply to inter-personal relationships. That does seem to rather ignore the reasons for introducing the notion of tacit consent in the first place - since in inter-personal relationships, we should always be able to give informed, explicit consent barring something inhibiting our ability to reason or scommunicate. I don't know what could possibly do that though, it's not like anyone ever gets too drunk to speak, right?

oh well, nothing new in chauvinism masquerading as informed opinion...



#52754: — 12/07  at  08:24 PM
VD's whole debating style seems to be to create cartoonish fantasy characterizations of all of his 'enemies', and then to attack these characterizations. In addition to his predictable notion that nonreligious people can of course not possess anything like morality, check out where he zings through his litany of stereotypes of other religions. Since he has to convince people that only his brand of Western Protestant Christianity is valid, he comes up with some truly ludicrous thumbnail characterizations of nonwestern religions that look like they came out of some David Limbaugh book he read.

This witlessness would be bad enough, but then juxtapose it with his incredibly pompous writing style and his utter conviction that every piece of nonsense he pulls out of his ass is a timeless eternal truth. It's really a repellent, depressing combination.



#52761: Jason Malloy — 12/07  at  08:51 PM
Can we stop paying attention to Vox Day? Its not like we write a rebuttal and grant a link everytime someone posts something on StormFront.

it's based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

Hmm, even the GR seems oversimplified to me. Not all people want to be treated the same way as everybody else, e.g. someone who likes loud heavy metal music at all hours might have neighbors that feel differently. Maybe "greatest good for the greatest number" is better. But then how do we define what's "good"? Subjective reports might work, but even simplified as such, that's pretty weak. Subjective reports tell us that Nigerians are happier than Scandinavians but nevertheless we work to make the conditions of the former like those of the latter and not vice versa.

When it gets right down to it, ethical reasoning is much more challenging, broader, complex, and subtle than anything found in crude, cruel* and ancient religious texts or especially the paradoxical assertions of modern apologists based on the Euthyphro contradiction.

Here's Michael Martin with more:

"Atheism, Christian Theism, and Rape (1997)
Michael Martin"

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin


* Jesus Christ was a monster not a moral philosopher. How else to describe someone who threatens "eternal suffering" to those who don't believe in his insulting fairytale assertions about his own "God"hood?



#52763: — 12/07  at  08:53 PM
What everyone has said, plus Theodore's arguement that rape is a property crime at best. If property is held in common as it is in godless communist America, then it's no crime at all. Ladies, run, don't walk, from any man who expresses such an opinion. (preferably after giving him a swift kick where his balls would be if he had any.)



#52764: Lemony — 12/07  at  08:53 PM
I'd be interested to see his actual arguments in support of rape from a Kantian or Utilitarian perspective, does anyone happen to have a link to any?

It strikes me that rape is actually the archetypical violation of the second formulation of the categorical imperitive, that man is an end in himself and is not to be used as a means in other people's schemes. How can rape be anything other than the use of a victim for the satisfaction of the rapist?

Anyhow, I'm pretty new to all of this, maybe I'm missing some strand of his argument.



#52766: — 12/07  at  09:04 PM
Somehow, after hearing tonight's NPR story on Iraqi honor killings, this all seems of a point.

Hideous. Absolutely hideous.



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