Pharyngula

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Thursday, January 13, 2005

Wanna see James and Cheri Bogart humiliate themselves?

I don't want to, myself, and I read this op-ed by James and Cheri Bogart and just cringed. That it is terribly bad and grossly wrong is just to be expected of a pro-Intelligent Design creationism article, but these two just set themselves up for a terrible and embarrassing fall. Their first paragraph pompously announces,

We, as two trained, field experienced scientists, wish to clarify these issues.

They then proceed to demonstrate their incompetence with a serious of trivially false claims. They want to claim that there is a simple, strict hierarchy of legitimacy for scientific ideas, from hypothesis to theory to law, and they just mangle every concept on the way.

If public humiliation and absurd pratfalls make you squirm, don't read the link above, and stop right now.

First, look at how they define "theory".

A theory is an assumption based on limited information (also known as a conjecture).
Thus a “theory” is not a fact and is not even close to being one.

Honestly, this does not correspond to any definition of the term I've ever read. I suspect it came from the creationist dictionary.

Larry Moran's Evolution is a Fact and a Theory FAQ contains a better summary of the scientific consensus on what "theory" and "fact" mean, and cites several solid authorities on the topic.

  • Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. (Gould)
  • In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." (Futuyma)

The Bogart's first paragraph is a declaration of their competence and authority, and their second paragraph is a collection of bone-headedly wrong definitions that belie the first. I read that and thought to myself, "they can't possibly have actually written that, can they?" and re-read it a few times. It's unbelievable. And it gets far, far worse.

If humans evolved from the lower primates (chimps, monkeys and gorillas), then where are the “in-between” specimens? Where are the chimps that can use verbal language? Where are the chimps that can reason well enough to negotiate the price of an item? Where is the chimp that understands sarcasm and jokes? All of these intermediate specimens are missing from the evidence. Yes, we can find fossils of something that looks similar to both humans and the lower primates, but if they were superior to the chimps, then why are they gone while the chimps remain?

That's right, these two "trained, field experienced scientists" have just committed the infamous "Why are there still monkeys?" error. It requires a complete failure to grasp the simplest concept of evolution to push this idea. It's been shot down on Talk.Origins, and even the creationists at Answers in Genesis recognize its fallacy. And the claim that there are no transitional forms is simply a bald-faced lie.

They can't stop there, either…they drag out the tired Second Law of Thermodynamics argument.

Couple this serious gap in the data to support evolutionary theory with the fact that the theory itself actually violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That law basically states that all things tend to move from an ordered condition to a disordered condition. Evolutionary theory requires that a “more ordered” being be the offspring of “less ordered” beings, which indeed opposes the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

This is a misrepresentation and misuse of the law; if their interpretation was correct, we could never have babies, and we could never grow and develop. There's a FAQ on this one, too.

After that long interlude in Bizarro World, our two brave authors then reassert their authority.

We are both scientists and we both are Christians who lean toward the ID theory as being more plausible because there are just too many flaws in the data used to support evolutionary theory. Many scientists have been misleading people by offering conjecture as fact. [talk about self-fulfilling prophecy…pzm] The Dover school board is therefore quite justified in its efforts to offer both theories in its district’s classrooms.

James Bogart is a part-time college instructor and Cheri Bogart is a biologist.
Well, James Bogart is a part-time instructor (in mechanical engineering—another data point for the Salem Hypothesis!) at York College, but Cheri Bogart has a Bachelor's Degree in biology from Shippensburg University. The bio faculty at Shippensburg might be squirming a bit at this letter, too. It's nearly word-for-word wrong, and shows that neither of them understand fundamental concepts of science, let alone have any competence in evolutionary biology.


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Comments:
#13172: a clockwork bluejay — 01/13  at  10:04 AM
I have a BA in History, but I would be the last person to call myself an historian. Does a Bachelor's in Biology make one a biologist?



's avatar #13176: Ben — 01/13  at  10:26 AM
Thus a “theory” is not a fact and is not even close to being one. A theory that holds up to all scrutiny eventually becomes a “law.” Letters have erroneously stated that “gravity” is a theory. It is not a theory — the concept is called the Law of Gravity and is called so because it has been proven to be true everywhere in normal space. We have many such laws: Coulomb’s law (electromagnetism), Ohm’s Law (electricity), the First, Second and Third Laws of Thermodynamics, and the list goes on. These laws have been proven to be true without exception. Several of these laws have been used together to predict the existence of planets many light years from earth with astounding accuracy. This was only possible because the concepts applied were scientifically proven as laws.

EEK! They have degrees? I would've balked at that paragraph in 3rd grade.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#13178: — 01/13  at  10:29 AM
Arrgh. I design filing cabinets, and I could tear their arguments apart, and yet, because the word "biologist" appears in conjunction with the name of the authors, the lay public will find it credible. We're freaking doomed.

did



#13180: Michael Buratovich — 01/13  at  10:32 AM
Based on their definition of theory, it seems that you could just as well substitute the word "guess." I find it highly unlikely that these two fine specimens would take Newton's theory of gravitation as a guess when they are climbing a canyon side or flying in an aeroplane.

Is the theory of relativity as good a guess as our own guesses of who shot Kennedy? It is a specious definition of a theory. If theories were guesses then my guess should be as good as your guess and the data be damned!

If PZ's latest Development paper (which was a pretty fine piece of work if I might add) was all a cache of guesses, then why all the experiments? Why all the data generation, testing and reasoning that goes with such work? A guess is a start but if you want to present it to the scientific community, you had better have some experiments to back it up. Even then it won't be a theory. Theories are much more rigorously testged and vindicated before they become recognized as such. Furthermore, a theory must have some sort of application wider than the original context in which it was first presented. Otherwise it is just a generalization of some sort that only applies to your experimental system. If we take the Bogart's definition of a theory then the entire scientific enterprise is threatened and unworkable. We should go back to the Aristotelian days and be armchair intuitionists.



's avatar #13185: Ben — 01/13  at  10:46 AM
Can someone write in and ask the Bogarts exactly how many times a theory holds up to scrutiny before it becomes a law so I can write it on the back of my hand once and for all? I think it's in the low 9000s/1500 days, whichever comes first, but I need the integer. I'm working on this theory about red cars and bad driving, and I'm already in the 6000s. Fingers crossed Ben's Law will be ready in time for the Nobels next year!

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



#13186: — 01/13  at  10:48 AM
I can't believe what I just read. That's incredible. PZ, are these people prominent amongst the ID community, or did they just pop up for this op ed? I can only see gross incompetence or deliberate falsehood to explain them. The Second Law claim is, I think, the most offensive. Creationists have "wiggle room" when it comes to the definition of "theory"...it's fairly easy for their audience to ignore the scientific definition or convince themselves that we're changing the definition.

But the Second Law claim is one of those rare few where we can provide crystal clear, absolute, easy-to-understand refutations. Discussing that claim is one of the few places I've been able to give hardened creationists pause, especially since they greatly prefer absolutes. With other claims they can convince themselves that it's too vague, that I've distorted or misinterpreted facts and evidence, but thermodynamics is so compact and easy to explain and visualize that most anyone can "get it" when explained. That they have failed, apparently, to do so... Wow.



#13187: Evan Murdock — 01/13  at  10:49 AM
I get frustrated by the second law argument - If we believe that increasing complexity cannot occur, haven't we just disproved the existance of jumbo jets?

But of course, Design allows us to break the second law, in the same way that it allows us to ignore gravity.



#13196: Bryson Brown — 01/13  at  11:43 AM
It's an ugly mess-- grossly overstate your qualifications, then grossly misrepresent the facts, and draw the fore-ordained conclusions. Wait a minute-- isn't that the recipe for Republican politics in general? Do you think they could have learned it from the creationists?



#13197: — 01/13  at  11:45 AM
Someone pointed out that they plagerized the definition of theory, taking the the third definition (common use), even though the first definition (scientific use) was appropriate (I don't have the source in front of me...they used an online dictionary, Radom House, I think...Maybe Nick or someone can provide more complete information on the dictionary & who pointed out the plagerism). The astounding incompetence shown by the Bogarts' piece makes one wonder about the policy governing who may write extended opinion pieces.



#13198: monkey — 01/13  at  11:45 AM
even the courts are talking about what a theory is:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/13/evolution.textbooks.ruling/index.html
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A federal judge in Atlanta, Georgia, has ruled that a suburban county school district's textbook stickers referring to evolution as "a theory not a fact" are unconstitutional.
In ruling that the stickers violate the constitutionally mandated separation between church and state, U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ruled that labeling evolution a "theory" played on the popular definition of the word as a "hunch" and could confuse students.



#13199: Hank Fox — 01/13  at  12:08 PM
Re: the Second Law issue:

Standing at the edge of a stream, I've noticed that though most of the water flows downhill, SOME of it flows briefly uphill -- in eddies. Standing at the base of a waterfall, you can get splashed by water that rises well above the level of the streambed that the waterfall flows into. In both cases, the downflow of the larger mass of water is the engine that drives some small part of it to rise against gravity to a briefly higher energy state.

As to randomness, I've seen pine needles on the surface of a puddle line up in orderly, almost artistic, patterns -- despite the fact that they must have fallen into the water in an utterly random way.

Even a scientific duffer like me can see that there's no absolute necessity for things to proceed without exception toward randomness and lower energy states. I kinda like to think of living things as eddies, standing waves that develop in the constant downflow of solar energy. The sun loses energy constantly, but for a brief cosmological moment, we get to be alive here in our little planetary backwater. (I lack the science to back up the idea, but I'm nagged by the suspicion that life is somehow almost a NECESSITY of entropic flow.)

I'd love to talk to the Bogarts briefly, actually. Not to try to convince them of anything, but to try to figure out if they're consciously, deliberately lying, or just ... muddled.

It would be great if there was a talk show on television that would invite people like that on, and ... not really trounce them, so much, but just show the AUDIENCE that they're wrong, and how. Something aimed at young people.

A kind of Watch Mr. Wizard / Don Herbert for the creeping-fundamentalist age.

Hmm. Dr. Myers, if you ever decide to switch careers ...

(BTW, I've just read that George Soros and a small group of billionaires are gearing up to put a LOT of money into reversing the neo-con trend. Hint, hint.)



#13202: monkey — 01/13  at  12:25 PM
one of the mechanical engineering professors at my school who teaches thermo does a lecture on how the second law disproves evolution.

it bothered me, so i went and talked to the ME chair and he turned out to be a big old fundie who supported this.

how is it that these people teach engineering and can get away with pushing their beliefs on students as fact? and how can i, a lonely undergrand, counter? its hard to converse with someone who has a phd and can argue over your head.



#13204: monkey — 01/13  at  12:32 PM
that's lowly undergrad. coffee still kicking in.



#13208: paperwight — 01/13  at  12:42 PM
I think Hank is referring to this.



#13210: — 01/13  at  12:50 PM
Monkey, is your school a public school? If so, I would petition the president of the school to make sure that practice is changed. If it is a private school, I would also petition the president on the grounds that the ME prof is incompetent, since he apparently does not understand the 2nd Law.

Regarding the 2nd Law, I think part of the problem arises from an effort to express what it means in an intuitive way.



#13211: — 01/13  at  12:59 PM
http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/thermo.html

discusses the 2nd law and how it relates to christianity.



#13212: — 01/13  at  12:59 PM
how can i, a lonely undergrand, counter?

Maybe you could bring in the expertise of someone in the biology department?

Unless, of course, you attend Liberty University...

smile

BTW, on what basis does he/she "prove" that evolution is not allowable (in a causally closed universe)?

Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

-Jerry Garcia



#13213: — 01/13  at  01:02 PM
I have submitted a detailed reply to Scott Fisher, the Op-Ed editor at the York Daily Record. He indicated he may publish it. In the reply I pointed out that most of the Bogart's arguments are ones that Answers in Genesis says should not be used anymore. See their web document, "Answers we think creationists should NOT use." Hopefully using creationists to refute creationists will be effective.



's avatar #13218: PZ Myers — 01/13  at  01:13 PM
Very good.

I really am appalled at how awful that letter is, how far it is from standard scientific definitions, and how outright dishonest and ignorant. Somebody also ought to tell the biologists at York that one of their engineering colleagues is embarrassing the hell out of their college.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#13220: monkey — 01/13  at  01:16 PM
ah, the downside of attending a public school in texas. the vast majority of my profs are christian republicans. they can be seen handing out bibles before classes and leave religious pamplets in the bathroom stalls. i think i will play along and see if i can weezle a copy of the lecture to post later.

i have a friend who just recieved a masters in forensic anthropolgy who wanted to present a counter arguement to this professor to the engineering society i am president of. but my facualty advisor said it would create controversy that was unneccesary.



#13224: — 01/13  at  01:25 PM
Monkey, if you were up to a little controversy in your personal life you could inform the president of the school that you intend to bring suit to stop the teaching of religion in ME classes. I admit that I probably would not have done that as an undergrad, and probably not as a graduate student. It's easy for me to suggest it, and harder for you to do it, but I would certainly admire you if you did.



#13225: — 01/13  at  01:26 PM
"they ... leave religious pamplets in the bathroom stalls." That sounds like something I would do if someone handed one to me.



#13227: monkey — 01/13  at  01:30 PM
mark- i usually just gather them up and throw them away.
as for the controversy, unfortunately i may need these same profs come graduation time to get a job. so i keep as low a profile as possible.



#13228: — 01/13  at  01:30 PM
did, if I looked at one of your filing cabinets, would I conclude you are intelligent?

I never thought of filing cabinets as being 'designed,' they were just always sort of there.

The head of the Iowa State U. mechanical engineering dept. in the mid'80s was a notorious fundie who used the 2nd Law argument. One of the department profs fought sturdily to get some sort of academic statement about this lunacy, but he got damn-all support from the rest of that enormous faculty, and notable silence from the biological disciplines.

I could not tell, at the time, whether the rest were cowards or just thought, what's the use?

As my tenured brother likes to say, 'Being tenured means you never have to say you're sorry.'



#13242: Les Lane — 01/13  at  03:24 PM
From my quotation collection:

"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence." - Napoleon



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