Pharyngula

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Monday, August 08, 2005

Warning: this weblog is run by an atheist

I am getting a great deal of angry email because I scorned religion in a few posts this weekend. Some people seem to be surprised to learn that I don't share any of their religious beliefs. Allow me to clarify and pass on a few suggestions if you feel the need to complain.

  • I do not think most religious people are bad. Quite the contrary; I think most people are decent in spite of their religion. I have a higher opinion of most religious people than you may think, while having a lower opinion of religion than you can imagine.
  • Don't try to tell me that the only way to enlist religious people to aid the cause of reason is to keep atheism in the closet. I say the only way for decent people to get over their anti-atheist bigotry is to make them aware that their neighbors and teachers and postal workers and plumbers and carpenters include freethinkers with a wide range of views…that don't include bowing to imaginary beings.
  • Also, don't try to tell me that we atheists must make common cause with sensible religious people. We try. We get along better with the dominant Christian majority than they do with us. Perhaps, instead, those sensible religious people should see atheists as allies who will readily point out the parasites and scam artists and demagogues within their faiths.
  • Please don't lecture me on how to be an atheist. The uninformed biases of the religious on how atheists are supposed to be are about as relevant as the opinions of white people on how the Negro is supposed to behave.
  • To everyone who was compelled by my contempt for D. James Kennedy and his ilk to write and tell me that he is not representative of your faith: how many of you good Christians have taken the time to condemn these hating bibliolators and ideologues of the Religious Right in letters to your congressman or even conversations with your minister? It's easier to berate that outsider atheist than to police your own, is it?
  • Don't damn the messenger who tells you your house of god is a den of thieves and liars. Clean up your mess.

There. Now if I can be comfortable with your belief that I'm going to burn in Hell, you should be able to cope with my belief that your god-bothering nonsense is a steaming heap o' BS. If not, there are plenty of less prickly weblogs out there.

P.S. Those of you sending me all the evangelical crap and signing me up for Christian mailing lists…you are really wasting your time.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2698/Y9GWvb29/

Comments:
's avatar #34356: PZ Myers — 08/08  at  06:26 PM
Lee does not seem to be aware of the possibility that one can disagree most vigorously with the opinions of another while still respecting their existence as human beings. Finding that the best place to shelve a Bible is inside a woodchipper is not the same as thinking that's where a Christian belongs.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #34357: PZ Myers — 08/08  at  06:28 PM
Thelma! Surely you don't allow little Bobbie and Suzie to read this cesspit of sin!

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34361: — 08/08  at  06:33 PM
Hey christians--your bible says we atheists are fools. If your book doesn't respect us, why should we respect it?



#34363: Cameron — 08/08  at  06:39 PM
GWW, I don't see the relevance of your comment. It seems to me Lee was pointing out that "You're stupid and I hate you" is not a great way to start a working relationship. What's popularity got to do with it?



#34365: Cameron — 08/08  at  06:42 PM
I don't recall our book saying a whole lot about modern atheists per se.

GWW, what was the point of your last comment? It seems that Lee was pointing out that "You're stupdid and I hate you" is not a great way to build a working relationship. What's popularity got to do with it?



#34366: — 08/08  at  06:47 PM
PZ wrote:
Lee does not seem to be aware of the possibility that one can disagree most vigorously with the opinions of another while still respecting their existence as human beings.


Oh, don't worry. I am fully aware of the possibility - it's simply that we approach the idea of vigorous disagreement in different ways. Surely you recognize that possibility?

Finding that the best place to shelve a Bible is inside a woodchipper is not the same as thinking that's where a Christian belongs.


Hehe. Just as people can hate the sin, but love the sinner. You have the language of the true believer nailed down. Now to the wall with you.



#34367: John Wilkins — 08/08  at  06:51 PM
What about us wishy washy agnostics? Can we tell you how to be an atheist?

GWW: Titanic? Give me a break. It's popular for the same reason Coca Cola is popular - marketing.

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



#34368: — 08/08  at  06:52 PM
Thelma, I am glad to hear that your children will understand your arbitrary sense of morality through lies and fear rather than any sort of knowledge or respect. I'll bet that they are high on speed and/or pregenant by the time that they are fourteen with that kind of moral foundation. Hell maybe the little cabbages are tweekers already! The back of a bible is a great place to cut lines and the back pages roll sweet blunts!

btw: are you Southern Baptist or Church of Christ?



's avatar #34369: PZ Myers — 08/08  at  06:55 PM
Only if I'm allowed to tell you how to be an agnostic.

Hey, that's the same reason Christianity is popular!

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34370: — 08/08  at  07:03 PM
I've always been fond of the quote from Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason"

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.


More wood for the fire?



#34372: John Wilkins — 08/08  at  07:09 PM
How many ways are there to say "I don't know?" Sure, go ahead and tell me, you atheistic commie scum...

John S. Wilkins : evolvethought.blogspot.com



's avatar #34374: Chris Clarke — 08/08  at  07:11 PM
That wasn't a throwaway comment, nor was it made in ignorance. I sincerely and without apology consider a tree or a blade of grass of far greater importance than any stack of bibles;


I thought the sentence in question ought to be carved in marble and put somewhere prominent. It was one of the most beautiful, moving, inspiring things I've read in my life. This is not hyperbole. I actually came close to weeping when I read it, partly because it was the most succinct statement of my own sincerely held religious beliefs I've seen in some time, and partly from sheer envy that I hadn't said it myself.

Though it decried the bible, and though PZ is an atheist, it was not an exclusively atheist statement. In slightly more archaic language, it would have fit seamlessly into the Sermon on the Mount, both in tone and in meaning.

I think anyone who whines about that "throwaway comment" has a numb soul. Agree with it or don't, but if your religion prevents you from seeing the beauty and truth in the statement, then your religion is broken.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#34376: — 08/08  at  07:17 PM
"GWW, what was the point of your last comment?"

It was a joke about the lengths one might go to avoid offending the sensibilities of "potential allies."

PZ isn't running for President. He's expressing his own sincere opinion. How often do you suppose politicians do that?

Try stepping away from PZ's efforts to counter and/or cripple the intelligent design propaganda machine.

Let's look at the mainstream media. Did Jon Stewart "hurt his cause" when he appeared on Crossfire and called Tucker Carlson a "dick" and mocked Carlson's ludicrous get-up? Did Jon Stewart "alienate potential allies" when he made those comments?

Or did Jon Stewart inspire and energize people who were otherwise compelled to keep their feelings about stupid assholes like Tucker Carlson to themselves?

I don't claim to know the answer.

But I sure the hell am tired about hearing from people who do claim to know the answer and who advocate gently kissing the butt cheeks of powerful liars and their script-reciting rubes without any evidence that such a "strategy" is productive.

Let Chuck Krauthammer pursue that strategy. Those with tender sensibilities can march behind Harold Varmus. There are multiple flanks waiting to be activated and stifling the most pissed off supporters -- who also happen to be among the most honest and articulate -- seems more than a bit premature.



#34377: — 08/08  at  07:18 PM
Hey christians--your bible says we atheists are fools.


Jesus said
Whoever saith, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:22)



#34379: — 08/08  at  07:25 PM
Sure, slam intolerance and the fundies with their cartoon religion. All the best there. But enough already with the caustic assault on all religious faith connected with the Bible. That faith isn't the crutch for intellectual dolts you take it for. If you're bothered that it lacks a solid proof, then read some skeptics and know that your beliefs in inductive reasoning, freedom, other minds, and a mind-independent physical world lack rigorous proof, too. All of us, atheists included, go beyond piss-ant reason and rely constantly on leaps of faith in endorsing the basic tenets and methods in our world view.



's avatar #34380: Chris Clarke — 08/08  at  07:29 PM
Jebus, I prefer Matthew 6:5.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#34382: Cameron — 08/08  at  07:31 PM
Are seriously going to claim that Jesus or Matthew was worried about atheists ca 40ce? Man, that's goofy.



#34383: — 08/08  at  07:35 PM
"All of us, atheists included, go beyond piss-ant reason and rely constantly on leaps of faith in endorsing the basic tenets and methods in our world view."

There's that red meat smell again. Frankly, I'm quite full at the moment.



#34385: — 08/08  at  07:39 PM
GWW wrote:
Or did Jon Stewart inspire and energize people who were otherwise compelled to keep their feelings about stupid assholes like Tucker Carlson to themselves?


Good point. I'm sure everyone has noticed the amazing transformation in the media (especially cable news) since Stewart's takedown of Carlson. We can only hope the scientific community has similar success against the dogmatists looking to invade the science classroom.



's avatar #34387: Chris Clarke — 08/08  at  07:47 PM
Careful, Lee. No sense depleting our nation's vital disingenuousness reserves.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#34388: — 08/08  at  07:54 PM
Chris wrote:
Careful, Lee. No sense depleting our nation's vital disingenuousness reserves.


No worry Chris. Depletion may not be possible as long as this blog stays in existence.



#34394: — 08/08  at  08:20 PM
"I'm sure everyone has noticed the amazing transformation in the media (especially cable news) since Stewart's takedown of Carlson."

Nothing like sarcastically attacking a strawman.

"Depletion may not be possible as long as this blog stays in existence."

<<fart noise>>

((((((smell)))))

^^^^^^^^ waving in Lee's direction ^^^^^^



#34395: — 08/08  at  08:30 PM
GWW wrote:
Nothing like sarcastically attacking a strawman.


Yes, when you presented the poorly stuctured analogy, it was the best I could do. If you could up the quality a bit, perhaps I could give the strawman a brain.

As for your IBS, you might try not swallowing everything offered just cause it looks good.



#34396: — 08/08  at  08:46 PM
"perhaps I could give the strawman a brain."

Doubtful. But stick around. You're sort of cute.



#34399: MJS — 08/08  at  09:04 PM
So I went down to the nursery and asked the fella there for the "Miracle Bible Mulch" I'd heard so much about but he said he was not aware of any such product. Maybe some day...

+++

The job of men of reason is harder than those who can assert unproveable religious dogma. I contend that someone who cares about these issues should consider learning as much as possible about the role of magic and belief in the history of the world, and why so many people are frightened without the Sky Buddy to cling onto: they'll fall off the planet without the glue of irrational beliefs. Why? Why can't they let go and trust the universe? Why do they insist their creator is a male, that Eden was shut down because a couple of kids wouldn't behave: what is the function of such outlandishness? Can we assume that because such beliefs are held that they have some irrational function--if so, what is it? To use simple put-downs "they're morons" or what-have-you tells us nothing.

I think instead of waiting to be described by fundies, a reasonable person who doesn't embrace three thousand year-old tribal myths might attempt to describe heaven without god and hell without the devil: let's call it earth.

+++



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