Pharyngula

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Tuesday, March 30, 2004

What's that whining noise?

Echoed on the Panda's Thumb

Creationists often pretend that getting criticism that points out their ideas are completely invalid is a validation. It's enough that they can get a scientist into a debate; even if they are hopelessly outclassed, babble and lie and treat a scientific debate as if it were a tent revival, they will afterwards strut and preen and pretend that their participation alone makes them a legitimate member of the scientific community. Dawkins made this point in his essay, "Why I won't debate creationists",

Sometime in the 1980s when I was on a visit to the United States, a television station wanted to stage a debate between me and a prominent creationist called, I think, Duane P Gish. I telephoned Stephen Gould for advice. He was friendly and decisive: "Don't do it." The point is not, he said, whether or not you would "win" the debate. Winning is not what the creationists realistically aspire to. For them, it is sufficient that the debate happens at all. They need the publicity. We don't. To the gullible public that is their natural constituency, it is enough that their man is seen sharing a platform with a real scientist. "There must be something in creationism, or Dr. So-and-So would not have agreed to debate it on equal terms." Inevitably, when you turn down the invitation, you will be accused of cowardice or of inability to defend your own beliefs. But that is better than supplying the creationists with what they crave: the oxygen of respectability in the world of real science.

Well, now Francis Beckwith has now fallen squarely into that good ol' creationist tradition of crowing triumph where there is none.

Intelligent Design's Growing Importance?

Although the intelligent design movement (IDM) is small, certain recent events seem to signal its growing importance, though the verdict is still out: the controversy over the Harvard Law Review book note of my monograph, the creation (pardon the pun) of a blog by a group of serious scientists who disagree with ID, the publication of Creationism's Trojan Horse (Oxford University Press, 2004), God, the Devil, and Darwin: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory (Oxford University Press, 2004), and Why Intelligent Design Fails (Rutgers University Press, 2004) (three books critical of ID) as well as the publication of the book edited by two ID advocates (which includes opposing views as well), Darwin, Design, and Public Education (Michigan State University Press, 2003) and the forthcoming book edited by Michael Ruse (ID opponent) and William A. Dembski (ID proponent), Debating Design: From DNA to Darwin (Cambridge University Press, 2004).

Sorry, Francis, the verdict is in. Intelligent Design creationism is a load of horseshit. What has happened is that the movement has made some inroads solely in the political and legal arenas, where the absence of a scientific basis for the belief is little handicap, and now scientists are rousing themselves to point out its glaring deficiencies. This is not a sign of its growing importance. It's a sign of growing corruption that demands a response. Read the books. Scientists are not coming out and saying that there is something to this intelligent design idea; they are announcing, with near unanimity, that it is worthless crap, junk that has no place in the lab or the schoolroom.

This site and The Panda's Thumb are not indications of growing importance (except perhaps in a purely negative way) of Intelligent Design creationism. Their goal is to inform and educate about the importance of evolutionary biology; IDists are nothing but peddlers of lies and fantasies that we want to clear out of the public consciousness.

Look at it this way. In a few months, every time I step outside the door of my house, I am going to have to do battle with Minnesota mosquitos. That I trouble myself to swat them is not a sign that they have achieved intellectual legitimacy and have earned a place at the high table. It does not mean that they have joined the community of scholars and scientists. It means nothing more than that they are a damned nuisance. Intelligent design creationists are distracters, pests, and clowns, not co-participants in the pursuit of knowledge.

Oh, and Francis? Bubeleh? When you aspire to being a rational contributor to the scientific discourse, being a buzzing, annoying, disease-carrying, blood-sucking parasite instead is not something to be proud of, OK?


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Comments:
#1391: — 03/30  at  09:44 AM
Ok, I'm new here, and as I have been looking into this debate recently, I have found that many definitions are different than what I would expect, however this surprises me:

"Intelligent Design creationism is a load of horseshit."

Now I don't personally believe that ID or creationism has anything to do with science, rather they are attempts to explain the world we observe though a supernatural explaination rather than a natural (or scientific one).

That being said, how can you discount the possibility that the universe was created by an intelligent being? If you are merely dismissing the young earth creationism concept, then I would agree, there is ample scientific evidence that the earth is old, and no logical reason to believe otherwise.

I think that it would be equally invalid, however, to dismiss the very idea that this universe was created by an intelligent design and to insist that it must have just happened. As far as I am aware there are a great number of things in this universe that we cannot explain as being the result of natural processes. Of course, with many or even all of them it may simply be a matter of time before we can solve such mysteries and be able to explain how all that we observe came to be as a result of the rules of science (nature).

We will never, however, be able to prove that it just happened without any outside influence, I suspect. Nor, will we be able to prove that outside influence was involved.

Just my thoughts.



's avatar #1392: PZ Myers — 03/30  at  09:51 AM
We're talking about different things.

Theistic evolution is the idea you are bringing up; it's innocuous and reasonable, as long as you're willing to accept the unsupported hypothesis of a supreme being, and recognizes that any hypothesis ought to at least accommodate itself to the available scientific evidence.

ID is something different. It's a movement with significant anti-evolutionist baggage, and really is premised entirely on extremist religious ideologies. It promotes baseless ideas that are contradicted by the evidence.

I think if you bring this up on the Panda's Thumb, you'll find that several of the contributors there have beliefs that fit your definition of a creator god, and are just as strongly opposed to ID as I am.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1393: Shaun Johnston — 03/30  at  11:00 AM
I'm relieved to see Aaron's note. I am in midst of posting to PT on the same matter--it is a VERY BAD IDEA to have to explain to people why evolution doesn't design intelligently. The Creationists have forced evolutionists into a shrinking corner, where what they find themselves defending becomes less and less important all the time. What needs accounting for is human intelligence, and by saying in effect that it's nothing to do with evolution you play right into the Creationsits' hands--OK, maybe this and that can be explained by evolution, but not the creation of humans, with their ability to design intelligently. VERY VERY BAD IDEA.

I know you can explain all this, to me, but explanations don't reach the public. All they see is that evolution isn't claiming to explain where human intelligence comes from, only the Creationists talk about that. It's terrible PR. And it's not even the truth. Evolution created me, and I design intelligently. Therefore evolution designs intelligently. QED.



#1394: — 03/30  at  12:31 PM
I'm new to dealing with the creationist mindset, but for me it's helpful to keep in mind that the real issue isn't how a particular piece of biology got here, it's a fundamental issue of how we see the world, and what view of the world the public sphere should support and emphasize. On the one hand, we have those who can't abide anything that challenges their particular narrow view of a specific document, and on the other we have those who believe that it is important to subject biological observations to the sort of rigorous, verifiable analysis we call "science."

Is this more widely helpful, or am I just weird (or naïve)?



#1395: — 03/30  at  01:02 PM
Shaun said "Evolution created me, and I design intelligently. Therefore evolution designs intelligently. QED. "

Ok, but then you can also say "[name your favorite intelligent designer] created me and I design intelligently. Therefore [same intelligent designer] designs intelligently. QED" with the same validity. That is, to say, none.

I'm not an expert in categorizing logical fallacies, but begging the question comes to mind (as does non-sequitur.) I suggest taking a look at the "Skeptics Dictionary" ( http://www.skepdic.com ), particularly the entry on begging the question.

As noted on PT, your definitiion of "intelligence" seems to be a bit skewed. The first definition in the online Merriam-Webster is:
1 a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

Some of the key words here: learn, understand, think. To me, at least, these imply consciousness or self-awareness. I don't suggest trying to apply those concepts to evolution; the results will not be pretty.



#1396: — 03/30  at  02:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Apparently ID is taken to mean something different now than it once did, at least to me.

As a Christian, I believe that the world was created by God. I used to think of myself as a Creationist, since I believed in a creator. I changed from that label, as Creationism has become synonomous with belief in a young earth, and a complete rejection of what science tells us. I then though of myself as believing in ID, however, it appears that that label also carrige a lot of strage beliefs with it.



#1397: Shaun Johnston — 03/30  at  03:58 PM
definitiion of “intelligence” ... online Merriam-Webster .... key words here: learn, understand, think. To me, at least, these imply consciousness or self-awareness. I don’t suggest trying to apply those concepts to evolution; the results will not be pretty.
----------------------------------------------------------
Am I so far out on left field? To me, since I am evolved, and I generate thoughts, those thoughts must be evolved--where else can they have come from? I see thoughts as being species-specific--again, evolved. Consciousness as a process may or may not be evolved, but where else can its contents come from, including intelligent designs?

If you exclude the contents of consciousness including intelligent design from the products of evolution, then I see no reason why you should complain if they're claimed by Creationists. If Creationists can say they and not you account for the contents of consciousness, then you give them a great platform for their claim to account for the rest of our creation, too, since the contents of our consciousness is what most needs explaining.

Is this issue beyond consideration, illegitimate to raise?
Do you think the public understands what you mean when you oppose intelligent design to evolution?
Are you completely happy with your position?
If there is a problem, where does it lie?



#1398: — 03/30  at  09:41 PM
PZ Myrs s n D ml, thnk. Ths vry blg ntry cknwldgs tht ts ntr pnt s t gv lgtmcy t th D mvmnt, by gvng t pblcty. Thn h mlvlntly prttls n n tht mncng, cndscndng tn ("bblh?") dsgnd (nntllgntly) nly t nsr tht ths s th lst prsn y'd wnt n yr sd f ny rgmnt. 'm dyd-n-th-wl vltnst, bt cn't rd ths pst wtht wntng t dsgr wth vrythng h sys.

f h's nt ml, thn h s prjctng hvly. H's clrly nt ntrstd n nythng bt prl nslts nd bllcsty. f y'r nt wth hm nd hs rvvl tnt, thn y'r "msqt" r "pst" wh "pddls ls nd fntss." Ths ntr st s nt bt dbtng, r prsntng vdnc, r nggng n plt t-nd-fr, bt bt swttng, nsltng nd thrws "trt[ng] scntfc dbt s f t wr tnt rvvl," s h cn thn "ftrwrds strt nd prn nd prtnd tht [hs] prtcptn ln mks [hm] lgtmt mmbr f th scntfc cmmnty."

(Editor's note: the above message, purportedly from "Steve Reuland", is actually from a crank creationist who also posted posted to the Panda's Thumb under the name of another of my colleagues there. He has been IP banned for his trouble there, and has now likewise been banned here.)



#1399: — 03/30  at  09:47 PM
Some creationists even feel the empirical evidence isn't on their side, but don't care. This site says that although it may be tempting to believe the scientific evidence, you must have enough faith to believe a literal reading of the Bible.

The author of this page could apply his arguments to a flat earth or geocentrism if he chose to. I am not yet a scientist (I'm an undergrad), but I am a Christian, and it disturbs me that he blatantly rejects any empirical evidence if it conflicts with a literal reading of the Bible. The Bible does not tell us to ignore evidence; quite the opposite. Many verses talk about how nature reveals truth about God.

I am glad that there are Christian sites like this one.



Trackback: What's that whining noise? Tracked on: The Panda's Thumb (0) at 2004 03 30 08:24:27
Creationists often pretend that getting criticism that points out their ideas are completely invalid is a validation. It's enough that they can get a scientist into a debate; even if they are hopelessly outclassed, babble and lie and treat a...



#1400: Ben — 03/31  at  02:00 AM
Self-consciousness arises when a certain level of intelligence is achieved. Look at chimps, orangs, dolphins, and babies above around 18 months of age with mirror tests. There's nothing mystical behind it.

That being said, how can you discount the possibility that the universe was created by an intelligent being?

Because it's a non-falsifiable hypothesis. You could potentially make up an infinite number of equally possible statements with equally zero evidence, but scientifically it's a complete waste of time, which is why credible theories are only drawn from testable empirical observations.



#1401: — 03/31  at  05:03 AM
Like the hypothesis that the Universe has been created and is being controlled by a very large community of supernatural beings. Can anyone disprove that hypothesis?



#1402: — 03/31  at  11:57 AM
Another of Beckwith's claims deserves scrutiny:

<blockquote>Nevertheless, the deeper questions that ID raises about what counts as knowledge, what is the nature of science, whether one can demarcate between science and non-science, and whether such a demarcation carries any epistemological freight are all worth the price of admission.</blockquote>

Unfortunately, ID advocates did not "raise" these questions. They have been hotly debated by philosophers of science for the last several decades, and by other philosophers for many centuries prior. As with biology, ID has had absolutely nothing useful to add here. The questions they bring up are not new, and the answers they give are predicatably tailored to whatever serves their immediate rhetorical purposes, even when it flatly contradicts what they've said elsewhere.

The ID movement is forced to argue over basic epistemology and demarcation for the simple reason that it totally lacks any empirical content, research program, or testable models. When it gets pointed out that ID fails to be science as scientists understand it, they go running to philosophy. That's as good a sign as any that the critics are right. A good scientific theory should have no need to redefine what counts as knowledge; it should be convincing (or not) merely by the weight of the evidence.

That leaves ID no better off than any other crackpot nonsense, whose advocates could make an equally strong defense of their ideas by appealing to epistemological relativism. I think it's rather unfortunate that Beckwith sees this as a positive sign.

(P.S. -- this is the "real" me, not the fake me that's since been banned.)



's avatar #1403: PZ Myers — 03/31  at  12:03 PM
Yeah, right -- you know, the fake one would say that, too.

I don't quite get this Beckwith fella. I haven't read any of his books, but what I'm seeing of him here and elsewhere isn't impressing me with his grasp of philosophy or logic—I'm debating whether to respond to his latest pathetic whinge or let it drop. He's reduced to IKYABWAI and yet again asserting that because I think ID is inane, I must really think there's something to it.

Yeah, too stupid to pursue. I think that's the best answer.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#1404: Francis Beckwith — 03/31  at  02:47 PM
Hmmm! You're just playing hard to get. grin

What I was suggesting in my blog entry is that issuing judgments about the proper way by which human beings ought to conduct themselves in the presence of arguments they would be irrational to accept must rely on some notion of what a human being's proper function is as a rational agent. I could, of course, be wrong here, but it seems to me that in order to say ID-advocate X is not rational in accepting argument Y, one must have some inkling about the proper function of the human mind and one's obligation to fulfill this function. It's possible I have not read enough on this subject, but it seems to me that a naturalist account of the cosmos, including human beings, has no place for normative notions such as "proper function." So, my whimsical argument was suggesting that every time an anti-IDer corrects an ID-advocate for coming up short in his rational obligations, he or she must presuppose a notion that makes sense only if human beings are in fact designed for a particular purpose or proper function. It's not a knock-down, drag-out argument; it's just meant to accentuate the way in which critics of design often rely on notions that they have difficulty accounting for under a naturalist paradigm.



's avatar #1405: PZ Myers — 03/31  at  02:56 PM
No. I have a good idea of how science is done.

ID creationists claim to have a scientific, not religious, justification for their ideas.

I evaluate them on the basis of how well they meet the criteria they have declared.

They fail.


Now, you would have a case if they claimed to be making a statement of religious faith. Then you could complain that it was inappropriate for me to impose my presuppositions about how rational thought should proceed on someone who is admittedly operating on a different foundation. I'd even agree with you. Your argument only works if the ID creationists admit that they are playing in a different playground than that of science.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



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