#1541: — 04/08  at  03:33 PM
You may indeed get some hatemail Paul, but not from me. I find myself agreeing with every word of every answer. A rational voice based on science. What a shame that right now that seems to be a minority view.

#1542: — 04/08  at  05:47 PM
Interesting. I would think, given the usual human tendency to accord a right to life to what appears to be human, even if, like newborns or the severely retarded, it lacks much in the way of autonomy, cognitive development, or personality, the onus would be on you to justify NOT according that right. If, that is, the tendency in question is reasonable--and I submit it is, on the principle of erring on the side of not killing what may make me a murderer by killing it.

This is not to say that the fetus necessarily wins, but rather that I think one ought to make a good showing why it shouldn't.

Maybe you can clarify: you have said you can consider situations where infanticide is ethically tenable. Why, while you're being so tough-minded, shouldn't infanticide be allowable in all situations? A newborn certainly doesn't have autonomy. If "cognitive development" means what it does in Webster's ("the process of acquiring intelligence and increasingly advanced thought and problem-solving ability from infancy to adulthood"), what significant discontinuity is there between the newborn and a fetus, say, a week before birth? The newborn may have started to think, though in the absence of language I consider that a doubtful assertion. Perhaps the newborn (whether it thinks or not) IS starting to solve problems, though I'm uncertain why that is a fact of greater importance than the near-certainty that an eight-and-a-half month fetus will start doing the same thing once expelled from the womb. (I'm not sure that "acquiring intelligence" in the definition adds anything over and beyond "increasingly advanced thought and problem-solving ability"). If it's a matter of being conscious as opposed to being unconscious--once again why is that distinction freighted with so much significance?

It seems to me, at any rate, to be one thing to say that a zygote has no claim on our consideration, since it's a clump of cells with no mental activity
at all; but as this entity gets closer to birth, it seems to me to be harder and harder to say as much. I don't think this increased difficulty arises from mystical fol de rol; rather it's simply because what we're looking at looks more and more human.

#1543: PZ Myers — 04/08  at  06:14 PM
This is not a black and white issue. There is no abrupt transition where you can say that it's not human one minute, and human with all the associated rights and privileges thereto in the next (although pro-lifers try to portray it that simply). That's why I say infanticide can be considered in some situations, but not all -- an anencephalic child, for instance, should be humanely euthanized without a qualm.

The significant discontinuity between newborn and fetus is that the newborn is acquiring independent sensations and building its personality. It's not much of a personality, but we're dealing with shades of gray here. If you'd rather not think of the conscious/unconscious distinction as significant, OK -- we'll err on the side of the mother's rights, since we're confident that she is conscious, aware, thinking, etc., and allow even later term abortions.

And my little off-the-cuff triad of criteria does not mean that if an organism doesn't meet one, you get to snuff it. If I were to become a quadriplegic, I'd lose autonomy, but not humanity. I'm saying that being human is much, much more than simply being an aggregation of cells; thought and history are much more important.

#1544: — 04/08  at  07:33 PM
I agree with you completely on its not being a black and white issue (I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything to suggest otherwise).

As for erring on the side of the mother's rights, "since we’re confident that she is conscious, aware, thinking, etc.," I think you're disregarding one thing (not very troubling maybe when we're dealing with a zygote): you're weighing an undoubted human being against what isn't so certainly human, but you're also weighing the autonomy of the one against the life of the other. (When there's no doubt about the humanity of the two parties, we don't hesitate to say, usually, that my autonomy doesn't trump your life.) I would therefore err on the side of the mother early on, but later, when the distinction between unborn and newborn has gotten awfully narrow, I think it makes sense to err in the other direction. Any cutoff line would of course be completely arbitrary.

This opinion will inspire hate mail as well, I imagine.

Trackback: 23 questions Tracked on: Rhosgobel: Radagast's Home (0) at 2004 04 08 23:12:23
A 23 question survey meme, from Pharyngula: 1: Grab the book nearest to you, turn to page 18, find line 4. Write down what it says: "... remarkable. How did life begin? The biologist ..." 2: Stretch your left arm out as far as you can....

#1545: PZ Myers — 04/09  at  06:04 AM
That's a reasonable position to take. Therefore, I grant you the Right of Demurral. If every you get pregnant, you may carry the fetus to term.

#1546: — 04/09  at  06:54 AM
Amusing.

Of course, if it's impertinent for a man to opine on the rights and wrongs of abortion, it's impertinent regardless of the position he takes.

I expect you to do with each of your pregnancies just what it suits you to do.

#1547: Charlie Wagner — 04/09  at  01:48 PM
Well, it's 82 degrees here on Maui, so I'm back out of hibernation.

For the sake of conversation, here are my replies to the abortion survey:


1) Where do you fall under the pro-abortion rights and anti-abortion rights continuum?

I'm anti-abortion and pro-abortion rights. (like most people)

2) Do you object to terms like "pro-life" and "pro-choice" or are they largely semantic?

I'm both pro-life and pro-choice, so they're meaningless

3) Why do you support or not support abortion rights? Be honest, please.

Who am I to tell someone else what to do with their bodies? Who am I to tell anyone else anything?

4) Are there instances in which abortion should be legal/not legal? Why?

People should not have abortions, but the government should not be involved in these personal medical decisions at all. There should be no laws making abortion either legal or illegal.

5) How did you come to these conclusions?

They're self evident.

As for the other poll:

1: Grab the book nearest to you, turn to page 18, find line 4. Write down what it says:

"When man is born, the stage is set for him. He has to eat and drink, and therefore he has to work; and this means he has to work under the particular condition and in ways that are determined for him by the kind of society into which he was born"
Erich Fromme "Escape from Freedom" (1941)

2: Stretch your left arm out as far as you can. What do you touch first?

My wife's right tit, (or her right ear, depending on the angle of elevation)

3: What is the last thing you watched on TV?

Mets vs Atlanta (we lost :-(

4: WITHOUT LOOKING, guess what the time is:

3:00

5: Now look at the clock; what is the actual time?

3:10 (I'm anal retentive about the time. Being late is worse for me than...)

6: With the exception of the computer, what can you hear?

Dr. Phil

7: When did you last step outside? What were you doing?

12:30...to get the mail

8: Before you came to this website, what did you look at?

I was surfing around Kevin Strom's website
http://www.kevin-strom.com/
I know he's a white supremist but he's got great taste in Art. There's some good in everyone I guess.

9: What are you wearing?

Bathing suit, Hawaiian shirt


10: Did you dream last night?

Of course, everyone dreams every night...or they'd die
Perhaps you mean "do I remember my dreams from last night?"



11: When did you last laugh?

This morning. I was reading Michael Moore's book "Dude, Where's My Country" and watching "Hard Day's Night" at the same time


12: What is on the walls of the room you are in?

Paintings and photographs. Maxfield Parrish, Ansel Adams and a lot of my own pictures and photographs

13: Seen anything weird lately?

Yeah for sure. That gnomey looking guy on the Six Flags commercial who hobbles off the bus and then dances. Scared the crap out of me.

14: What do you think of this quiz?

It's a forum for me to be humorous and indulge myself. No one cares what I think about this stuff. It's like... onanism

15: What is the last film you saw?

"Wings of Desire". It's a Wim Wenders film and if you haven't seen it, run, don't walk to your nearest rental place. Peter Falk is magnificent

16: If you became a multi-millionaire overnight, what would you buy first?

I don't need anything. But I'd take a crack at playing God. You know, give people money and change their lives. Like Oprah does.

17: Tell me something about you that I don't know.

I cried during "In Excelsis Deo" on West Wing...and when young Pink found his father's uniform and hat in "The Wall"...in fact, I cry a lot. I'm very emotional.

18: If you could change one thing about the world, regardless of guilt or politics, what would you do?

Abolish all religion.

19: Do you like to dance?

No.

20: George Bush: is he a power-crazy nutcase or some one who is finally doing something that has needed to be done for years?

I don't know how to characterize his motives, but he's well on his way to destroying this country and must be removed from office. I just hope thare are enough rational people left to do the job. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

21: Imagine your first child is a girl, what do you call her?

She was a girl. In fact I have four. Wendy, Jennifer, Leslie and Carrie.

22: Imagine your first child is a boy, what do you call him?

I'm a Bill, Bob, Mike, Pete, Joe, kind of guy. Take your pick. There would be no Devon's or Garretts or Jasons


23: Would you ever consider living abroad?

Is Hawaii abroad? I'm probably going to sell my house in NY and stay here. Europe or Asia? No way. I like America.

By the way, I loved your Squid piece above. I have a large photo of a Sea Angel on my wall. Isn't nature magnificent? It never ceases to amaze me.