Pharyngula::Which is it? Are we a Christian or anti-Christian nation?

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Monday, November 28, 2005

Which is it? Are we a Christian or anti-Christian nation?

PZ Myers • 49 Comments (last page)

The rot goes deeper than I thought. It's not just Christmas—we're out to destroy Christianity. TBogg finds the strangest site, a place called the Christian Underground, that happily rolls around in their delusions of persecution. Here's their slogan:

I will pray when I want
Where I want

School
Work
The street
The mall

Persecute me at your own peril

Huh?

What Christians are being persecuted for praying in America? Speaking as a raging atheist myself, I say…go ahead and pray. Get down on your knees in school, at work, on the street (as long as you aren't in the way of traffic), and at the mall, raise your clasped hands and shout "Hallelujah!" You are allowed, I'm not going to call the cops on you (unless you are risking life and limb in the street), and at the worst I might look at you funny and twirl my forefinger in circles near my temple.

Maybe they think they are putting up a brave front by engaging in a "dangerous" activity, but praying in public in America is about as challenging as humming or singing or skipping or talking to yourself. It's just not very edgy. It's not at all risky, and in fact, the majority of the population will think it's just wonderful.

The site admin has this warning up on the front page.

Being a Christian in modern America is becoming more and more a dangerous thing. Christians in the workplace, children in our schools, leaders in our community, are penalized (Some times prosecuted) for standing up for their Christian held beliefs. This trend is growing faster and faster.
We know dark days are ahead for Christians, the bible tells us this. That does not mean we cannot be active. It is not hard to envision, near in the future, when publicly discussing issues of deeply held biblical belief, that Christians will be arrested for "Hate Crimes".

It seems to me that self-proclaimed Christians are being prosecuted for corruption and incompetence, not their religion; that it is a betrayal of purported Christian values that angers people. It looks like professing a love of Jesus has become a catch-all cover to conceal atrocities, cronyism, and failure. We aren't interested in prosecuting Christians, but when Christianity becomes the facade behind which cockroaches lurk, try not to conflate the vermin with your philosophy. And hey, maybe it would be a good idea to clean your own house rather than blaming your neighbors, who are beginning to see you as the source of much pestilence.

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Comments:

#50957: — 11/28 at 11:33 AM
And if you'll notice, they charge $2.99 a month to access the site. Wonder what porn site they got that idea from?!

#50958: — 11/28 at 11:35 AM
I find the persecution complex of these people absolutely hilarious. The more the complain about a problem that doesn't exist the more dishonest and infantile they look. The bigger asses they make out of themsevles, the funnier it is.

Thanks for that link. That's a laugh riot.

#50962: Ken Cope — 11/28 at 11:50 AM
I persecuted a Christian just the other day. On the 100 mile drive home from turkey with the family, we stopped for In&Out burgers and drinks. The company practices what I'd have to call crypto-proselytizing; on the bottoms of drink cups they print not Bible verses themselves but just where in the Bible to find them, i.e., John 3:16 (like the new prisoner on the cell block who learns that even though other prisoners don't tell jokes, just the number they're designated by; it's how you tell it). Pretty damned subtle and about as unobjectionable as could be. I didn't let that stop me.

As the pimply kid handed down my drink from the window, I noticed a verse from Proverbs, so I remarked that I have yet to find Matthew 6:6 on the bottom of an In&Out cup.

#50963: — 11/28 at 11:51 AM
Christian Underground? Wherever did they get the idea for that name...
And $2.99 a mo, huh? Ya think there was someone at the entrance to the Catacombs, charging admittance when things got rough in Rome? Kinda doubt it, myself. Christianity, we hardly knew ya...

#50964: — 11/28 at 11:52 AM
But then there is this story from Ed Brayton:
http://www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2005/10/charges_against_street_preache.php

(This is the tail end of the story, there were about 4 total posts.)

About a Street Preacher in New Mexico held in jail without charges for 150 days or so. Of course, the ACLU came to his defense.

#50965: — 11/28 at 11:58 AM
That 'source of much pestilence' line was a real zinger!

#50966: Kristine Harley — 11/28 at 12:00 PM
So pray when you want
where you want

school
work
the street
the mall

I don't give a crap
I'm the first to stand up
for you
if anyone picks on you
for doing something
that many atheists believe
relieves stress, if nothing else,
and doesn't hurt me

I hate persecution
of everyone
including my Muslim friends
whose public prayers
five times a day
seem to make
some Christians resentful
as if making them "look bad"
so be nice to them, too

So pray, but leave me
and my genetics book
alone
on the bus
I didn't pay fare to get converted

After death
I'm going
where Darwin went
where Neanderthal went
where homo habilis went
where all my relations
went
and where you're going

#50967: Jeff Fecke — 11/28 at 12:08 PM
Really, who are the eeevul nonchristians who are persecuting the Christians? I'm a Unitarian (Church motto: "Church Motto Pending in the Committee on Mottoes"), and I've been concerned about Christian prayer approximately...never. Indeed, I'd be very upset if my local schools were keeping students from praying on their own time. Religious liberty is a bedrock foundation of America--and that means that Atheists, Jews, and Christians shoud be able to pray or not whenever the spirit does or doesn't move them.

I just don't think the government should pick winners and losers in religious battles. If that makes me a persecutor--so be it.

#50968: — 11/28 at 12:11 PM
I'll be more generous than PZ: go right ahead and kneel down and pray in traffic.

Preferably on a nearby interstate highway, after dark. I won't try and stop you, that would be persecution.

#50970: Kagehi — 11/28 at 12:17 PM

It seems to me that self-proclaimed Christians are being prosecuted for corruption and incompetence, not their religion...

Yep. Odd how when confronted with the reality of their hubris, incompetence and corruption, they insist its the people objecting to it that is destroying them, not their own failure. Yet, their own bloody Bible makes is abundantly clear in multiple places that this false faith, intentional lying and corruption of the true way (if one presumed such existed in the first place) is *precisely* the stuff their God has a habit of obliterating entire civilizations for commiting. One simply hopes that if such a being existed, he would let the rest of us go someplace else before incinerating the next Saddom or Gammora... I mean, after all, look at almost any disaster from the LA riots to pretty much anything else. We would all be headed out of town, they would all be in a church praying for their God to change his mind. lol

Well, its funny now at least. Back when I watched the riots going on I was simply agast at the idiocy of thousands of people hiding in churches, while maybe 50-100 or so actively burned down their own city... Worse, the whole thing probably started with less than 20 and could have been stopped by the members of less than one, "Oh please God, stop it for us!", church. It seriously pisses me off.

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein

#50972: — 11/28 at 12:25 PM
It's not enough for these people to be able to 'pray' in whatever manner they wish, they also demand that other people treat their overt public displays of religiousity with reverence. Anyone who doesn't respect their silly fairy-tale cult rituals is victimizing them.

#50973: QrazyQat — 11/28 at 12:30 PM
Here's the deal:

These people are slinging mud, all the time. To have that much mud available to sling, you have to be standing in it, and when you're standing in mud, everything seems like the slipperiest of slopes.

#50974: — 11/28 at 12:30 PM
"Being a Christian in modern America is becoming more and more a dangerous thing..."

Only if you are a Dominionist and subscribe to the "Biblical" notion of "at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow".

Perhaps they should try living in just about any other Western nation. Then perhaps they'll see how good they already have it here.

Ironically, the fact that they feel persecuted and think they have to fight for their rights is one of the reasons America is still as religious as it is. In most of Europe, Christianity is dying from benign neglect. Over there, there's no battle over creationism, no fight to keep Christmas displays in the town square, nothing to keep the Christian movement vital and battle-hardened.

I've often thought that the battles like those to remove "In God We Trust" from our money, and "under God" from the Pledge only serve to rally the troops to the Christian cause, including people who would otherwise care less about it. Sure, you have to draw the line somewhere, but the more people fight against these things, the stronger the resistance.

#50975: — 11/28 at 12:34 PM

We aren't interested in prosecuting Christians, but when Christianity becomes the facade behind which cockroaches lurk, try not to conflate the vermin with your philosophy. And hey, maybe it would be a good idea to clean your own house rather than blaming your neighbors, who are beginning to see you as the source of much pestilence.

And an English class or two wouldn't kill you, either. I mean, c'mon:

Christians in the workplace, children in our schools, leaders in our community, are penalized (Some times prosecuted) for standing up for their Christian held beliefs.

You call that a sentence?

#50977: — 11/28 at 12:37 PM
There will be prayer in school as long as there is algebra. But what sincerely religious person wants government-issue prayer?

#50980: rlrr — 11/28 at 12:59 PM
Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion…. perhaps around their necks? And maybe — dare I dream it? — maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively.
— Jon Stewart

#50981: — 11/28 at 01:06 PM
Politics is myth of a different order. To hard-right evangelicals (and many somewhat closer to the center), the myth of Christian persecution is as powerful as the myth of Kennedy's Camelot is to other Americans. The surprising and dangerous thing is that these people believe they're being actively persecuted, that they're somehow the moral equivalent of Justin Martyr or Polycarp (rather than Cyril of Alexandria). Just because they don't have any evidence for their assertions, don't expect them to change.

#50982: Keith — 11/28 at 01:10 PM
Damn it! They found me out. Now what am I supposed to feed my lion?

#50983: Stephen Stralka — 11/28 at 01:17 PM
You know, I've never been in one of those Christian bookstores, but now I'm thinking maybe I should go and see if they're selling the same dictionaries the rest of us use. I wouldn't be surprised to find they had some kind of "biblical" dictionary that defines persecution as "any failure to acknowledge the inherent superiority of true Christians."

#50984: Rick @ shrimp and grits — 11/28 at 01:26 PM

There will be prayer in school as long as there is algebra.

There's algebra in high school? You've got to be kidding me. Next thing I know, you'll be saying that English is in high schools too!

* looks at stack of laboratory reports, wondering how many have incorrect rearrangements of PV=nRT ... *

#50987: — 11/28 at 01:34 PM
Jesus told his followers to pray in secret, not in public. Also, I suspect Jesus would have a problem with his followers if they made implied threats like "Persecute me at your own peril."

Since christians would follow the teachings of Jesus, and these people do not follow the teachings of Jesus, I conclude that they are not christians.

#50988: — 11/28 at 01:38 PM

As the pimply kid handed down my drink from the window, I noticed a verse from Proverbs, so I remarked that I have yet to find Matthew 6:6 on the bottom of an In&Out cup.

Well, Ken, that was pretty mild persecution if you ask me. Now, if you'd mentioned 1Samuel 5:9, that would have been something else...

#50989: Alon Levy — 11/28 at 01:41 PM
We're going to have to storm that website, confiscating its servers and sending its owners to a reeducation camp. Otherwise people will realize our plot to destroy morality everywhere in the world, abolish the family, criminalize heterosexuality, and propagate the lie that is evolution...

#50990: John M. Price — 11/28 at 01:42 PM
Growing up a young Catholic kid, I wondered why the Christias were ever persecuted.

Now, as an adult, and seeing what they want to do to our public square, I root for lions. Really. I think that is the point of their persecution: They cannot impose their beliefs on all, therefore, that is persecution itself.

Gees, the government supports them through tax exemptions - and they complain when they get caught violating THOSE rules!

Personally, I say institute the god test: 1Kings18:33 et seq. If they can't get fire from heaven to light their bullocks, tax them (property taxes especially) for five years when they can try again. We don't need to kill the failures, but that would be a biblical act as well!

#50991: Fusioner — 11/28 at 01:52 PM
Hi

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We would appreciate your posting this link, writing a letter, signing a petition... Please participate and feel free to pass this link around the left. It's time for our voices to rise together above the din.

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Monday, November 28, 2005

Which is it? Are we a Christian or anti-Christian nation?

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