Pharyngula

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Sunday, June 12, 2005

Whoops, he did it again!

You must take a look at this. That weblogger I criticized for his flawed understanding of science has replied in his comment thread, and Oh. My. Gob. He defends young-earth creationism with the ancient, long-discredited moon dust, thermodynamics, helium, and magnetic fields arguments. It's like a creationist who has been frozen in a glacier since the 1960s, only to emerge blinking into the light and parrot his long-dead religious dogma again.

He does bring up a new argument, but I think I'll pass this one on to Coturnix—he should have fun with it. He thinks circadian rhythms indict evolution.

Finally, let's look at circadian rhythms and the age of the earth. Investigation of nearly all of the earth's living organisms including microorganisms, plants, animals and humans) reveal the existence of circadian rhythms or biological clocks Numerous scientific studies have clearly deomnstrated that these circadian rhythms are not only widely present in all life forms, but are resistant to any and all external changes in the environment. Studies have shown that these biological rhythms are also endogenous or built-in genetically. How did these 24 hour rhythms get there in the first place? Obviously, they had to have been programmed initially into all biological life forms by the Creator (Jesus Christ) himself.

Uh, wow. I'm itching to mention that circadian rhythms vary in different organisms, few have a 24 hour clock, and that there are lots of mutations and known natural variants that change the clock's timing…but like I said, Coturnix would use this guy as a light warmup.

I've got to mention this one, though: I've encountered it in a prior encounter with a creationist. It's the leap second argument.

Life as we know it, under no circumtances, could function very long with any significant deviation from a 24 hour day. In conjunction with the gradual deceleration of the earth's rotation namely 1.9 seconds every 100 years, then just one million theoretical years ago, an earth day would last about 18.7 hours; two million theoretical years ago, the day would have lasted 13.4 hours; and only four million theoretical years ago, an earth day would last a mere 2.8 hours. Living creatures could not possibly adapt or survive in any of these abbreviated environments.

The rate of the earth's rotation is slowing down, but not at anything like 1.9 seconds per century; it's closer to a millisecond per century. The predicted changes in day length are actually in close agreement with measurements of daily growth patterns in fossils from hundreds of millions of years ago. The only way you can get such grossly wrong estimates of ancient day lengths is by misunderstanding leap seconds.

Leap seconds are added now and then to bring the measurements of clocks into alignment with actual time; it's an artifact of consistent, predictable error in the measuring devices. The last time I heard a creationist triumphantly claim that the atomic clocks proved that the earth was slowing down at such a pace that it would have had to have been whirling at an impossibly rapid speed mere millions of years ago, I had to trump him by bringing up leap years.

Did you know we have to add an extra day to the year every four years? That means the year was 25 days shorter a century ago. In the 17th century, years must have been only 265 days long. Why, in the 6th century, a year would have been only one day long! Clearly, the world couldn't have existed in 1AD, so so much for the Jesus myth. Although, quite interestingly, the time of the calendrical singularity when the year would have been 0 days long coincides somewhat closely with Mohammed and the birth of Islam.

I trust everyone sees the obvious logical error in my calculations. It's the same one this bryanm fellow is making.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2412/wCoqbYYe/

Comments:
#28134: coturnix — 06/12  at  09:32 AM
Ha! You have delivered him into my hands!

Thanks for taking care of "leap second". I'll be back with more later today.



#28137: Orac — 06/12  at  09:43 AM
I can't wait. The Circadian rhythm argument is one I haven't heard from creationists before!

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#28138: — 06/12  at  09:45 AM
I want to call you all nerds and steal your lunch money, but I am unfortunately quite interested in reading this too...I've been converted to science! No!

I deserve a wedgie.



#28141: — 06/12  at  10:02 AM
Whoa.

I'm converting to Islam!



#28143: — 06/12  at  10:08 AM
The Wedgie Strategy.

Somehow that gives new meaning to The "Vice" Strategy too.



#28144: — 06/12  at  10:11 AM
I think you should send this guy on to Jim Pinkoski. No wonder those dinosaurs attacked the Ark- they were only getting like 3.5 minutes of sleep a night, and boy were they grumpy!



#28147: — 06/12  at  10:44 AM
I (am notoriously bad at math and) don't get the flaw in your argument. Care to explain? Thanks.



#28151: — 06/12  at  11:18 AM
the "flaw" is in the assumption that the ways we measure time have anything to do with the movement of the planet. it's like this:

the earth rotates around its axis, and it orbits the sun. it does this at pretty much whatever rates it happens to, because a ball of mostly iron the size of a planet is not impressed by anything much smaller than itself.

we humans measure time in seconds, days, years, and so on. and because we apparently have square minds, we try to make the units we use monotonous; we want each "day" to be equally as long as every other, every "second" just as long as the rest, and we really want our days to contain an integer number of seconds; the same number every day, of course. it'd be nice, too, if every year was made up of an integer number of days; that way, reality would nicely fit our preconceived notions of regularity and neatness.

except, of course, that the planet doesn't care. days are not all equally long, the year has a fractional number of days, and "seconds" don't occur in astrophysics at all, unless maybe as a measurement of angles.

leap seconds, just as leap days, are artificial constructs we've had to invent in order to fit our preconceived notions of a regular calendar and regular timekeeping into the highly irregular and non-neat ways the planet actually moves. they're not indicative of any slowing down in the day, or year, at all, they merely indicate how badly our preconceptions fit reality.

does that help any, or have i merely confused you worse?



#28153: — 06/12  at  11:34 AM
I trust everyone sees the obvious logical error in my calculations.


See it? It had me laughing out loud. The Hebrew calendar, by the way uses 28-day months and adds an entire leap month on average, about once every 2.7 years. I suppose that according to Judaism, the world couldn't be more than about 100 years old (just guessing, I haven't done the math).

Lisa,
The trick is that a year is actually about 365.25 days long. If we did things that way, though, it would be really confusing. The first year would start at midnight on Jan 1, but the second year would start at 6:00 am, the third at noon, the fourth at 6:00 pm, and the fifth at midnight of Jan 2. To prevent all that mess, we save up all those quarter days until they add up to a whole day and add that day to the calendar in the form of a leap day.

Look at it this way: imagine you and I are in business together and we split the profits evenly. Our business earns $1000.01 every week. We can't split that penny, so one week we each take $500.00 and save the penny until the next week when we each get $500.01. The business isn't earning an extra penny every two weeks, that's just how we divide things up.



's avatar #28154: PZ Myers — 06/12  at  11:53 AM
Even shorter: we add leap seconds because our clocks are all a little bit slow, not because the rate of the earth's rotation is slowing down, just as we add leap-days because our calendar year is 365 days long, instead of the 365.25 days in an actual year.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28158: — 06/12  at  12:06 PM
Lisa -- here's a less colorful smile but shorter explanation.

A year -- the time it takes for the Earth to go once around the sun -- is about 365.25 (365 and a quarter) days long. However, to keep our calendar neat, we pretend that every time the Earth goes around the sun, only 365 days have passed.

So after 1 orbit (1 year), 365.25 actual days have passed, but only 365 calendar days have passed.

After 2 orbits (2 years), 730.5 actual days have passed, but only 730 calendar days have passed.

After 3 orbits (3 years), 1095.75 actual days have passed, but only 1095 calendar days have passed.

After 4 orbits (4 years), 1461 actual days have passed, but only 1460 calendar days have passed.

After four years, our calendar is one day behind... so we add a day! This extra "leap" day has nothing to do with any actual, physical change in the length of the year: it's just a way to correct for the fact that our calendar slightly underestimates the length of the year.

Leap days aren't the only way to make this correction. For example, instead of adding one day every four years, we could add six hours -- a quarter of a day -- to every year. If we added the extra six hours to December 31, we could party for 30 hours straight every year!

p.s. Incidentally, the actual time it takes for the Earth to make one orbit around the sun isn't exactly 365.25 days either. It's slightly less, so we compensate by skipping a leap year every 100 years. When we do that, though, we actually overcompensate, so every 400 years we have to skip skipping a leap day!

p.p.s. By the way, the actual, physical length of the year is changing, due to the decreasing mass of the sun, drag on the earth caused by space gas and dust, the gravitational effects of other space objects, etc.. However, these effects are negligible -- a polite, technical way to say, "so tiny that NOBODY CARES."



#28160: — 06/12  at  12:09 PM
DAMMIT! Thanks, Beth and P.Z., for reminding the audience why they should hire Aaron's famous barn-door-closing service... ;) ;)



#28162: — 06/12  at  12:22 PM
Interesting to see different people explain the same thing - you basicly said the same, but in different ways.
A bit of leap year history from this site:

The leap year was introduced in the Julian calendar in 46 BC. However, around 10 BC, it was found that the priests in charge of computing the calendar had been adding leap years every three years instead of the four decreed by Caesar (Vardi 1991, p. 239). As a result of this error, no more leap years were added until 8 AD. Leap years were therefore 45 BC, 42 BC, 39 BC, 36 BC, 33 BC, 30 BC, 27 BC, 24 BC, 21 BC, 18 BC, 15 BC, 12 BC, 9 BC, 8 AD, 12 AD, and every fourth year thereafter (Tøndering), until the Gregorian calendar was introduced (resulting in skipping three out of every four centuries). The UNIX command cal incorrectly lists 4 AD as a leap year.



#28172: — 06/12  at  01:20 PM
Your of course forgetting the rule:

365 + ((year mod 4) = 0) - ((year mod 100) = 0)

Its not exactly 365.25, nor it is what ever the above exactly either. I think every X,000 years they have to tweak it again or something, as well as a rule for every 400 years that counters the 100 year rule, etc...? Forgive me if the math above is off though, I haven't used the equation in a long time and it doesn't work in every language as written. It should add 1 every 4 years, but then also subtract one every 100, unless I totally messed it up. Lets just say that the moron that figured on making a second 'close' to that of a human heart beat, then had the genius idea of trying to force that into a 24 hour cycle got it wrong in 'multiple' ways. Had they defined a second as the 'correct' fraction, then we might be looking at a one hour correction every 10,000 years or something.



#28173: — 06/12  at  01:26 PM
But Bill O'Reilly, in an interview with (ohell, I forget who) declared that a day consists of twenty-four hours--that's science!



#28174: — 06/12  at  01:27 PM
Kagehi, if I understand your syntax correctly, it's actually:

365 +((year mod 4)=0)-((year mod 100)=0)+((year mod 400)=0).

Theoretically it should be +((year mod 8000)=0), but that is so far away that the change over time might affect it.



#28177: coturnix — 06/12  at  01:40 PM
My response got too long for a comment, so I placed it on my blog:
Reverend William Paley's Circadian Clock



#28178: — 06/12  at  01:42 PM
i believe the checks for years mod greater-than-400 aren't in use anymore (if they ever were), since judicious usage of leap seconds can make those rules unnecessary. probably leap seconds could even make the 400-year-rule pointless, but i think that one's been allowed to stay on for historical reasons. i'm not entirely sure, though; if it wasn't such a fine day i'd go google the NOAA website to see if they could straighten me out.



#28179: Nick — 06/12  at  01:44 PM
On the looney guy's blog you mentioned your last comment on there but i only saw one, did he delete your response?
Either way, your post was pretty zing, i was hoping someone would field that one... it would be a shame for a priceless argument like that to be ignored.



#28181: chris — 06/12  at  02:05 PM
You know, since creationists are like broken records, repeating the same debunked claims and unsound arguments over and over again, you could probably number each of the responses, and then not even have to write any words in your posts that link to their's. For instance, a post linking to a creationist who uses the cosmic dust, 2nd law of thermodynamics, helium, and magnetic fields arguments, might read:
Creationist alert: 18, 3, 11, 13.
I just made up those numbers, but who cares? That would save you so much time and energy. Of course, as you came across new arguments (like the circadian rhythms argument), you could give them links and numbers.



#28182: — 06/12  at  02:07 PM
To four decimal places, the tropical year (the time between successive vernal equinoxes) is 365.2422 days. Starting at a 365-day year, one leap day every four years gives you a 365.25 day year. Eliminating the leap day every 100 years gets you 365.24, and putting back every fourth eliminated leap day gets you to 365.2425. There might be another rule in there to get to 365.2422, because if you put in leap seconds that would make the year longer, and as I recall leap seconds are extra time, as opposed to seconds that are skipped, but I could be wrong about that being a general rule. Somehow you have to skip three days in 10,000 years to get to 365.2422, but I'm not sure if that's all done with leap seconds.

See also http://www.timeanddate.com/date/leapyear.html.



#28192: — 06/12  at  03:11 PM
Somehow you have to skip three days in 10,000 years to get to 365.2422, but I'm not sure if that's all done with leap seconds.


Then, we'll just skip adding the leap day in the years 3200,6400, and 9600.

Someone write that down.



#28198: — 06/12  at  03:52 PM
you could probably number each of the responses
To some extent the numbering system on TalkOrigins already does that. Many people don't like numbers though, eg lists of fallacies (or mathematical proofs) tend to have names instead (and of course the Latin ones annoy other groups of people!).

I can sort of see a comic exercise in turning it into a spoof Chinese restaurant though. Creationist (or spotter) comes in spouting 2nd law, moon dust and IC. The person serving says "oh, you mean you want a number 5, 21 and 38 to go", dishes them out and wraps them up. As a site concept, it should probably have a today's special too. Since this is likely to be a US problem, the server should also ask whether they want fries with that. I'm not familiar enough with those sort of numbered menus to be able to figure out which argument should be which item though.



#28201: Alon Levy — 06/12  at  04:16 PM
If I recall correctly, the numbering is based on sections, so for example starters may be 1-12, soups may be 13-17, and so on until desserts are 61-69. Taking the entire list of creationist arguments on the talk.origins FAQ and renumbering the arguments sequentially can do the trick.



#28202: coturnix — 06/12  at  04:19 PM
I want my Fortune Cookie at the end of the meal. If I enter the lucky numbers in the lottery I will win millions! wink



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