Pharyngula

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Sunday, June 12, 2005

Whoops, he did it again!

You must take a look at this. That weblogger I criticized for his flawed understanding of science has replied in his comment thread, and Oh. My. Gob. He defends young-earth creationism with the ancient, long-discredited moon dust, thermodynamics, helium, and magnetic fields arguments. It's like a creationist who has been frozen in a glacier since the 1960s, only to emerge blinking into the light and parrot his long-dead religious dogma again.

He does bring up a new argument, but I think I'll pass this one on to Coturnix—he should have fun with it. He thinks circadian rhythms indict evolution.

Finally, let's look at circadian rhythms and the age of the earth. Investigation of nearly all of the earth's living organisms including microorganisms, plants, animals and humans) reveal the existence of circadian rhythms or biological clocks Numerous scientific studies have clearly deomnstrated that these circadian rhythms are not only widely present in all life forms, but are resistant to any and all external changes in the environment. Studies have shown that these biological rhythms are also endogenous or built-in genetically. How did these 24 hour rhythms get there in the first place? Obviously, they had to have been programmed initially into all biological life forms by the Creator (Jesus Christ) himself.

Uh, wow. I'm itching to mention that circadian rhythms vary in different organisms, few have a 24 hour clock, and that there are lots of mutations and known natural variants that change the clock's timing…but like I said, Coturnix would use this guy as a light warmup.

I've got to mention this one, though: I've encountered it in a prior encounter with a creationist. It's the leap second argument.

Life as we know it, under no circumtances, could function very long with any significant deviation from a 24 hour day. In conjunction with the gradual deceleration of the earth's rotation namely 1.9 seconds every 100 years, then just one million theoretical years ago, an earth day would last about 18.7 hours; two million theoretical years ago, the day would have lasted 13.4 hours; and only four million theoretical years ago, an earth day would last a mere 2.8 hours. Living creatures could not possibly adapt or survive in any of these abbreviated environments.

The rate of the earth's rotation is slowing down, but not at anything like 1.9 seconds per century; it's closer to a millisecond per century. The predicted changes in day length are actually in close agreement with measurements of daily growth patterns in fossils from hundreds of millions of years ago. The only way you can get such grossly wrong estimates of ancient day lengths is by misunderstanding leap seconds.

Leap seconds are added now and then to bring the measurements of clocks into alignment with actual time; it's an artifact of consistent, predictable error in the measuring devices. The last time I heard a creationist triumphantly claim that the atomic clocks proved that the earth was slowing down at such a pace that it would have had to have been whirling at an impossibly rapid speed mere millions of years ago, I had to trump him by bringing up leap years.

Did you know we have to add an extra day to the year every four years? That means the year was 25 days shorter a century ago. In the 17th century, years must have been only 265 days long. Why, in the 6th century, a year would have been only one day long! Clearly, the world couldn't have existed in 1AD, so so much for the Jesus myth. Although, quite interestingly, the time of the calendrical singularity when the year would have been 0 days long coincides somewhat closely with Mohammed and the birth of Islam.

I trust everyone sees the obvious logical error in my calculations. It's the same one this bryanm fellow is making.


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Comments:
#28204: — 06/12  at  05:58 PM
OK, today's creationist fortune cookie (in English) is #92: "Stupidly steadfast, steadfastly stupid."



#28205: — 06/12  at  06:51 PM
You are talking about something similar to the Stith-Thompson index, which numbers all elements of all folklores, so you can cross-reference them.

The longer-day creationist claim is similar to one I heard last month on 'To Every Man an Answer,' on the Calvary Satellite (radio) Network, where troubled fundies ask for advice. It's a hoot. As an objection to an old earth, the preachers told a listener that the Moon is receding by (I forget the figure exactly) a few feet per year, and if you run that backward for a few million years, the Moon and the Earth merge.



's avatar #28206: Virge — 06/12  at  07:06 PM
But what happens if we add up the numbers of a creationist's arguments? Can we thereby determine the number of the beast?

And what happens if you sort all your creationists by order of birthdate, then list all their argument numbers sequentially? Can we start looking for revelatory messages in the "Creationist Code"?

*starts planning a sure-to-be-best-selling book*



#28209: — 06/12  at  07:49 PM
It seems to me that it was very poorly thought-out design not to make all these numbers exact integers. If the creator had made the earth spin correctly, a year would be an exact number of days, a month an exact number of days, a day an exact number of hours, etc. But everything is off by such different numbers. Why couldn't an omnipotent creator do better? Maybe he just wanted to keep us confused?



's avatar #28210: PZ Myers — 06/12  at  07:52 PM
There is a simple answer: The Fall.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#28215: — 06/12  at  08:24 PM
Obviously, it takes more tinkering than just the earths's spin. The moon's orbit around the earth, and the earth's orbit around the sun have to be manipulated in order to get everything to integer numbers. But that shouldn't be a difficult task, considering that all the other constants in the universe were calculated precisely to make it possible for us to exist. Why get the difficult bits right, and not the easy ones? Letting the earth's rotation vary, even slightly, seems to be rather negligent, doesn't it? Sloppy creating, IMNSHO. Fall or no fall, it should have been done more precisely.



#28220: chris — 06/12  at  09:21 PM
Look, guys, the creator only had 6 days, and he had to spend the bulk of those creating things like light, and playtpi, and getting the important, life-sustaining numbers right. Perhaps if he had created the universe in 8 or 9 days, he might have gotten around to making the length of days and years good round numbers. The year, for instance, might be exactly 360 days, instead of the strange 365, and the day would be 20, or maybe 25 hours, and if he were a Michael Jordan fan, 23 hours.

I just don't understand why you guys are so demanding.



#28221: coturnix — 06/12  at  09:24 PM
But, if narrow-mided's calculations are right, God really had to do the crating in a hurry - after all, the days were infinitesimally short back then...



#28226: — 06/12  at  10:04 PM
I don't know, Chris, I've always thought turnabout was fair play. I hereby proclaim the concept of the science-of-the-gaps. Clearly an omnipotent, omniscient creator could have gotten things just right, even in just 6 days. Mistakes like non-integer years prove that Christianity is flawed, and therefore evolution is an equally valid religious theory. From now on, evolution must be taught alongside Genesis in all Sunday schools.



#28235: — 06/13  at  12:18 AM
"the Creator (Jesus Christ) himself."

Uhm. Somebody should tell our good creationist friend that nowhere is any version of Christian mythology is it claimed that Jesus Christ created anything. Why waste time arguing with a religious zealot who apparently doesn't even understand his own religion?



#28237: chris — 06/13  at  01:03 AM
Beth,
I think we should call it "Intelligent Science Theory," or IS for short. We can start an institute, with Dr. Myers as the head, called the Revelation Institute (the irony being that a religious institute calls itself Discovery, while a scientific institute calls itself Revelation). We'll petition Sunday school boards everywhere to at least put stickers on their Bibles that read, "This Book contains material on God. God is just a theory. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." We can also petition them to put a section in the Bible on evolution, noting that it is an alternative to the creation stories of Genesis.

This will be great!



's avatar #28241: Virge — 06/13  at  02:28 AM
Jonathan wrote:
"the Creator (Jesus Christ) himself."

Uhm. Somebody should tell our good creationist friend that nowhere is any version of Christian mythology is it claimed that Jesus Christ created anything. Why waste time arguing with a religious zealot who apparently doesn't even understand his own religion?

I'm afraid there is a strong movement in Christian mythology that credits Jesus as the creator. It follows *ahem* logically from the idea of the trinity--God in three persons--having existed as a trinity before Christ's incarnation as a human, and existing after Christ's human death. They'll claim biblical support for that position in places like John chapter 1. i.e.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

I think you'll find the view that the "word" here refers to "Jesus" is very common in Christian fundamentalist circles.

It's a good idea for scientists not to argue religion with religious people, because they invariably find that religion is far weirder than they ever thought it could be.

It's also a good idea for creationists not to argue science with scientists because they invariably find that science is far weirder than they ever thought it could be.



#28248: — 06/13  at  04:16 AM
There is a simple answer: The Fall.

Now, PZ, I know you were probably being facetious. And it's true, that since Adam and Eve were in the Earth's inertial frame, that no matter how hard they Fell, they wouldn't have been able to impart any net change of velocity to the Earth.

But don't forget the Fall of Lucifer and a third of the Heavenly Host with Him. Since they Fell into Hell, which being Down from here must be in the Center of the Earth, it's quite possible that they slowed down its rotation along Their way, since they Fell from Heaven (presumably outside Earth's inertial frame). I also bet that it was the laziest and therefore fattest of the Angels that said "non serviam", so the effect might have been considerable. And being sinister, they naturally fell toward the left (west) side of the Earth, which would account for the rotation being slowed and not sped up.



#28266: — 06/13  at  09:14 AM
I think you'll find the view that the "word" here refers to "Jesus" is very common in Christian fundamentalist circles.


Well, since I love to nitpick, I'll point out that such a view is very common in virtually all Christian circles, fundamentalist or not. John 1:14 is pretty unequivocal: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,..." The concept of the Trinity is undisputed in virtually all remaining versions of Christianity. Now, the Catholic and Orthodox churches could never get together over whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son, but that's a different inexplicable issue from whether Jesus helped out making the universe.

Personally, I think that division of labor makes sense, so that the three aspects of the Trinity stick to their own jobs. This would square better with the Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva trinity in Hinduism. Hmm, maybe Christians wouldn't like that comparison, though.

It's a good idea for scientists not to argue religion with religious people, because they invariably find that religion is far weirder than they ever thought it could be.


Yes, but just like arguing about Star Trek continuity, it can be fun. It's somehow satisfying to drive a Christian fundamentalist to mutter about the Devil quoting scripture for his own ends. Oh, and Picard beats Kirk hands down. grin



#28267: Chris — 06/13  at  09:15 AM
This has been great. Has anyone considered, or actually gone about, creating a website with mock creationist arguments like these? It would be really funny if it could be promoted as a real creationist website. We might then see some of the mock arguments (like the Fall causing changes in the Earth's spin) used by real creationists.



#28283: Alon Levy — 06/13  at  11:53 AM
<i>Yes, but just like arguing about Star Trek continuity, it can be fun. It's somehow satisfying to drive a Christian fundamentalist to mutter about the Devil quoting scripture for his own ends. Oh, and Picard beats Kirk hands down.</i>

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't Picard the actor who played Kirk?



#28288: — 06/13  at  12:49 PM
Patrick Stewart plays Captain Jean-Luc Picard in Star Trek: The Next Genration, while William Shatner plays Captain Kirk in the orginal series.

And now we have more or less seen my entire Star Trek knowledge displayed.



#28295: Alon Levy — 06/13  at  01:22 PM
You mean Jean-Luc Picard isn't a real actor?

(After a check on IMDB) Oh, shit. I thought Jean-Luc Picard was an actual actor, who for instance played the bad guy in Conspiracy Theory, but now I see that was Patrick Stewart... And I wondered why in Futurama's Where No Fan Has Gone Before they had William Shatner but not Jean-Luc Picard.



#28297: — 06/13  at  01:47 PM
The latest post on that thread at the time of writing is the impressively emphatic and conclusive-sounding:
Larry Booher is a hero.
a)Chromosome numbers of species fracture evolutionary phylogenies.
b)Mechanisms of meiosis serve to FIX the chromosome numbers of species
a+b=evolution is entirely fallacious
So how do you protect the civil liberties of schoolchildren?
By teaching them a theory which is entirely fallacious?
Or by telling them that a fallacy is a fallacy?
Would someone more scientifically literate than myself care to explain why this is drivel? (I'm assuming it is given the lack of references and the fact that this guy sincerely believes he's undermined the entire history of evolutionary thought in just two sentences)



#28308: — 06/13  at  03:55 PM
I'm feeling kinda dim today and need some 'splainin'. While traveling recently I was listening to the audio version of Don't Know Much About the Universe. There it is stated that the length of an earth day is 23h, 56min and change. When we talk about leap seconds, I always thought that the 24 hour thing was pretty darn close to the actual length of the day. How can this be? My only guess is that in a day's time, the earth has travelled far enough to change the time of apparent sunrise by 3+ minutes. And 3.9 minutes X 365.25 is real close to 24 hours. Am I at least barking up the right tree?



#28309: Alon Levy — 06/13  at  04:36 PM
The length of the sidereal day, that is the rotational period of the planet with respect to the rest of the galaxy, is 23:56. As you suspect, the solar day is 24:00 because of the Earth's orbiting the Sun. Since the hour was originally defined according to the length of the day, the solar rotational period is naturally a round number.

Now, I think you're barking up the right tree about the difference. When Earth reaches the same position it occupied last year relative to the Sun, 365.25 days have passed on Earth. However, during each day the planet rotated slightly more than a full rotation in order to compensate for its orbit. After a year, these slight additions have totaled one day exactly. The only other planet for which I have both the solar day and the rotational period is Mars, where indeed multiplying the difference by the length of the year gives just over one orbital period (25 hours vs. 24:37).



#28468: — 06/14  at  11:18 PM
Leap seconds are caused by the slowing of the Earth. But the creationists are confused in thinking that leap seconds show the rate of slowing while it really is the accumulated error.

The page at http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/leapsec.html explains it pretty well.

Since the second was defined, the Earth has slowed 2 ms. Over an average of 500 days, the difference between the Earth's rotation (UTC) and atomic clocks (TAI) accumulates to a second and they add a leap second to bring them back into sync. The Earth's rotation isn't reliable; since 1999 there hasn't been a leap second added.



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