Pharyngula

Pharyngula has moved to http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

Friday, May 20, 2005

Who's got the stem cells? Not us.

The new breakthrough in cloning from South Korea is terrific news, but in many ways it's not at all surprising. Cloning by transplanting somatic cells into enucleated ova has been around for decades—we all knew that all it would take to get it done in humans was persistence and meticulous diligence and practice, practice, practice. This is not to belittle the accomplishment of Hwang's team, who have done an amazing job, but to point out what must be the frustration of being a reproductive biologist in GW Bush's America.

Carl Zimmer discusses the ironies involved:

Leonard Krishtalka, the director of the Kansas University Natural History Museum, was quoted pointing out how Kansas is raising $500 million to foster a bioscience and biotech industry in the state. It was ironic, he said, that the state's board of education was simultaneously "trying to remove and water down the basic fundamental concept of evolution that underlies all of biology."

Case in point: try to imagine a stem cell therapy company deciding where to set up shop. I doubt they'd be excited about a state that doesn't make sure their high school students understood mutations, natural selection, the origin of species, the fossil record, and all the other elements of evolutionary biology--that thinks it's fine just to claim that the broken sugar gene in our genome was just stuck there for reasons unknown by some mysterious designer.

Everything in biology is connected. You don't get to pick and choose which piece you should 'believe' in, and which pieces to reject, on anything other than the evidence. When the Kansas school board says they refuse to accept the central principles of biology, they don't get to turn around and say, "we'd like the benefits of cutting edge biomedical technology, please." When you cut down the tree, you don't get the apples.

And oh, the possible benefits! The South Korean cell lines have interesting sources, as a Science news article describes:

Nine of the 11 cell lines are derived from people, ranging in age from 10 to 56, who have suffered spinal cord injuries. The team has begun to test some of the lines in animal models of spinal cord injury, but Hwang cautions that they remain years away from transplanting the cells into people. "We have to be overconvinced" that the cells are safe, he says.

Another line is derived from a 2-year-old boy who has congenital hypogammaglobulonemia, a genetic immune deficiency. In theory, scientists could correct the genetic defect in the stem cells and then reinject them into the boy. Indeed, Jaenisch, Daley, and their colleagues have used such a strategy to treat mice with a similar genetic defect. Nevertheless, Hwang stresses that the boy's parents and the spinal cord patients were explicitly told that the team's research was unlikely to help them directly--even though the informed consent form used was, by Korean law, mandated to suggest such a possibility.

Although also unlikely to be employed for treatment, another ES cell line, derived from a 6-year-old type 1 diabetes patient, should interest scientists. "The possibility of being able to study disease in a culture dish is very exciting," says Douglas Melton of Harvard University, who has recently received permission from the school's ethics committee to derive ES cells from diabetes patients. "If we could make T cells and β cells in a dish--we're not there yet, but we're getting closer--then we could compare the diabetic cells to wild-type cells and ask what goes wrong," he explains. "For the first time we will have a chance to study the root causes of the disease."

Do you know anyone with diabetes? How do you think doctors will ever come up with a cure? These are the tools biomedical researchers need.

Of course, there will always be ethical issues. This isn't trivial stuff, and it isn't easy. Here's one problem that will have the religious right screaming (and troubles me a bit, too).

One important factor in his team's success, Hwang says, was the use of freshly harvested oocytes from fertile women instead of ones left over from fertility treatments. The age of donors may also be key. Whereas oocytes from women in their 30s yielded on average one ES cell line for every 30 tries, those from younger donors yielded one line for every 13 tries. In nine cases, it took only a single donation of oocytes from a woman to produce a new line. (Each donation yields about 10 oocytes.)

The religious right will freak out because of goofy ideas about the sacredness of eggs, but I don't like it because it is more incentive to take advantage of young women, although at least the National Academies discourage payment for oocytes. The thing is, I think the way to get over this ethical hurdle is to allow scientists to do the research and figure out how to improve success rates, minimize oocyte use, and streamline the whole process. Burying our heads in dogma does not solve any problems.


Vogel G (2005) Korean Team Speeds Up Creation Of Cloned Human Stem Cells. Science 308(5725):1096-1097.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2316/JiR3bWqA/

Comments:
#25365: andy — 05/20  at  08:53 AM
You don't get to pick and choose which piece you should 'believe' in, and which pieces to reject,

But they're so good at picking and choosing from their own Bible, playing a la carte Christianity, that it's only natural they'd do the same with science.



#25375: — 05/20  at  09:58 AM
Let's not forget that it's not only the Koreans making breakthroughs in this area - a British team have been doing so too (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/story/0,12976,1488685,00.html).



#25380: — 05/20  at  10:03 AM
The religious right will freak out because of goofy ideas about the sacredness of eggs, but I don't like it because it is more incentive to take advantage of young women...

What? Will fathers really be dragging their teenage daughters off the street asking for payment for their eggs?

You could just as well say that the option for young men to donate to sperm banks is more incentive to take advantage of them.

I wouldn't discount the altruistic feelings on the part of women who may be willing to part with some of their eggs either.



's avatar #25381: — 05/20  at  10:12 AM
I have been a fan of Pharyngula for a year and I think this is its most important post. It clearly shows the dilemma of teaching Creationism while striving to not to be left behind in biotechnology and medicine. America should not fear low-paid Indian biologists "stealing" their jobs, but Korean scientists "stealing" their future industries. BTW, South Korea is a Christian country.

In a side comment, I think one of the reasons America is leading and has almost monopolized the world fertility industry is because - contrary to the rest of the world - it is done on a commercial basis, and donors are paid according to market rate. PZ, no one is taking advantage of young women. Well, that is for another argument. The post is very important, it shows that Creationism is not just incredible & absurd, but it harms American national interest.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#25382: Hank Fox — 05/20  at  10:15 AM
There's a hopeful side issue here.

The brainless, vicious anti-evolution/anti-science/anti-education/anti-freedom types can take over the education syste (and government, and whatever else they can win) in Kansas if they like, and if Kansans let them. They can do the same in Florida, or Texas, or any state in the U.S.

But they can't do it in Kansas and Florida and Texas AND South Korea. Even if the whole of the United States is taken over by reactionary christianity, even if they kill every one of our American ideals and we become a third-rate country of lying theocrats and frightened, ignorant, obedient peasants, they can't do it everywhere.

What's happening here in the U.S. heartland is personally disturbing to us here in the U.S. But I imagine those of us who live in England are merely bemused by it. Those of us in Australia chuckle at the silliness of it all. And those of us in South Korea are getting on with this exciting work.

It's kinda like having a big, ugly rat in your house (apologies to the genus Rattus, and all rat fans). It seems especially scary or disgusting or whatever ... but only because it's close. The rat next door isn't as scary, and the rat in your auntie's house halfway around the world is little more than a funny story.

Okay, so we have rats in Kansas.

It's definitely worth opposing them in Kansas, and elsewhere here in the U.S., to try to minimize the amount of needless misery, ignorance and death they WILL cause our own geographic/national compatriots. But elsewhere in the world – in South Korea, for instance – the rats have, once again, lost a good bit of ground.

I guess I like to think of it this way: Most of us who visit Pharyngula carry dual citizenship. We’re citizens of whatever countries we were born into, but we’re also citizens of the Nation of Mind.

And in THAT country, our truest homeland, good stuff continues to happen.



's avatar #25383: PZ Myers — 05/20  at  10:23 AM
Young men donating sperm aren't facing invasive and disruptive hormonal treatments, followed by a rather painful surgery.

I'm not worried about fathers selling off their daughters' eggs. It's more subtle than that. Some women are getting paid $10,000 for the right to harvest their eggs, and the concern is that this kind of economic coercion is something that could be misused. I think altruistic donations are to be commended, but the stuff women have to go through to extract a set of eggs is fairly intense, and that would be very altruistic of them.

It's just like working in a strip club. It's a tempting opportunity for healthy young ladies, and it's something we shouldn't arbitrarily close off, but we also have to be aware that these things also have other costs...and it definitely isn't a productive career move.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#25385: — 05/20  at  10:40 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/20/bush.stem.cells/

Friday, May 20, 2005 Posted: 11:43 AM EDT (1543 GMT)
(CNN) -- President Bush on Friday threatened to veto a bill expanding public funding for embryonic stem cell research that could make it to his desk by early next week.

"I made [it] very clear to the Congress that the use of federal money, taxpayers' money, to promote science which destroys life in order to save life, I'm against that," Bush told reporters. "Therefore if the bill does that, I will veto it."
...



#25387: Hank Fox — 05/20  at  10:50 AM
I'm a bit fuzzy on what's possible here, but I remember reading recently that researchers were hoping to create mice with brains made entirely out of human neurons.

Is it possible mice, or sheep or something, could eventually be tinkered with to cause them to produce human egg cells?

So that the question of coercing young women could be bypassed in only a few years?

(Heh. Just a catty side-thought: In the same way the Catholic Church is denying communion, etc., to politicians who favor abortion rights, maybe it's only right that all the fruits of this type of medical research should be denied to all politicians and fundamentalist religious activists who oppose it ... and maybe even their family members. I can already hear the screams. smile )



's avatar #25389: PZ Myers — 05/20  at  10:54 AM
See my comment on Santorum. Change all instances of "Rick Santorum" to "GW Bush". It's still true.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Trackback: Stem Cell Research Tracked on: Trivial Pursuits (66.151.149.25) at 2005 05 20 10:29:24
A brief foray into poliblogging: Look, the question on the ethics of stem cell research is one on which reasonable people can differ.



's avatar #25391: PZ Myers — 05/20  at  11:06 AM
Hank, yes...maybe not just a few years, but eventually. Eggs are just another cell type, and ovaries are just another organ. Same for sperm and testes.

Of course, the fun part about bioethics is that if we let science proceed to make one problem irrelevant, it will have succeeded in generating whole new ethical issues that we hadn't even considered.

The fundamentalists will really freak out when we can take a gay man's skin cell, insert it into an enucleated oocyte, and culture it up into an ovary in a dish, and extract eggs from it that could then be fertilized by the man's partner. Similarly, there may be a receptive market for lab grown lesbian testes.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



's avatar #25392: yami — 05/20  at  11:11 AM
Egg donation is a scary procedure. I looked into it after the Nth ad in the campus paper promised untold gazillions to young women with high SAT scores: you shoot yourself full of hormones for a month, the harvest itself is painful and invasive, there's a nontrivial risk of infertility involved.

But most women aren't getting paid $10,000 for their eggs. A typical payment is on the order of $1,500-$3,000 - which, considering how much time the donor has to spend on clinic visits, getting sick from the hormones and missing work, etc., isn't that far beyond expenses. Larger payments seem to come from creepy eugenicists.

The real question is, will people believe that intelligence, musical and athletic ability, etc., can be inherited through mitochondrial DNA? Because without such beliefs I don't think we'll see the kind of high-end market for nonnucleated oocytes that we have for whole eggs.



#25393: — 05/20  at  11:35 AM
Yeah, well, I have Type 1 diabetes (acquired, not inherited), and I've thought about this -- for about 90 seconds.

I spent longer thinking about when life begins, and I finally decided that the arguments (which I first heard about in Catholic school) based on the magic moment (fertilization, blastomere, ability to survive outside the womb) would never be resolvable.

Being, as I think, a logical and scientificallly oriented person, I asked myself, since there is much less argument about when life ends, is there a purely materialistic metric that, working backward, gives origin of life?

There is. Cell division.

Working backward, the answer is not very comfortable for researches like Professor Myer or Type 1 diabetics.

But there you go.

Anyhow, I've made up my mind. If they come up with a stem-cell treatment for diabetes, I won't be using it.



#25399: — 05/20  at  12:53 PM
I spent longer thinking about when life begins, and I finally decided that the arguments (which I first heard about in Catholic school) based on the magic moment (fertilization, blastomere, ability to survive outside the womb) would never be resolvable.

Being, as I think, a logical and scientificallly oriented person, I asked myself, since there is much less argument about when life ends, is there a purely materialistic metric that, working backward, gives origin of life?

There is. Cell division.

If you think life is sacred, then I presume you don't eat meat or vegetables, as these are derived from living things. Maybe you hold a solemn ceremony every time you clip your finger nails or trim your hair.

Hum a few bars of "every sperm is sacred" (from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life) and think about it some more.



#25402: — 05/20  at  01:13 PM
since there is much less argument about when life ends
Eh?! Did you somehow manage to miss: the centuries of shifting definitions as scientific measurements and medical interventions improved; the ongoing arguments about right to life versus right to die (both invoking dignity as a reason as well as viability); the continuing coma and organ donation controversies (issues of artificial respiration etc and how dead is brain dead just as much as any religious considerations); and the recent Terri Schiavo farce.



#25404: — 05/20  at  01:30 PM
No, I didn't miss 'em. But there's pretty general agreement about flatlining. I'd bet around 90% of Americans are comfortable with that.

There may be some play in there, and even after flatlining there will be some cell division for a few minutes. After that, nada. So that's where I started -- just before that last cell division.

If there's a bright line somewhere between there and the first division after formation of the zygote, you tell me where it is.

byzanteen is a good example of the kind of person who you cannot have a discussion about this question with. I didn't say anything about life being sacred. I specifically said I was looking for a materialist metric. Maybe I failed. But I didn't fail because I sneaked sacredness in.



's avatar #25405: PZ Myers — 05/20  at  01:43 PM
Uh, what? Cell division is the marker for life? That doesn't make any sense at all.

You do realize, I presume, that mitosis is only one part of a cell's metabolic activity, and many cells shut it off completely -- including the neurons of your brain, which made one last terminal division sometime during your fetal or neonatal life, and never divide again.

The first divisions after fertilization also seem to be largely proliferative, without much differentiation going on. You can divide the zygote in two at the first division, for instance, and it will go on to form twins. One life or two?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#25406: — 05/20  at  02:00 PM
"If there's a bright line somewhere between there and the first division after formation of the zygote, you tell me where it is."

It can be absolutely certain that the bright line is much much further along than stage used for this recerch. For one thing a few non differentiated cells has not the ability of the mass of neurons that is the human brain.



#25409: — 05/20  at  02:20 PM
uh... why cell division, in particular? it doesn't seem to me that spermatozoa and oocytes are any less materialistically significant, or any less alive, than cells capable of dividing.

and why do you feel there's that much less debate about when life ends? i've been dabbling in the euthanasia/suicide argument, and it gets pretty damn confusing at times.

and what role, if any, does the concept of personhood ("humanity") play in your line of thinking? after all, all kinds of living things undergo cell division, yet we feel no compunction about killing most of them. if cell division was the only criterion you used, you'd have to live as a Jainist, i suppose.



#25411: Pete — 05/20  at  02:27 PM
You're not taking materialism far enough, though, Harry. You are asking the question "when does life begin", as if there were some (in your exact words) "bright line" demarcating the "living" states of a system from its "nonliving" states. But there is no such line.

Your "logically and scientifically oriented" inquiry also has a major flaw - the sperm and egg came about through cell division too. You now have to add epicycles to your metric ("cell division starting from a fertilized zygote" or some such thing), and then you somehow have to justify those additions, and then it begins to seem even more that you knew the answer you would reach before you began the inquiry.

Scientific facts can help us decide things like where to draw a moral line, but morals aren't just there to be seen by coming up with something - it's not that easy!



's avatar #25414: Ken Cope — 05/20  at  02:31 PM
Life doesn't switch on at some arbitrary time during gestation; every individual has budded as part of one continuous living process reaching back to the first replicating cell.

After a little googling I found the Sagan essay on abortion where I first read that point of view.

It happens to be an interesting look at what sorts of reasoning have been applied to making judgements about when life begins.



#25433: — 05/20  at  05:15 PM
I hardly expected to persuade many people, but on the other hand I am unimpressed by the counterarguments offered here (and elsewhere I've floated this). Suit yourself.

Either human individuals exist or they don't. I think they do.

They are either immortal or they die. I think we die.

How do we know we are dead? I think the polls after the Schiavo situation back me up on when you're dead. There's not much controversy, in the US, about that, except maybe among Christian Scientists. I'm not trying to accommodate them. I was going for the rationalists.

If there's a biological process (aside from cell division) that has ceased but previously was working, you tell me how to recognize it and when it started.

I'm just an amateur, but I think the difference between NO cells dividing any longer and SOME cells no longer dividing in a particular organ is pretty significant.

To answer some specific comments. Christopher, ability to do anything with the dividing cells is not part of my reasoning. That's your bright line. It's qualitative, though. I'm looking for quantitative.

The question 'one life or two' seems meaningless in this context, since the question is 'life' or 'not life.'

Again, I'm not asking what the function of the divisions is, whether they are 'merely proliferative' or differentiating. That seems to be a form of the sentience argument.

If you choose sentience, though, you get into all sorts of problems at the other end. I was looking for something that you can see all through periods we recognize as 'life' and don't see before or after.

Maybe there is no such thing. I considered ATP oxidation, too, but I can't find any difference, temporally, between that and cell division, and I cannot think of anything else.

Nomen, sperm may be alive but they are incapable, by themselves, of forming an individual. One part of my scheme that is not perfectly clear is the status of a frozen embryo. No cell division there, but there's potentia.

What role does 'personhood' play? None, if you mean 'personality.' I'd like to see a definition that avoids any opening for bumping off the retarded, admitting that, maybe , a purely materialistic approach might not give me that.

I'm pleased to say, mine seems not to go there. I'd have liked it to give me a replacement for 73 units of insulin, too, but I didn't get that. Well, the Universe doesn't give a damn about me, does it?

That we care about humans is solipsitic, I guess, but there you are. I eat, therefore I am; and I am, therefore I eat. From a Jainist prespective, it's limited and arbitrary. So be it. If we don't count for something to ourselves, who else is there to count for?



#25435: — 05/20  at  05:24 PM
I'm with Pete (#20). There is no bright line. Life is messy.



#25453: Pete — 05/20  at  06:28 PM
"If there's a biological process (aside from cell division) that has ceased but previously was working, you tell me how to recognize it and when it started."

--Several of us have already told you. It started almost 4.5 billion years ago and hasn't stopped yet, and is ongoing in each one of us.

My suspicion is that you have already made up your mind that it's wrong to destroy a fertilized zygote, and to buttress this conviction you have found a property that seems to draw the line where you want it. (We all do this with our moral intuitions, by the way - so I'm not singling you out. We need other people with different views to point out to us when we're doing this.) You didn't respond to my comment but I'll restate it: your "cell division" metric does not work because sperm and eggs themselves are cells that were produced through cell division - so the process didn't begin with the egg, it began...well, a long time ago.

But this isn't the main objection I have. As I have already said, the entire form of your argument gets off on the wrong foot from the beginning. The form of it is this: you are looking for X, where X is an objectively observable, materialistic property of a system that will tell you, upon a bit of reflection, whether or not it is all right to destroy it. What I am saying is not so much that your choice of X is wrong, but that it's misguided to go looking for such an X in the first place. The only thing that can decide this is a larger discussion of values, morals, ethics, etc., that can be informed by science but not precisely dictated by science.



#25454: — 05/20  at  06:33 PM
What role does 'personhood' play? None, if you mean 'personality.' I'd like to see a definition that avoids any opening for bumping off the retarded, admitting that, maybe , a purely materialistic approach might not give me that.

Are you saying that retarded people have no personalities...?



Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 >

Next entry: No Pharyngula for you!

Previous entry: Now I understand where the IDiots are coming from

<< Back to main

Info

email PZ Myers
Search
Archives
UMM—America's best public liberal arts college