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Friday, May 20, 2005

Who's got the stem cells? Not us.

The new breakthrough in cloning from South Korea is terrific news, but in many ways it's not at all surprising. Cloning by transplanting somatic cells into enucleated ova has been around for decades—we all knew that all it would take to get it done in humans was persistence and meticulous diligence and practice, practice, practice. This is not to belittle the accomplishment of Hwang's team, who have done an amazing job, but to point out what must be the frustration of being a reproductive biologist in GW Bush's America.

Carl Zimmer discusses the ironies involved:

Leonard Krishtalka, the director of the Kansas University Natural History Museum, was quoted pointing out how Kansas is raising $500 million to foster a bioscience and biotech industry in the state. It was ironic, he said, that the state's board of education was simultaneously "trying to remove and water down the basic fundamental concept of evolution that underlies all of biology."

Case in point: try to imagine a stem cell therapy company deciding where to set up shop. I doubt they'd be excited about a state that doesn't make sure their high school students understood mutations, natural selection, the origin of species, the fossil record, and all the other elements of evolutionary biology--that thinks it's fine just to claim that the broken sugar gene in our genome was just stuck there for reasons unknown by some mysterious designer.

Everything in biology is connected. You don't get to pick and choose which piece you should 'believe' in, and which pieces to reject, on anything other than the evidence. When the Kansas school board says they refuse to accept the central principles of biology, they don't get to turn around and say, "we'd like the benefits of cutting edge biomedical technology, please." When you cut down the tree, you don't get the apples.

And oh, the possible benefits! The South Korean cell lines have interesting sources, as a Science news article describes:

Nine of the 11 cell lines are derived from people, ranging in age from 10 to 56, who have suffered spinal cord injuries. The team has begun to test some of the lines in animal models of spinal cord injury, but Hwang cautions that they remain years away from transplanting the cells into people. "We have to be overconvinced" that the cells are safe, he says.

Another line is derived from a 2-year-old boy who has congenital hypogammaglobulonemia, a genetic immune deficiency. In theory, scientists could correct the genetic defect in the stem cells and then reinject them into the boy. Indeed, Jaenisch, Daley, and their colleagues have used such a strategy to treat mice with a similar genetic defect. Nevertheless, Hwang stresses that the boy's parents and the spinal cord patients were explicitly told that the team's research was unlikely to help them directly--even though the informed consent form used was, by Korean law, mandated to suggest such a possibility.

Although also unlikely to be employed for treatment, another ES cell line, derived from a 6-year-old type 1 diabetes patient, should interest scientists. "The possibility of being able to study disease in a culture dish is very exciting," says Douglas Melton of Harvard University, who has recently received permission from the school's ethics committee to derive ES cells from diabetes patients. "If we could make T cells and β cells in a dish--we're not there yet, but we're getting closer--then we could compare the diabetic cells to wild-type cells and ask what goes wrong," he explains. "For the first time we will have a chance to study the root causes of the disease."

Do you know anyone with diabetes? How do you think doctors will ever come up with a cure? These are the tools biomedical researchers need.

Of course, there will always be ethical issues. This isn't trivial stuff, and it isn't easy. Here's one problem that will have the religious right screaming (and troubles me a bit, too).

One important factor in his team's success, Hwang says, was the use of freshly harvested oocytes from fertile women instead of ones left over from fertility treatments. The age of donors may also be key. Whereas oocytes from women in their 30s yielded on average one ES cell line for every 30 tries, those from younger donors yielded one line for every 13 tries. In nine cases, it took only a single donation of oocytes from a woman to produce a new line. (Each donation yields about 10 oocytes.)

The religious right will freak out because of goofy ideas about the sacredness of eggs, but I don't like it because it is more incentive to take advantage of young women, although at least the National Academies discourage payment for oocytes. The thing is, I think the way to get over this ethical hurdle is to allow scientists to do the research and figure out how to improve success rates, minimize oocyte use, and streamline the whole process. Burying our heads in dogma does not solve any problems.


Vogel G (2005) Korean Team Speeds Up Creation Of Cloned Human Stem Cells. Science 308(5725):1096-1097.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2316/ndUvk3ev/

Comments:
#25457: — 05/20  at  06:51 PM
fertilized ova are alive, but they too are unable, by themselves, to form a human individual. there's rather a lot that needs to be done to get from there to here, as i'm sure our host could explain.

i think the Terri Schiavo case is an excellent example of what "personhood" might mean, and particularly of why it's an important concept in the debate over what "death" might mean. her cells had surely not ceased dividing (well, except for the lines you would expect to have ceased dividing long ago -- including, as has been remarked, those that made up her brain), yet there was debate over whether or not she was "dead".

note that i did not say there was reasonable debate. i think the naysayers in that case had all the credibility, and all the evidentiary support, as well as all the reasoned argument, of young-earth creationists. but there was debate, and that tells me the notion of "personhood" does indeed matter, for what else could the debate have been about? it matters more than any purely biological process; it must, because Terri possessed almost every biological process you and i do, and that "almost" is only there to hedge because i'm not a biologist or a doctor. nonetheless, she was dead.

so personhood is important. but it is not, to the best of my knowledge, tied to cell division, and i see no way to so tie it -- hence, i still do not see why you think cell division is of any concern here.

even more to the point, if spermatozoa and unfertilized eggs are alive, then cell division cannot matter to the status of being "alive". you yourself just admitted they are alive. the only way they can divide is purely in potentia, but treating potential cell division as though it were actual capability is plainly unreasonable. the same goes for confusing any potentiality for the real thing, of course.

and if we're going to blatantly up and consider our own species more important than any other species whose cells also divide, without giving any further reason for this assumption, then i believe we'll be swallowing a much larger camel than the mere gnat of whether or not cell division matters at all. there are some good ways to defend speciesism and anthropocentrism, but the sort of philosophical artillery you have to resort to then make anything single-celled quite irrelevant by comparison.



's avatar #25464: Ken Cope — 05/20  at  07:24 PM
Countless zygotes are destroyed as part of standard fertility strategies without a murmur of disapproval from all but a handful of the most marginal among anti-choice activists.

Every blastocyst has the potential to become autonomous life, or to be sacrificed in service to the rest of humanity for unlocking the secrets of health and longevity for subsequent generations, or to be spontaneously aborted before anybody ever knew it existed. Should our increasing technological sophistication require us to be more moral than nature? If every cell in our body is a potential clone, will we each become mass murderers through our failure to apply cloning technology? Is our moral culpability dependant on our capacity to affect change technologically?

It's a moral decision to not attempt to treat diabetes and ALS and MS by blocking some research avenues otherwise open to us. People have always died of horrible diseases, and spontaneous abortions have always outnumbered the intentional. For potential individuals to trump the hope for recovery among fully aware human beings makes no sense to me.



's avatar #25475: — 05/20  at  10:18 PM
Anyhow, I've made up my mind. If they come up with a stem-cell treatment for diabetes, I won't be using it.


Harry, you will not be helping anyone by condemning yourself to suffer diabetes. On the contrary.

Quod natura non sunt turpia



#25491: Alon Levy — 05/21  at  02:59 AM
Harry, for ethical purposes you can't base personhood on biological process. Morally, personhood is based on the concept of a rational being; hence, humans need to be protected, but not mice, even though both species are alive. Since a blastula doesn't even have a brain, it can't be a rational being when an ant, which does, is not. The fact that undifferentiated human cells divide shouldn't matter, because so do bacteria, which are clearly not rational beings.



#25493: Alon Levy — 05/21  at  03:32 AM
A minor note, by the way: please stop exalting American values. To everyone who knows about the United States' foreign policy record, American values include continually rape of Latin America, promoting fascism in the third world, and bombing countries that don't tow the line. Christian fanatics don't go against the United States' values, but against the United States' professed values.



#25496: — 05/21  at  04:19 AM
By golly, I had expected to have to defend my idea, but I had not expected that (I presume) evolutionists would question the existence of individuals. I'm flummoxed.

Patrick, people do.

Ken, I don't think 'increasing technical sophistication' requires us to be more moral than nature. But we'd better be for some reason. Nature is not moral.

Alon, where did I praise American values?

Well, if you can't base personhood on biological process, and life is messy and there aren't any materially determinable bright lines, then I guess you have to fall back on some variety of mysticism.



#25498: Alon Levy — 05/21  at  05:03 AM
I wasn't talking to you about American values, but to Hank Fox (reply #5). Sorry for the confusion.

You don't have to fall back on mysticism to determine personhood. You can comfortably base it on neurological processes, which is the only way you can justify killing bacteria and eating plants.



#25499: — 05/21  at  05:09 AM
Harry Eager says

Well, if you can't base personhood on biological process, and life is messy and there aren't any materially determinable bright lines, then I guess you have to fall back on some variety of mysticism.


No, you just do what you do in every other situation. You draw the line somewhere in between the extremes with the realization that the exact point is somewhat arbritrary because reality doesn't come in "bright lines".



#25501: — 05/21  at  06:15 AM
Harry none of the people here deny the existence of individuality/individuals. That argument only makes sense if they were arguing from your viewpoint. As it is, they are explaining why they think your viewpoint is wrong, and thus can't be expected to define individuality/individuals based upon your presumptions.



#25506: — 05/21  at  08:11 AM
The complete lyrics:

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/every-sperm-is-sacred.html


Every Sperm Is Sacred
Monty Python

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.




GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!



's avatar #25520: Ken Cope — 05/21  at  09:40 AM
Right Harry, nature is not moral, it's wasteful; massive stem cell research could never keep up with nature's profligate spontaneous abortions.

Technological sophistication adds to our moral responsibility to endeavor to eradicate disease and suffering. If at some time we acquire the capacity to artificially gestate every zygote to full term, no culture I'm aware of is prepared to provide for every theoretically potential person.

Why condemn the living to avoidable suffering?



#25531: — 05/21  at  12:51 PM
A question, a suggestion, and an observation.

Q:If a female donates the nucleus to the egg cell from which the nucleus has been removed, who is the father of that cell?

S: Perhaps researchers could address some of the ethical issues by investigating, with non-humans, the rate of spontaneous abortions of these types of cells. If the rate of spontaneous abortions of these cells was equal to or greater than the rate of normally-fertilized cells, then the ethical dilemma would certaily be diminished.

O:Kudos to the Koreans, but don't that just emphsize the diminution of our scientific prowess that President Bush wants to increase by threatening to veto any cloning bill, and that would increase even more if a handfull of zealots manage to change science teaching standards?



's avatar #25536: PZ Myers — 05/21  at  01:07 PM
In that example, the egg cell is a clone of the female donor, so genetically speaking the father would be the father of the donor.

I don't know that the spontaneous abortion rate is an issue. These are cells that are only grown in culture.

And yes, Bush is an idiot who is damaging the progress of science.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



Trackback: The Stark Defect: A Case Study in Ideological Att Tracked on: The Liberal Avenger (72.9.234.70) at 2005 05 21 14:20:35
Here we have George W. Bush, the leader of the Republican Party, forcing the scientific community into two ideological camps: those that wish to save life "by preserving it" and those wish the same by "destroying it".



#25583: — 05/21  at  10:15 PM
Good, Harry. I think it would be neat to get every conservative Christian to sign a solemn vow that neither they nor their spouses nor children would ever allow themselves to benefit from any medical discoveries arising out of stem cell research.

(Just to be on the safe side, seeing as how there's nothing to this silly evolution business, they should also refuse any medicine or medical procedure which had been tested on animals first.)

Just out of curiosity, Harry, do you think Bush would refuse stem cell therapy at some point later in his life, if he discovered he had Parkinson's, or diabetes, or some such?

My own opinion is that he would. Further, if it wasn't available in this country, I'll bet he'd fly to Switzerland, or South Korea, or wherever he had to, to get the treatment. Considering that he'll be an ex-president, with slam-bang retirement benefits, it will probably be paid for by U.S. taxpayers, too.

Jeez, too bad all of us aren't so blessed.



#25588: — 05/21  at  10:46 PM
"Everything in biology is connected. You don't get to pick and choose which piece you should 'believe' in, and which pieces to reject, on anything other than the evidence"

That's an hilarious statement coming from someone who chooses not believe in the existence of evolved racial differences.



#25601: Alon Levy — 05/22  at  02:34 AM
In that example, the egg cell is a clone of the female donor, so genetically speaking the father would be the father of the donor.

Does it mean that it's going to produce offspring genetically equivalent to offspring produced out of sexual relations between the donor and her father? If so then this is going to cause inbreeding problems.

That's an hilarious statement coming from someone who chooses not believe in the existence of evolved racial differences.

Oh yeah, one of the centerpieces of biology is equivalent to a fringe viewpoint whose best way to propagate itself is presenting itself as oppressed.



#25607: — 05/22  at  03:27 AM
No, it's a clone. Its offspring would be approximately the same as if they had been the offspring of the donor. Her father would be the grandfather of those offspring.



#25611: — 05/22  at  04:57 AM
Perhaps researchers could address some of the ethical issues by investigating, with non-humans, the rate of spontaneous abortions of these types of cells. If the rate of spontaneous abortions of these cells was equal to or greater than the rate of normally-fertilized cells, then the ethical dilemma would certaily be diminished.


Certainly not. 90% of those cute baby bunnies have to die to have a stable population. Nature is profligate in excess, and we - specially we evolutionists - do not derive moral conclusions from nature. Nature is indifferent, teaches nothing about human ethics.

Since this is an area where anybody is entitled to have an opinion, I venture to say that if women cries for a dead fertilized ovum, that zygote was a person. If a woman cries for a second-month aborted fetus, it was a person. If the same fetus is spontaneously or artifically aborted without the woman noticing it, it was not a person, it did not exist.



#25628: — 05/22  at  07:15 PM
You'd have to ask George, Hank.

I am appalled by the lack of serious response to my proposal.

Not that nobody is buying it. I expected that, because the conclusion is unwelcome to the general opinion here. OK. But where is the alternative materialist conception?

The closest we've got is the utilitarian argument. Utilitarian arguments are the weakest kind, and the one on offer is the weakest of the weak: It might help somebody.

And if, in the end, it doesn't, it was wrong?

This is an atheism-friendly site, right? Not only is no one else trying for a materialist concept, several posters have explicitly denied that a materialist (scientific, what word you will) approach can have any validity.

Think politically, folks. If that's right you've surrendered the game to the metaphysicians, and they are not your friends.

Let's present a real-world test: the Bantus espouse a non-materialist, unscientific view of natural history that says twins are accursed. (I don't know, or care, exactly why they think this; it is enough that they do.) So when twins are born, the set the live infants in front of a herd of cattle to be trampled.

Query: Which side of the non-bright line is this on? Give reasons. If you find this practice dubious, could you give a materialist/scientific argument against it? Or do you have to fall back on mysticism and religion (religion broadly defined)?



#25631: — 05/22  at  07:59 PM
i kindof hope this site is atheist-friendly, seeing as i've been a strong atheist all my adult life. but, frankly, the reason i for one am not proposing any alternatives to your idea is twofold:

(1), the ethical debate over personhood, life, killing, and so on, has been going on for centuries, and has produced enormous amounts of source material that would need to be gone over before we could even list all the bases we'd have to cover. trying to do that in the comments on this one blog post is not doable. but just as importantly:

(2), i still don't see that the option you'd like me to present alternatives to even makes any sense to begin with. i really do not understand your thinking, so i'd like to figure out how that goes before i try to replace it.

oh, and just as a quick aside: it's not that methodological materialism (or even philosophical materialism) is invalid, it's that your insistence on biological processes as being paramount is taking materialism further than most would claim it needs to go in this instance. as has been noted, you could use materialistic notions of neurological processes and/or cognitive abilities to (i believe) far better effect. you seem certain that cell division ought to be of supreme concern to a materialist in this matter; you haven't convinced me, however.



#25643: Pete — 05/23  at  12:35 AM
Harry - my serious response has gone uncommented upon, which makes me think perhaps I shouldn't try again. Well, maybe one more time.

Your proposal is fatally flawed from the beginning because it seeks to use scientific criteria to determine a non-scientific (and not mystical, but moral) distinction. You have been somewhat vague about what exactly your proposal really is, so let me set out what I take it as in a more formal fashion. I will call your proposal H. It has a conclusion and three premises, viz.:

H: "(C): It is wrong to destroy a fertilized zygote, because (1) it is wrong to kill a living human, and (2) one can determine the difference between a member of the set of living humans and a non-member by whether cell division is occurring in the specimen, and (3) a zygote is a member of this set under this definition".

There are many things wrong with H. My main objection is that premise (1) is too inflexible. It seeks to establish a universal moral truth by relying on premise (2) to define the conditions under which it applies. I have stated before that premise (2) does not apply, because cell division has been constantly occurring in an unbroken chain since the very first cell. You have to add additional qualifications to your premise - e.g., "a morally relevant span of cell division is one that begins at each fertilization" - to get over this objection, but the qualifications you must add are precisely those which one would add to arrive at the naive position that it is simply wrong to destroy a zygote. In other words, your scheme H begs the question because it assumes the desired conclusion from the outset.

I still contend that you are mistakenly conmixing a superstitious or supernatural property, i.e., "LIFE", with your otherwise impeccable materialism. It's not that I think that mystical or religious properties must determine moral facts -- far from it, since I'm a positive atheist (I positively endorse the proposition "No deities exist"). I think, rather, that there are no moral facts. There is only behavior interpreted from a moral stance.

Of course, it helps us to be clear about all the facts (that is, the materialistic scientific facts) if we want to make the best possible moral decisions. But we can't find "moral facts" in nature. That is why your proposal is terminally naive. Moral decisions must be made in the moral sphere, taking into account such factors as people's wishes, desires, beliefs, principles, rights, and what we have come to know about the world through science. Your proposal H attempts to take a simple, in fact untenable, definition and use it to ground a universal moral truth. As N.Ns. has just said before me, the ethical problem of life and murder is millenia old and will not be skirted by a simple scheme like H, as much as we would wish it could be.



#25658: Hank Fox — 05/23  at  06:49 AM
ARgh. I correct myself from my most recent post: My own opinion is that he (Bush) would NOT refuse a stem-cell-derived medicine or therapy, at some point later in his life.

Pete, thank you. That was a very clear explanation. (And I wish I'd written it.)



#25697: — 05/23  at  12:11 PM
'people's wishes desires' etc. and 'science.'

Well, if you're a Bantu, wishes and desires are predicated on avoiding the bad juju of twins.

Being a positive atheist is not probative of anything.

So how do you justify not putting the twins in the path of the herd?

The only 'moral fact' I am presenting is that, yes, I do believe that we should not kill non-transgressive members of our own species. ('Transgressive' here is a dangerous word, though. Christians can, and have, used it to kill homosexuals.)

So when is the membership card issued? Until we can say, we cannot know whether the social moral code is in effect or not.

I don't think my proposal is the last word, only the first.

I'm just a poor redneck from the peckerwoods. I'm sure you sophisticates can come up with a better one.



's avatar #25719: Ken Cope — 05/23  at  01:12 PM
Harry, PZ stated his opinion here that the position that "... human life is an absolute that can be defined entirely by material properties of the genome, that there can be such a thing as purely ‘human’ DNA vs. non-human DNA, is the worst kind of simplistically reductionist, dehumanizing thinking."



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