Pharyngula

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Wednesday, March 23, 2005

Wingnuts mangling science again

I am reminded why I don't read wingnut weblogs. It's not just that extremist Republican politics is vile, but that the politics is so often accompanied by other forms of insanity. Case in point: I discover via the World Wide Rant this remarkably arrogant claim from some fool at Wizbang.

The truth is --though you are loath to admit it-- that we don't know jack about the origin of the species. If there is indeed some mechanism built into organisms to repair flawed genes, the whole theory -which is already mathematically astronomically improbable- is now a few dozen more orders of magnitude more improbable. There is something other than DNA that apparently carries some sort of genome and we don't even have a name for it yet, much less understand it!

OK, you can now commence to ranting in the comments about how it is a fact and I'm just some ignorant fool. And make sure you bash religious people... If there is one thing I love to laugh at, it is one religious zealot claiming the other guy is just a religious zealot.

* The nomenclature will always bite you. I don't use "evolution" in the strict definition here, I mean evolution as in the theory that lighting stuck inorganic material and started life that a bazillion years later evolved into every life form on the planet. That version of "evolution" is seriously, seriously flawed.... And no amount of your typing in the comments section will make unflawed.

What could have possibly triggered this eruption of creationist triumphalism? A recent paper in Nature speculates about the discovery of a possible new mechanism that increases the rate of reversions from a particular mutation. This is very interesting stuff, and would be a fascinating new mechanism of DNA repair, a novel non-Mendelian mechanism. Carl Zimmer explains its sigificance in his typically lucid way, while Reed Cartwright suggests a more prosaic alternative. Either way, though, this is no comfort to creationists (although I'm sure we'll hear much more silliness from them about it), and by no means warrants the absurd claims from the Wizbang crackpot. In fact, the Wizbang post is only notable for the hysterical excesses of its claims.

  • "we don't know jack about the origin of the species". Oh, come on. Read some science. We know lots about speciation. We've seen it happen; we have documented mechanisms.
  • "whole theory -which is already mathematically astronomically improbable". Another old chestnut. False, but stereotypical.
  • "the whole theory…is now a few dozen more orders of magnitude more improbable". Don't you love it when a creationist, who hasn't read the paper and clearly has no idea of the magnitude of the observed effect, makes up colossal numbers like "a few dozen more orders of magnitude"?
  • "There is something other than DNA…" No, not necessarily. The paper speculates about RNA, but as mentioned above, Reed suggests a reasonable and conventional alternative. And even if it is RNA, this is not something that salvages creationism or damages evolutionary theory; it's chemistry.
  • "that apparently carries some sort of genome…" No, this is nonsense. Our man from Wizbang is babbling at this point.
  • "we don't even have a name for it yet, much less understand it!" Correct, but it is inappropriate to treat that as some kind of victory for creationism. Creationists understand nothing, which by this logic should mean it would be rejected. We don't understand this phenomenon fully, yet, and so the scientific response is to study it more and test various hypotheses. This is a strength of the scientific method.
  • "I don't use "evolution" in the strict definition here…" Here we go. At least he's honest and admits that he's making stuff up, and is inventing non-standard definitions.
  • "I mean evolution as in the theory that lighting stuck inorganic material and started life that a bazillion years later evolved into every life form on the planet." Gosh, that sure is a stupid guess.
  • "That version of "evolution" is seriously, seriously flawed". Why, yes, we agree. It's very stupid. So why did he make up that version of "evolution"?

This is all thick-witted anti-evolutionist garbage, and it just gets worse: the joker makes several more misguided posts defending his absurdities, and hoo boy, you should take a look at the comments—it's like concentrated stupid people.

And that is why I can't stomach wingnut weblogs.


Trackback url: http://pharyngula.org/index/trackback/2070/Gv62wJin/

Comments:
#19575: CKL — 03/24  at  12:19 AM
P.Z.

You have to admit the wingnuts are worth a couple of laughs. I must admit that I really enjoy visiting some of the more extreme right wing 'blogs. They're funnier than any satire can be.



#19576: — 03/24  at  12:25 AM
As I have posted at De Rerum Nature, I think the paper discusses "reversion" frequency. In no place do the authors' identify increased mutation freqency at any particular site. Additionally, I'm not sure the model proposed here can explain that the paper describes much higher reversion frequency for non-hth mutations in the hth background (they looked an allele of another gene, as well as silent SNPs. I think this rules out selection for HTH over hth. I find the conventional explanation wanting, and think we are truly seeing some new biology here. It, of course, has absolutely no bearing on the truth of evolution, as it is the product of evolutionary processes.



#19577: — 03/24  at  12:26 AM
Hey, the Wizbang replies aren't *all* stupid. The comments on the post about the Nature article include lots of good defenses of the factuality of evolution and corrections to the wingnuts' ignorant claims and illogical leaps.



#19580: ang6666 — 03/24  at  12:44 AM
I'm with CKL. Sometimes you need to read some of the extremes to get a laugh. smile



#19582: — 03/24  at  02:06 AM
I'm with CKL. Sometimes you need to read some of the extremes to get a laugh.

Laugh all you want, but if you don't take them seriously...

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050323freedom.php

TALLAHASSEE — Republicans on the House Choice and Innovation Committee voted along party lines Tuesday to pass a bill that aims to stamp out “leftist totalitarianism” by “dictator professors” in the classrooms of Florida’s universities.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050323/NEWS/503230348/1004

Baxley said he got the idea for the bill from well-known conservative activist David Horowitz. Horowitz's group, Students for Academic Freedom, has pushed for passage of similar bills in all 50 states.

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/



#19583: Matt Moore — 03/24  at  04:27 AM
Please don't think that just because someone is right wing they're stupid. You'd probably disagree with nearly every political post on WWR, or on my site, but you won't find any creationist nonsense.

But the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so take it to Wizbang! on this one.



#19584: — 03/24  at  04:29 AM
I can't believe these people. That guy David Horowitz is always stirring up shite at my campus, San Francisco State University. Admittedly, the students at my school are pretty liberal, and a pro-Bush rally (from all 5 of the campus Republicans) does not go without vociferous opposition, but every teacher I've had has veiled his political beliefs very well, or clearly distinguished his opinion from the remainder of his lecture.

I sincerely doubt there's a large number of professors running about that are penalizing students for not sharing similar opinions. Actually, I wish professors were more intolerant of nonsense when it's mentioned in class. The other day when my political theory class was discussing Justice as talked about by Socrates (via Plato's Republic), this kid in the back of the class raised his hand and said, "Well, I would appeal to authority and ask what Jesus would do in a given situation, and I know it'd be just." I was speechless. My teacher diplomatically said that such a method wouldn't really mesh with what Socrates taught, and I suppose that was the responsible thing to do.

I also had a biology teacher in my first year of college that addressed the concerns of the faithful very effectively. She said, "This is a science class and we are going to study scientific theories that are scientifically testable. I know some people have different ideas on the development of life but that is not in the scope of this class, and you will be held accountable for what is covered in this class." Bam--problem solved. If they wanted to throw out that knowledge upon finishing the course, that was their prerogative.



#19585: — 03/24  at  08:25 AM
"... whole theory -which is already mathematically astronomically improbable ..."

I wonder how he calculates the odds. Does it involve counting on fingers? You know: "One, two, three, infinity."



#19598: — 03/24  at  10:44 AM
Paul is really quite a piece of work. He doesn't understand science but thinks he does and then is totally unable to admit he got it wrong. At that time quite spectacularly and angrily implodes. He's like a mean drunk in that way.

I've found that a little brandy in the coffee while listening to something from Douglas Adams helps the Wizbang go down (that sounds kinda perverted).



Trackback: Evolution Collapses! Tracked on: The World Wide Rant - v3.0 (63.247.140.66) at 2005 03 23 23:40:18
So sayeth Wizbang!My argument about evolution* is and will always be, that all you loud mouth people who accept as some sort of fact etched in stone that man evolved from some primordial ooze are just as religious as the...



Trackback: Wizbang's Big Bad Biology Tracked on: Deinonychus antirrhopus (207.44.162.17) at 2005 03 24 12:29:47
Well looks like Paul has taken another dive into the evolution debate. Most amusingly is that Paul is conflating the theories of evolution with abiogensis. The nomenclature will always bite you. I don't use "evolution" in the strict definition here, I mean evolution as in the theory that lighting stuck inorganic material and started life that a bazillion years later...



#19612: Linkmeister — 03/24  at  12:36 PM
Michael Bérubé has been having a running blog battle with Horowitz for the past couple of weeks. Bérubé dissects him pretty well, I'd say.



's avatar #19614: Stephen Stralka — 03/24  at  12:56 PM
I love the way he tries to innoculate himself against the charge that he's an ignorant zealot. "I'm now going to make a whole bunch of egregiously stupid statements, and you're going to call me stupid, which proves I'm right." In other words (sticking his fingers in his ears), "La la la! I can't hear you!"



#19621: Rana — 03/24  at  01:30 PM
it's like concentrated stupid people

If I had a place where I needed a sig file, I'd be begging permission to use this.



#19664: — 03/24  at  09:19 PM
I enjoy reading the Wizbang guys, including Paul. I come from another science, chemistry, where I get occasionally reviled by an environmentalist, but I've never seen anything like the reaction evolution gets, and the concomitant public scourging biologists get. I'm kind of sorry I got interested in the thread, though. Rancorous and ill-mannered, and ill-informed, too. Yikes.

I grew up in the bible belt, and I recall my 8th grade science teacher (a man who named his first child after some confederate colonel, and spoke often and loudly about it) letting us know he would not cover evolution in his class (again, loudly) as it was UN-scientific (his emphasis in pronouncing it). The class was Earth Science.



#19713: The Commissar — 03/25  at  08:15 AM
Not all conservatives are Creationist idiots. You do a huge disservice to thoughtful debate by conflating the two.

"Apples are red; fire engines are red; apples are fire engine." This apple (me) is no Creationist fire engine, notwithstanding my Red State political views.

You're supposed to be the scientist, the logical one. Why engage in the cheap propaganda fallacies? You can and should be able to win on the facts. If some on the Right also try to conflate politics and science, why lower yourself to that level? It destroys your only source of credibility.

Shame on you.

I say that NOT because of our political differences, but because of our scientific agreement. Every time you lash out irrrationally and lump together all Conservatives as religious Creationist wingnuts, you do a tremendous DISSERVICE to the cause of science. Do not be as bad as they are.



's avatar #19714: PZ Myers — 03/25  at  08:23 AM
I know that all conservatives are not creationists or even idiots. That's why I didn't criticize conservatives in this post: I criticized wingnuts and Republican extremists. Do you make the mistake of confusing Republicans with conservatives now?

You should be aware that the Republican party is no longer a conservative party, and that it has been hijacked by the nutjobs at the fringe of conservativism. Maybe you should wake up and realize that you are doing a disservice to the conservative cause when you mistakenly defend these wingnuts as if they represent you.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#19776: — 03/25  at  01:55 PM
Let's Review...

This guy says that "we don't know" where life came from. Then YOU call HIM arrogant?

You either need a dictionary or a mirror.



's avatar #19839: Ben — 03/25  at  09:18 PM
And you need a backbone, Mr "just@pasingby.com".

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them." --Thomas Edison.



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