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Tuesday, November 23, 2004

Yglesias says one bad thing, and one good thing

Jeebers. Everybody seems to be commenting on this thing. Here's Yglesias's take on a recent infamous Derbyshire article:

I don't know if John Derbyshire is being factually accurate when he states that certain kinds of genetic research are impeded by a chilling effect that can basically be laid at the door of liberals. He says researchers worry that if they do something that turns up race-correlated differentials or whatever, that they'll be pilloried. I can't say if that's true or not, but it has a certain plausibility to it. What doesn't have much plausibility is the notion that this sort of thing is really a bigger deal than the right's effort to expunge the main bit of science underlying all of contemporary biological research. But conservatives elites could hardly complain about that sort of thing.

In case this was unclear, by "the main bit of science underlying all of contemporary biological research" I mean the theory of evolution, and not anything as mundane as embryonic stem cells which, though certainly promising, are tangential to a lot of what one might want to do. If we don't teach evolution to the next generation of kids, it's hard to see how any biological or medical research could possibly go forward in this country.

First, the bad thing. Derbyshire doesn't deserve the attention; it's yet another paranoid pseudoscientific crank inventing a conspiracy to suppress science that supports his delusions. In this case, it's scientific racism, but I've heard exactly the same line of baloney from creationists. For example, Jonathan Wells cites a mysterious, unnamed scientist in China who says, "In China we can criticize Darwin, but not the government; in America, you can criticize the government, but not Darwin." I have a very strong suspicion about who Derbyshire's mysterious hot-shot young researcher in computational genomics is, and he's a crackpot, one of the new breed of so-called "scientific" racists, a follower of Herrnstein and Murray and Jensen and Shockley and others of that vile ilk. Quite contrary to the claim that it is risky to follow that path, these people seem to do quite well. There's always a market for someone willing to make stuff up to please bigots.

I will also note that the claim that "knowledge about human variation" is being suppressed by wicked, politically correct Leftists who think it is bigotry to mention that different people have different alleles is nonsense. Read Nature and Science; great stuff about pharmacogenetics and genetic variation revealed by the Human Genome Project gets published all the time and is enthusiastically received, even by this hard-core left-winger.

Second, the good thing: as Yglesias notes, it is absurd to accuse the left-wing of crippling science when it is the right-wing that is actively, vocally, and unashamedly behind all the anti-evolution crap that's going down in school districts across the country. Instead of carping about his fantastical delusions of leftist anti-science, maybe he and his cronies ought to spend some effort fighting the real anti-science being peddled by his side of the political aisle. Except, of course, that Derbyshire has admitted to being completely ignorant of biology and not caring much about the creationist attemps to stifle the teaching of evolution. Ah, but not teaching that there is a scientific basis to the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan…now that is worth fighting against!


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Comments:
's avatar #9633: Chris Clarke — 11/23  at  09:44 PM
It's ironic and hilarious that some of the people who claim leftists are suppressing such research gleefully misrepresent the work of Cavalli-Sforza to back up their warmed over racist hypotheses, and isn't Luigi somewhat to the left of, say, Hillary Clinton?

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#9634: razib — 11/23  at  09:57 PM
pz, you forget that on the other blog you contribute to there was an entry titled good for derbyshire where they quote john and he makes it clear that he's not a total pushover for the creationists.

Human beings must have their consolations in this cold world, and wishful thinking is by no means only found on the political left, as Creationism and the “Intelligent Design” flapdoodle illustrate. Science ought to be trusted. Careful, peer-reviewed science—even human science!—ought to be read with respect, and with calm objectivity, and with the yearning to understand this strange universe, shot through as it is with mystery and wonder.



's avatar #9635: PZ Myers — 11/23  at  10:02 PM
One pleasant sentiment plucked out of a mucky morass of repugnant attitudes does not salvage the man's reputation.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#9637: mattH — 11/23  at  11:07 PM
Derbyshire is a hack. That should be said at the beginning of every post about him.

Razib, it would seem that you didn't even read the comments posted in the PT post that you linked to, but there you are, comment #8989. Confusing that you would link to it as even somewhat authoritative.



#9639: — 11/24  at  12:41 AM
Jonathan Wells cites a mysterious, unnamed scientist in China who says, “In China we can criticize Darwin, but not the government; in America, you can criticize the government, but not Darwin.”

I think that's Jun-Yuan Chen.

http://www.google.com/search?q="Jonathan+Wells"++"Jun-Yuan+Chen"



#9640: Abiola Lapite — 11/24  at  02:51 AM
I think a commenter at Matthew Yglesias blog gave the game away in noting that Derbyshire's claim that there was some sort of relationship between Lie algebras and computational genomics was pure nonsense - since when did genomics become a branch of theoretical physics? Either Derbyshire or (more likely) his "pal" were trying to bamboozle their audience by throwing in flashy but irrelevant terminology, hardly the mark of a pillar of rectitude in a position to make grand pronouncements about "political correctness" in genetics research.



#9641: — 11/24  at  04:51 AM
This has always been an uncomfortable area for me. I don't want to think that there are racial differences in IQ. But I haven't yet run across a rebuttal to Jensen and Murray and their ilk that seemed compelling.

I've run across the weaknesses of IQ measures, but you still have to pretty much accept that one way or another, some folks, individually, sure seem 'smarter' than others.

I've run across the comment that there is more genetic variation between humans in Africa, than between 'whites' and some of those groups.

I've run across the idea that the idea of race itself isn't really justified. But then, along comes geographical isolation and ...

But, so far, nothing that clearly says this couldn't happen.

And it does have policy implications. Some years back, I recall reading about placement in the local high school gifted program. Students were tested and the top x percent of each 'race' were placed in the program to adjust for the cultural bias of the test.

One thing that is reassuring is that even if there are differences in mean IQ or at least mean IQ measures, there is huge overlap in the distributions. The last thing we need is a color coded caste system actually 'justified' by evidence.

I'd sure like to get set straight here. This is not a pleasant thought to have. Makes you feel slimy. But still one strives for intellectual integrity.



#9644: Abiola Lapite — 11/24  at  07:02 AM
This has always been an uncomfortable area for me. I don’t want to think that there are racial differences in IQ. But I haven’t yet run across a rebuttal to Jensen and Murray and their ilk that seemed compelling.

Then you haven't been looking in the right places. Try looking up James Heckman's <a target=_top href="http://reason.com/9503/dept.bk.HECKMAN.text.shtml">review of "The Bell Curve"</a> for Reason magazine, and then take a peak at Thomas Sowell's comments. When you're done, you might also wish to take a look at this to understand why the term "heritability" doesn't mean quite what the likes of Murray and Jensen would wish one to think it does. For extra credit, I suggest reading up on "norms of reaction."

The bottom line: you don't have to "wish" for or be "comfortable" with anything, as there's just no good science out there to back up the claim that "racial" differences in IQ test scores are "innate." Intra-group estimates of heritability tell us nothing about inter-group heritability, and even an extremely high heritability estimate doesn't mean that anything is cast in stone. "The Bell Curve" and the like are simply bad science, and "political correctness" has absolutely nothing to do with that. The truth is that not a single gene has yet to be definitevely linked to "intelligence" (by which I mean whatever it is IQ tests measure): every time someone has made such a claim, it has had to be withdrawn in the end.



#9645: Abiola Lapite — 11/24  at  07:04 AM
PS: Why does the blog software insist on inserting spurious "target=top" attributes in links after one hits "Preview?" It's gone and broken the Heckman link in the preceding comment.



#9646: Abiola Lapite — 11/24  at  07:10 AM
Oops, one last link, this time to Ned Block's "How Heritability Misleads about Race". The key mistake Block describes is one that "race-IQ" fetishists pretty much always make - when you hear someone say "a heritability of 0.6 means 40% of the gap between blacks and whites is genetic and unremediable", you know straightaway that the person in question has just fallen into the trap. "Heritability" is one of those terms that has a precise technical meaning that is very different from what most people are expecting.



#9651: Jan Theodore Galkowski — 11/24  at  09:23 AM
“Heritability” is one of those terms that has a precise technical meaning that is very different from what most people are expecting.

Yeah, theory is another.

As mentioned in a comment to the previous article, race is a social construct, not a biological one.



#9653: — 11/24  at  09:44 AM
This kind of came up recently on NPR. There is a drug combination (for heart disease IIRC) that was originally rejected for lack of efficacy. However, when the data was re-examined, it turns out that persons of African descent benefitted from the drug when other groups did not.

For counterpoint, NPR interviewed someone sayeing that these drugs should not be marketed as drugs for African-Americans since that would give credence to the notion that their are "races."

I don't know, there has to be some way to admit that certain groups of people have certain genetic traits without being rascist.



's avatar #9654: PZ Myers — 11/24  at  10:09 AM
The problem is that it's not persons of African descent who benefit: it's people who have a particular allele, which happens to occur with a greater frequency in certain populations.

Imagine a drug that is neutralized by people who have enzyme A. 90% of people of African descent lack this enzyme, so for them this drug is pretty useful. The other 10%, and most people of European descent, get no benefit.

Now imagine that it is marketed as a good drug to prescribe for African-Americans with a particular disease. A white guy walks into the doctor's office, the doctor assumes that the iffy drug isn't going to work for him, and prescribes a more universally applicable treatment. A black guy walks in, the doctor assumes because of the color of his skin, rather than by assaying for the enzyme, that he should be given the new drug. There is a 10% chance that he has just given him a treatment that will fail. And what's more, the risk of failed treatment is selectively applied to the races singled out by the marketing.

It's one thing to recognize genetic differences between individuals. It's another to simplistically lump diverse people together because they share one visible trait.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#9656: — 11/24  at  10:58 AM
" There is a 10% chance that he has just given him a treatment that will fail. "

Seems to me that 90% chance of success is pretty good. Lots of drugs are in use that have less than 90% chance of success.

Hell, my father woke up one morning in August lacking about 20 years of memory, and his doctor and his neurologist had no clue whatsoever. They wound up thinking he was depressed, sent him to a shrink, who put him on Ritalin, which he didn't need, though he did get tons of work done around the house for a week.

90% accuracy would be a lot better than that! (A specialist at UCONN thinks he's having micro-strokes that don't show up on MRI, and is getting something like multiple-infarct dementia, and has put him on Aricept.)

As far as the heart drug goes, should doctors just not prescribe it to anyone? Or should they ignore the 'racial' data, and prescribe it as if it were equally effective for all patients?

Doctors often use cheaply available data to make judgements like this, instead of seeking expensive labwork that would precisely nail down that last 10% of uncertainty.

Race is a rough heuristic for diagnosis, but it's hardly the only such heuristic.

It's *not* just marketing.



's avatar #9658: Chris Clarke — 11/24  at  11:18 AM
” There is a 10% chance that he has just given him a treatment that will fail. “

Seems to me that 90% chance of success is pretty good. Lots of drugs are in use that have less than 90% chance of success.


The drug itself almost certainly has a less than 100% success rate for people WITH the allele in question.

Phrased more precisely: There is a 10% chance that he has just given the patient a treatment with zero percent (or whatever) chance of success.

"I do not think we should antagonize the religious when it is not warranted, though I think we should be willing to do so whenever it is.”
-- Glen Davidson



#9660: — 11/24  at  11:54 AM
Here is a news story:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_21141.html

But, without a simple genetic test to determine efficacy, isn't the race-based decision correct?

Should everyone be tested for Tay-Sachs?
Should everyone be tested for sickle-cell anemia?



's avatar #9661: PZ Myers — 11/24  at  12:09 PM
No, it wouldn't be correct. Using race is a test with an extremely high false-positive rate. There is an amazing amount of epidemiological work on just when you should use tests with a given false positive and false negative rate, and the results are often counter-intuitive.

It is a valid question to ask, though. But the simple answer is that just having a test with some success is not always a reason to use the test.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#9664: — 11/24  at  12:27 PM
But isn't the point of the A-Heft to see if race can be used? They determined the efficacy rate - and no side effects - based on over one thousand study participants.



#9676: — 11/24  at  03:37 PM
there was some sort of relationship between Lie algebras and computational genomics

I don't know about the rest of the article but this at least was changed in the version on John Derbyshires website

http://olimu.com/WebJournalism/Texts/Commentary/SwellingWave.htm


The science here is deep, and not to be trifled with. The Datanaut uses some heavy-duty math in his work: stochastic processes, dynamic programming, hierarchical clustering, control matrices, ODEs and PDEs. That, at least, I could follow without effort; though it is impressive to hear such terms bandied about by a researcher whose line of inquiry belongs


i don't know anything about the area but i'm told this is more accurate. might have been a misquote by Derbyshire.



#9678: Abiola Lapite — 11/24  at  04:01 PM
i don’t know anything about the area but i’m told this is more accurate. might have been a misquote by Derbyshire.
Or it might be that someone cottoned unto the fact that people weren't buying the existence of a connection between Lie algebras and bioinformatics, and then sent in a "correction" to Derbyshire ...



#9681: — 11/24  at  05:30 PM
For those of you who seem to think that using race as a good approximation of an given allele (see 90/10 above)... how dark should the person's skin be before the doctor makes this assumption? (Playing devil's advocate) And let us not forget that 'of African descent' doesnt mean the same thing everywhere (eg Theresa Heinz Kerry)

Cultural and societal groups are not biological groups, which is another reason 'Bell Curve' type arguments fall apart. The attitudes, hence testable results, towards advanced education of youngsters from small rural towns and poor urban neighborhoods have a lot in common, and it isnt because of their skin color.

After all, if someone surveyed the members of this little online community and extrapolated that to any other demographic group we are members of, they would likely have very skewed data. I know that polling and statistical methodology work hard to overcome the challenges, but the surveys I am subject to (which are many, since I work at a university and our email list is favored by many grad students) indicate that actually gathering of knowledge may rate somewhat below obtaining a passing grade and a degree.



#9682: — 11/24  at  05:53 PM
I don't know, but it might be very telling to read the PDR entry for this combination of drugs and see how the drug company defines it.



#9683: — 11/24  at  06:07 PM
You should either embrace all the implications of evolutionary theory, and admit that evolved differences between races exist, or else stop being so smug about Christians who react negatively when science threatens their world view.



#9687: mattH — 11/24  at  07:18 PM
You should either embrace all the implications of evolutionary theory, and admit that evolved differences between races exist, or else stop being so smug about Christians who react negatively when science threatens their world view.


Define race for me norman, and then, after you find that human groups can't fall under a biologically meaningful definition, we can forget your whole "scientists really are just as compartmentalizing as anyone else", OK?



's avatar #9688: PZ Myers — 11/24  at  08:10 PM
Yes. I don't quite know what "race" is. What I know from biology is that populations may differ in the frequency of a subset of alleles, and that populations also tend to have a substantial reservoir of genetic diversity that, through recombination, leads to unique individuals.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



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