Pharyngula

Saturday, August 06, 2005

Michael Ruse is a very confused fellow

Michael Ruse has an interview in Salon, prompted by the publication of his new book, The Evolution-Creation Struggle (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll). The interview does not motivate me to bother with his book at all. He says some sensible things, and then he goes off the deep end and says some ridiculous things. Like this:

The most interesting thing that the creationists are doing is pointing, as Matthew says, at the beams in the eyes of the evolutionists. Meaning that we all too often get into evolutionism and link up our evolutionary positions with social prescriptions and with atheism.

I'm all in favor of social prescriptions, and I'm not knocking anybody for being an atheist. I call myself a skeptic, but that's a hell of a lot closer to atheism than it is to Christianity. But I want to see what grounds you have for saying that, and whether or not your positions follow from one another. If they do, maybe you should ask yourself, "Am I not being a hypocrite in teaching evolutionary biology in American schools?" Given the fact that it's clearly illegal. You're not allowed to teach religion in biology class.

I can't understand why I can't get through people's thick skulls on this one. If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools! It's not good enough to say, "Well, I'm a National Socialist. But the fact that that meant a lot of Jews were hauled off to Auschwitz, that's not my worry!" It bloody is! If your theory leads to 6 million Jews being made into soap, not only is there something deeply troubling about your theory, but you've got a moral obligation to face up to its implications. If this theory leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications.

I know why he can't "get through people's thick skulls"—it's because he's wrong.

I consider myself an evolutionist and a strong atheist, but that doesn't mean I think teaching evolution is a way to proselytize for atheism; science describes how the world works, and says nothing about whether supernatural beings do or do not exist. Personally, it's the absolute lack of evidence for gods that is sufficient to make gods uninteresting to me, not the fact that fruit flies have Hox genes…and quite a few people agree that natural phenomena like common descent and natural selection do not contradict their ideas of how gods might work. Ruse is flailing against a straw man here.

The idea that teaching evolution is a violation of church and state is playing right into the creationist's hands. When I teach about Hardy-Weinberg equilibria, am I promoting my religion? Is p2+2pq+q2=1 a heresy for someone? Are geologists who teach that the world is round or mathematicians who think pi=3.1416 preaching religious dogma? I suspect that most of my students are Christian, and I suspect that most emerge from my classes with their faith completely unchallenged and unchanged…of course, I can only suspect that, though, because I never even ask what religion they follow. I just don't care.

Where Ruse really goes off the rails, though, is that last paragraph. If he won't knock anyone for being an atheist, why is he making such a blatant comparison between Jew-burning Nazis and atheists? He certainly is implying that atheism is going to lead to genocide, and that by training people in evolutionary biology we're producing the next generation of murderers. That's pretty damn offensive and ignorant, if you ask me. It's pure creationist argument from false consequences. And just to top off the insult, look at this comment from a little later in the interview:

I see the sacrifices they make. William Dembski [the mathematician and philosopher who is among the I.D. movement's intellectual stars] is a very bright guy who should have been able to get a very good job, and he's reduced to going off to some theological tinpot college in Tennessee or something [actually, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.]. Paul Nelson hasn't got a regular job. They're making sacrifices for their faith. While I think their position is terrible, I don't see them as evil people. I don't see them as Hitlers. They're caught up in an appalling, idiosyncratic American religion. So they're not the first.

So, ummm, the creationists who are corrupting our education system and destroying the sciences in America are not Hitlers, but the evolutionists are. Thanks, Dr Ruse. You're a big help.

I don't think Dembski or Nelson are little Hitlers, either (Dobson, on the other hand, is a wanna-be). Nelson is a nice human being, and although I've never met Dembski, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he can be personable, too. That doesn't matter; if being a good person qualified you for prestigious jobs, then Mr Rogers would have been president of the US. Oh, and Hitler loved dogs. Who cares? It's their wrong-headedness and ignorance of biology that disqualifies them from respectable positions, not their religion.


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Comments:
#33987: mallarme — 08/06  at  09:48 AM
Ah, I knew you'd comment on this. What particularly struck me while reading this interview is that Ruse regularly equates atheism with religion. Since when is the absence of something the same as its presence? If I have no superstitions, does that make me a superstitious person? By telling people that black cats are not unlucky, I am not promoting my own brand of superstition. While some atheists may hold their views with a religious-like fervor, that doesn't make atheism a religion. At most, it's a philosophy, but nobody claims that the Categorical Imperative is divine revelation or that the Allegory of the Cave is scripture.



's avatar #33988: PZ Myers — 08/06  at  09:54 AM
Yeah, and I also think he has some unconscious hostility to atheism.

By the way, everyone, notice that when I link to books, I now give you the choice of Amazon, Barnes&Noble, Abebooks, or Powells—I figured out how to get to all of them with just an ISBN, so it isn't too much work for me to set up pointers to 'em all.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#33990: coturnix — 08/06  at  09:59 AM
I figured out how to get to all of them with just an ISBN
Is this a secret or can you tell us how you do this?



#33992: — 08/06  at  10:32 AM
Love the multiple choice book links! Finally, someone who understands my Amazonophobia.



#33993: — 08/06  at  10:37 AM
If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools!

Wrong. There's not a scientific fact under the sun that doesn't contradict somebody's nutty religious dogma. Therefore, under this "logic" every fact is "in violation of church and state", and facts couldn't be taught at all. It doesn't matter one ounce what the religious "implications" are of facts taught in school, only that they are judged competently as factual. Let the religions change around facts, not vice versa, if for no other reason then that the latter set-up would be impossible!



#33994: Mark Nutter — 08/06  at  10:38 AM
Ruse's reasoning reminds me a bit of a pattern I've seen before. It goes like this: According to the First Amendment, the government isn't supposed to favor any one religion over any other. Atheists do not favor any one religion over any other. Therefore, the government must be favoring atheism!

Hello? It's not atheism's fault that, by not favoring any particular religion, it happens to resemble the goal of religious neutrality required by the First Amendment. But I fear the point is lost on a lot of people. Religious neutrality isn't really what they want; what they really want is the freedom to impose their own religious views on everyone else "as God intended."



#33995: — 08/06  at  10:45 AM
Ruse denies being a believer rather too many times, I think. Certainly the associations he sets up - the "slippery slope" into atheism, the bit about the Nazis - are wildly anti-atheist. He also does the casual conflation of one particular religion with capital-R Religion, which only makes sense if you're a believer.



#33997: — 08/06  at  10:49 AM
The "nazi card", here, like so often, is totally gratuitous, unhelpful and disproportionate. Man, there should be rules to use that kind of dubious analogy... Arthur Caplan recently wrote an interesting editorial on precisely that question, though in another context (Misusing the Nazi Analogy, Science 22 July 2005: 535). Ruse is indeed a very confused and confusing guy. At first I thought he was some sort of "contrarian" or iconoclast, but now i'm beginning to wonder if he's not just plain stupid.



's avatar #33998: Hank Fox — 08/06  at  10:51 AM
"According to the First Amendment, the government isn't supposed to favor any one religion over any other. Atheists do not favor any one religion over any other. Therefore, the government must be favoring atheism!"

Wow, Mark, excellent point!

Hey, that comment on Dembski sacrificing for his faith. You mean it's actually COSTING these dummies something to be so radically wrongheaded? Good gosh, that's hopeful news!



#33999: — 08/06  at  10:53 AM
Wow. From the little I knew about Ruse before, I was disinclined to read him, since I don't really care if Christianity and evolution are compatible.

Now, as an atheist descendant of Holocaust victims & survivors, I just want to punch the guy. To say that my distinct lack of belief in something is comparable to an ideology that justifies the murder of some of my relatives and countless other innocents is a remarkably severe and unfounded insult. At least it takes him out of the running as anyone with an argument worth listening to.

I mean, come on. Nation Socialism is a political platform. It is inherently about how things should be (according to its adherents, obviously). So it's the intended and expected consequence that when enough people believe it, they take (reprehensible, unforgiveable) actions based on it. Now evolutionary theory? Um, that's a theory. An assessment on the way things already are, based on evidence. And then he has it leading to atheism, which is, well, another assessment, this time of how things ain't. Hardly a course of action. So the analogy

National Socialism: Holocaust :: Evolutionary theory: Atheism

breaks down to something like

[political philosophy]: [Actions] :: [Scientific theory]:: [belief]

A bit spurious, no?



#34000: — 08/06  at  11:03 AM
Just my opinion. At most, science and biology in particular implies agnosticism, not atheism. A kind of "I don't need the God hypothesis", not "I don't think there is a God". The difference is obvious, and I really wonder how come Ruse didn't use it. Looks like he really hates atheists.

Marco Ferrari



's avatar #34002: Raven — 08/06  at  11:22 AM
The difference is obvious, and I really wonder how come Ruse didn't use it. Looks like he really hates atheists.


I think you just answered your own question, Marco--to the "you're either with us or against us" mentality, there's no room for the concept that maybe it has nothing to do with them. In other words, the difference is obvious to you and me, but he can't see it, or even conceive of it.



#34003: — 08/06  at  11:24 AM
Ruse's hostility to atheism and pro-religious bent are apparently obvious to everyone but him. The man is dispensing crap by the truckload...



#34004: — 08/06  at  11:37 AM
If teaching Darwinian evolution "implies" atheism, there is something terribly, terribly wrong with one's definition of faith. As Jefferson noted, true faiths don't require the support of government to get along in life.

And, for what it's worth, it's not evolution that implies atheism. What generally happens -- quiz a few creationists who believe it does imply atheism to see if they don't tell you a story to show I'm right, matching what I say here -- is a kid is crammed full of six-day creation/atheists-are-evil/watch-out-for-scientists-who-try-to-lead-you-astray crap for a dozen years or so. Then they get to college, where they learn in geology that only a fool doesn't understand there is great age in rocks; where they meet an atheist English lit prof who, in his reading of Huckleberry Finn, demonstrates that we can make the world a more moral place, and where they find a Zen Buddhist who is the best teacher of Bible studies they've ever known; and where they meet up with a student health service that gets them over all sorts of stuff with advanced pharmaceuticals and solid advice based on research. Now, having understood first hand that they were lied to about at least three giant things in church, they question all the other stuff they had been instructed in.

I cannot count how many church women have told me sad stories about their kids "going atheist" as soon as they got to college. "And we never let him take biology so he wouldn't be polluted by Darwin," they say . . .

And finally, let us note that Hitler knew nothing about Darwin. In fact, just as Stalin rejected Darwin and Darwinian theory, Hitler rejected modern biology. Ashley Montagu relates the really shockingly sad story of how Hitler refused to allow the creation of blood banks. This meant that tens of thousands of German soldiers died of blood loss when they could have been saved, while the Allied ranks did not suffer similarly. As Montagu relates it, Hitler was sure that heritage is carried in the blood (the Bible says so, after all). So he was afraid that his Aryan soldiers might be turned into Jews by transfusions, and in any case, he did not want the possibility of mixing blood. Hitler even believed in a Jewish blood type . . .

Well, Ruse is perpetuating such illogical ignorance. He should be ashamed. He should be sentenced to reading Darwin, and reading real history.



#34005: — 08/06  at  11:38 AM
P. S. I love the idea of linking AbeBooks. Any way to add Sam Weller, too?



#34006: — 08/06  at  11:43 AM
Is anyone really surprised at this though? Once upon a time Ruse had some pretty sensible positions but over the last ten years or he has degenerated into a caricature of his former self.



#34008: — 08/06  at  11:51 AM
PZ, you say: I don't think Dembski or Nelson are little Hitlers, either (Dobson, on the other hand, is a wanna-be).

In what sense is Dobson like Hitler, or aspiring to be like Hitler?

Fuz



#34009: Jeremy Henty — 08/06  at  11:54 AM
Ruse seems to think atheists must bend over backwards
to avoid giving any offense to religion. The paragraphs
you quote are quite shocking; did I read them wrong or
is he really saying we should censor science to avoid
treading on religion's toes? Did he really imply that
telling someone their religion is wrong is on a par with
genocide? Can he really not distinguish between a
scientific theory and a political party?

Ruse cannot see that creationism is at best intellectually
bankrupt and at worst intellectually dishonest. He's
convinced they must be on the level, and so he's
swallowed their propanganda hook, line and sinker.
I'm with comment #33999: Ruse just doesn't have any
credibility on this issue any more.



#34011: Matt Dunn — 08/06  at  12:03 PM
Well, I have to admit that I don't really like Michael Ruse as a scholar or as a person. While he wrote a landmark book in Darwin studies in the 70s, 'Darwinian Revolution', he hasn't done a whole lot since then. And he's a very rude, center of attention sort of class bully in person. Not very enjoyable to be around I didn't think.

But, as far as PZ Myer's remarks, I think he's misunderstanding Ruse a bit. While it is certainly imprudent to pull the Nazi card, he's doing it for effect and actually doesn't imply that atheism will lead to genocide at all. At least in the selection reproduced above. Rather, I think he is simply arguing by analogy that in the Nazi case, clearly we all agree that being a National Socialist is bad because it led (I don't agree here, but this is his argument) to the holocaust. So we should be responsible for what our beliefs entail. According to Ruse, such is the case with evolution. Ruse argues that just like being a National Socialist, being an evolutionist will lead to things that aren't good, namely teaching religion (in this case atheism) in public schools. In other words, we have to be responsible for what our beliefs entail.

Well, I know Ruse has this distinction between 'evolution the science' and 'evolutionism the ''religion''', and he seems to be conflating the two here. Maybe he sorts it out in the rest of the interview?

I also realize that his language is a bit vague, if that's the source of the confusion, what with the last sentence in that last paragraph reading 'If this theory leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications', but I think he meant to say if 'evolution leads to atheism', not 'if national socialism leads to atheism'. I don't know, I could be completely wrong here.



#34012: — 08/06  at  12:06 PM
Ruse was beginning to sound a bit like the fanatical screed of John Whitehead that I just read (from The Rutherford Institute ( http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=316 )in which he credits the religion of evolution with the rise of "racism, facism and totalitarianism."
"If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism,..." but the evidence clearly indicates that this is not true, so what is the point in continuing as Ruse does--after all, one can easily cite examples where Christianity or other religious beliefs have led to bloodshed and misery.



#34013: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:06 PM
I readearlu Ruse's stuff avidly. I may not have agreed with a lot of it, but it was good. I don't know what has got into him? Now that he moved from Canada to Florida, perhaps the sun boiled his brain. He is getting worse and worse. I decided not to bother reading his last two books or so - not worth my time and effort. I met him a few years back and he seems a nice guy. Is he just trying to stir up the pot? Bored of repeating his old stuff so is trying hard to come up with something new? Got to be too good a friend with Johnson? Dunno. Strange.



#34015: QrazyQat — 08/06  at  12:18 PM
I'm not sure how much "cost" is involved in it for people like Dembski. Essentially he's getting a salary, perhaps not at an especially pretigious school, to do little work and spout nonsense -- that sounds like a pretty easy gig to me, not like a scarifice.



's avatar #34016: PZ Myers — 08/06  at  12:22 PM
That's it--it's Florida. What say we send Darksyde around to teach him a lesson?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34017: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:27 PM
Katherine Harris got his brain... wink

(The posting word is "sperm")



#34018: coturnix — 08/06  at  12:31 PM
BTW, book reviews on Amazon are...well...pretty bad. Has anyone actually read the book and is willing to post a good review there?



#34019: mattH — 08/06  at  12:44 PM
I think the last quote is the worst. The implication is that Dembski and Nelson are sacrificing for their christian faith, not what in reality is their faith in creationism. It seems calculated to encourage other christians to identify with them along that plane of self-rightious suffering that all of God's chosen are doomed to face. This is apologetics, and nothing less.



#34022: — 08/06  at  01:11 PM
If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools!

(1) As Jason stated, there are no scientific theories that don't contradict somebody's nutty religious dogma. Want to teach the germ theory of disease? Well, it you're a Christian Scientist (who believe that all disease is caused by improperly seeing God), then germ theory has huge implications. One might even call it "atheistic". Teach the controversy!?

(2) Darwinian evolution does NOT imply atheism. The problem is that many people are too narrow minded about the theistic possibilities. For many people, there is a simple dichotomy: either God directly intervened to created life on earth (via special creation or intelligent design), or God does not exist. Quite frankly, I don't believe in God, but I'll state that undirected Darwinian evolution does not mean atheism any more than "gravity moves the planets, not God's direct intervention pulling them across the sky" implies God doesn't exist.



#34023: — 08/06  at  01:12 PM
Ruse:

If this theory (evolution) leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications.


In my view, you cannot relieve this quote from Ruse's larger argument. First, he CANNOT believe that evolutionary theory leads to atheism because he himself is an ardent evolutionist and not an atheist. Nor is he a closet commie creationist; the mountain of books and articles he's written supporting evolution while dissecting and condemning creationism, without exception, as bad science, attest to this, as do his comments in the rest of the interview. Insinuations to the contrary are absurd. What he is saying is that some of evolution's most prolific popularizers (Dawkins, Wilson, Gould), and perhaps many evolutionists generally, BELIEVE (mistakenly) that evolutionary theory leads to strict-construction materialist metaphysics and atheism. At least that's my reading of the ENTIRETY of the interview, and frankly the only reading that seems plausible to me in the context of Ruse's body of work.

That said, I don't agree with or understand the leap of logic that this disqualifies such people from teaching evolution. Perhaps he's (provocatively) suggesting that scientists/teachers should examine both their metaphysics and their scientific teaching, and make every good-faith effort to avoid conflating the two. I think this is what Ruse meant, but it certainly doesn't come through in the quote.

Then there's the analogy with Nazis, a rhetorical device sure to persuade and encourage rational debate. (Not.) I don't believe Ruse intends to say evolutionists are akin to Nazis; that would be tantamount to labeling himself as one. What he is saying is that we all have a "moral obligation" to face up to the implications of the theories we hold and the metaphysics that we think they imply. Could he have chosen a more infuriating, incendiary, and unfortunate analogy? Probably not. Do you give him a mulligan on this quote, made in the context of a much larger conversation? I would, because I respect Ruse's long track record supporting evolution against creationist assaults. Others may not, and I can see why.

Overall, I think Ruse believes there is merit in ONE aspect of the creationist critique of EB, specifically that some Evolutionists hold a position indistinguishable from religion in believing that evolution inevitably leads to a strict materialist metaphysics and atheism. However, even if you don't agree with Ruse on this count, I don't think you can fault religious people, who otherwise support science, for coming to the same conclusion after reading relevant passages from Dawkins, Gould, and other public champions of evolution, especially some sociobiologists (Wilson and Barash come to mind). There is a REASON that the IDer's "fairness argument" resonates with most Americans (not just fundies, not just republicans, but even a majority of Kerry supporters). I think Ruse is attempting to get beyond the "they're all idiots" rhetoric, and really understand the basis for this resonance.


My prayer to "god" (otherwise known as the great omnipotent blog editor in the n-tier distributed network of the heavens): please lord, strike all posts everywhere analogizing to the Holocaust or Hitler any situation that does NOT involve the genocide of millions of innocents. Amen.



#34024: — 08/06  at  01:15 PM
Ruse:

If this theory (evolution) leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications.


In my view, you cannot relieve this quote from Ruse's larger argument. First, he CANNOT believe that evolutionary theory leads to atheism because he himself is committed evolutionist and not an atheist. Nor is he a closet commie creationist; the mountain of books and articles he's written supporting evolution while dissecting and condemning creationism, without exception, as bad science, attest to this, as do his comments in the rest of the interview. Insinuations to the contrary are absurd. What he is saying is that some of evolution's most prolific popularizers (Dawkins, Wilson, Gould), and perhaps many evolutionists generally, BELIEVE (mistakenly) that evolutionary theory leads to strict-construction materialist metaphysics and atheism. At least that's my reading of the ENTIRETY of the interview, and frankly the only reading that seems plausible to me in the context of Ruse's body of work.

That said, I don't agree with or understand the leap of logic that this disqualifies such people from teaching evolution. Perhaps he's (provocatively) suggesting that scientists/teachers should examine both their metaphysics and their scientific teaching, and make every good-faith effort to avoid conflating the two. I think this is what Ruse meant, but it certainly doesn't come through in the quote.

Then there's the analogy with Nazis, a rhetorical device sure to persuade and encourage rational debate. (Not.) I don't believe Ruse intends to say evolutionists are akin to Nazis; that would be tantamount to labeling himself as one. What he is saying is that we all have a "moral obligation" to face up to the implications of the theories we hold and the metaphysics that we think they imply. Could he have chosen a more infuriating, incendiary, and unfortunate analogy? Probably not. Do you give him a mulligan on this quote, made in the context of a much larger conversation? I would, because I respect Ruse's long track record supporting evolution against creationist assaults. Others may not, and I can see why.

Overall, I think Ruse believes there is merit in ONE aspect of the creationist critique of EB, specifically that some Evolutionists hold a position indistinguishable from religion in believing that evolution inevitably leads to a strict materialist metaphysics and atheism. However, even if you don't agree with Ruse on this count, I don't think you can fault religious people, who otherwise support science, for coming to the same conclusion after reading relevant passages from Dawkins, Gould, and other public champions of evolution, especially some sociobiologists (Wilson and Barash come to mind). There is a REASON that the IDer's "fairness argument" resonates with most Americans (not just fundies, not just republicans, but even a majority of Kerry supporters). I think Ruse is attempting to get beyond the "they're all idiots" rhetoric, and really understand the basis for this resonance.


My prayer to "god" (otherwise known as the great omnipotent blog editor in the n-tier distributed network of the heavens): please lord, strike all posts everywhere analogizing to the Holocaust or Hitler any situation that does NOT involve the genocide of millions of innocents. Amen.



#34025: — 08/06  at  01:20 PM
They're making sacrifices for their faith.

Gee, doesn't that sound nice? Well, it does until you realize that lots of people have made "sacrifices for their faith" (as they see it) and screwed up the world. Many of the Crusaders were "making sacrifices for their faith". Even the 9/11 terrorists and suicide bombers are "making sacrifices for their faith". Simply put, "making sacrifices for their faith" is a really, really bad thing if directed wrongly.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."



#34029: — 08/06  at  01:38 PM
Matt writes that "Well, I know Ruse has this distinction between 'evolution the science' and 'evolutionism the ''religion''', and he seems to be conflating the two here. Maybe he sorts it out in the rest of the interview?"

That seems to me to be exactly what he does. Where evolution the science provides testable claims, evolutionism the religion makes the same sort of dogmatic speculations made by theistic religions. The skeptic is generally disliked by the theist and the atheist since both assent to non-evident objects of scientific inquiry.



#34030: — 08/06  at  02:20 PM
Calameda - Nice explanation of Ruse's approach, especially his attempt to go beyond simply calling creationists idiots. With respect to the idea that Ruse somehow believes that evolution inevitably leads to atheism, you note:

In my view, you cannot relieve this quote[If this theory (evolution) leads to atheism, then it's got religious implications] from Ruse's larger argument. First, he CANNOT believe that evolutionary theory leads to atheism because he himself is committed evolutionist and not an atheist.


The Salon article backs this up, where Ruse expressly notes that "Because you become an evolutionist, it does not necessarily follow that you become an atheist. I stand on that very strongly."



#34034: — 08/06  at  03:16 PM
What struck me first was Ruse's near-incoherence.

</i>But I want to see what grounds you have for saying that[1], and whether or not your positions follow from one another. If they do, maybe you should ask yourself, "Am I not being a hypocrite in teaching evolutionary biology in American schools?" Given the fact that it's clearly illegal[2]. You're not allowed to teach religion in biology class[3].</i>

1. Saying what?
2. I don't find it at all clear that teaching evolutionary biology in American schools is illegal. Even if it were, how would that make you a hypocrite? Breaking the law is not hypocritical in and of itself.
3. Are we to conclude then that evolutionary biology is a religion?

If Ruse's thesis is correct, then not only evolution, but anything that may lead to a change in someone's spiritual beliefs, must not be taught in school. I started out as an athiest, but then I read Walt Whitman's "mouse is miracle enough" and became a theist. A few years later I learned about the Holocaust and in a gesture of solidarity, started attending synagogue. Later, Emily Dickinson's "I never saw a moor" opened my mind to the Christian concept of heaven. Photos of the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel led me briefly to Catholicism until a psychology class opened my eyes to the wisdom of Buddhist theories about the mind.

Clearly, then, the teaching of European history, American poetry, and psychology is illegal, and anyone who disagrees is a hypocrite.



#34036: — 08/06  at  03:37 PM
Ruse is making a logical argument, not a causal one, about what should be taught in a biology class. So the fact that reading poetry is a causal condition giving rise to you becoming a theist would not be a reason for Ruse suggesting it not be taught in school - though what it would be doing in a biology class is another question.

Within the biology class, he is making the not overly surprising argument that dogmatic claims, such as god does or does not exist, have no place. For those evolutionists who understand evolution to entail atheism (an entailment Ruse does not agree with), they are teaching religion, not science.



#34042: — 08/06  at  04:54 PM
Why would someone think evolution disproves God? Evolution disproves Creation, physics disproves God.



#34044: — 08/06  at  05:09 PM
To be fair though, Andrew O'Hehir seems like a pretty confused fellow himself. For instance:

the rhetoric of both sides is subject to slippage, as you've said. The evolutionists reject creation science by saying it's not science -- but they're just resorting to a dictionary definition of science that, in effect, they wrote. As you say in the book, it's a bit too slick.

I don't know much about the history of science, but I was under the impression that science had been defined long before evolutionists came on the scene. Anyway, how does "resorting" to a dictionary definition qualify as slippage, no matter who wrote it? If they were changing the definition to deliberately exclude creationism, that would be a different matter, but using the traditional definition of science to determine what is and is not science seems not only fair, but essential.

Lee:
Ruse is making a logical argument, not a causal one


I don't understand what you mean by that. The rest of your comment suggests that the real difference between our interpretations is that you see him condemning a causal relationship in the mind of the teacher, while I saw him condemning a causal relationship in the mind of the student. You may well be right. As I said, I found Ruse nearly incoherent.

Within the biology class, he is making the not overly surprising argument that dogmatic claims, such as god does or does not exist, have no place.


Isn't that a bit of a strawman? I don't know of anyone who believes "God doesn't exist" should be taught in biology or any other class.

For those evolutionists who understand evolution to entail atheism ..., they are teaching religion, not science.


Wouldn't that only be true if they teach that entailment? I would be uncomfortable if someone who held that belief taught biology, but only because it seems incompatible with a clear understanding of science, not because I think that the belief itself magically transforms the subject matter into religion.



#34045: — 08/06  at  05:28 PM
Beth:

Wouldn't that only be true if they teach that entailment?


Sure - I don't have a problem with a theist or an atheist teaching science and the scientific method in a biology class. But I would expect both, if they are scientists, to be careful enough in their classroom to not confuse their dogmatic/religious beliefs with their scientific ones.



#34047: Orac — 08/06  at  06:19 PM
Oooh, it really pisses me off what he said about the "6 million Jews being turned into soap." That's perhaps the stupidest thing I've heard about the Holocaust in a long time, betraying a profound ignorance about the Holocaust, as this article shows.

As for the rest of his comparisons, the whole "atheist=Nazi" comparison is truly offensive, and I'm not even truly an atheist (agnostic is probably closer). It sounds like a job for the Hitler zombie. Unfortunately, James Dobson's also been attacked by the Hitler zombie with regards to overblown Nazi comparisons with regards to stem cell research. He's been a busy little undead Fuhrer.

It sounds as though the Hitler zombie might have to make an appearance soon, given the amount of Holocaust stupidity coming from these two sources. I'd write it tonight, but I'm too tired! Perhaps I'll open the crypt tomorrow or Monday! One more stupid Nazi/Hitler/Holocaust analogy between now and then would clinch it.

--
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#34052: Pete — 08/06  at  07:04 PM
I would have liked Ruse to actually point out an example of someone he calls an "Evolutionist", with an in-context quote that actually reveals their belief that "evolution logically entails atheism". To my knowledge, no one has indicated this. Does Ruse just not understand what Dawkins meant by "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist"?

Evolution certainly does rule out certain kinds of theism, namely, those that say a deity played a causal role in the creation and development of life. I don't think Ruse or anyone else can deny this. But I think Ruse is erecting straw men so he can make a name for himself by knocking them down. Show me at least one "Evolutionist" who follows evolution as if it were a religion - and don't just say "Dawkins" or "Gould", but back it up.

(..the code-word to submit this post was "zygotene" -- the stage of meiosis I've been studying all these years. cool.)



#34054: — 08/06  at  07:28 PM
I really, really, really wish people could tell the difference between evolution and Social Darwinism. One of them has carloads of scientific evidence to support it; the other is a disproven extrapolation of science into the sociopolitical realm. They are not, and have never been, the same thing.



#34055: — 08/06  at  07:30 PM
I would have liked Ruse to actually point out an example of someone he calls an "Evolutionist", with an in-context quote that actually reveals their belief that "evolution logically entails atheism". To my knowledge, no one has indicated this.


I personally don't know anyone who would try to argue that the science of evolution entails the dogma of atheism (or the dogma of theism, for that matter.} Perhaps Ruse was setting up such an argument just to illustrate its silliness?

Does Ruse just not understand what Dawkins meant by "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist"?


I don't know. Ruse claims to be a skeptic, which would suggest to me that he would probably set aside the arguments of both the theist and the atheist as dogma. As a fellow skeptic, that is my approach, yet I know a number of atheists and theists who seem to lead intellectually fulflled lives, even if their assent to their belief structure is somewhat puzzling to me.



#34056: Kaleberg — 08/06  at  07:40 PM
1) I always say that religion is about talking to God, science is about listening to God. God, as and if such exists, has fascinating things to tell us. The anthropic principle is sort of the non-theistic path to this.

2) Basically, a lot of religious people hate the fact that they can't ram their religion down everyone's throats anymore. If you've ever lived in a one religion town, you find that most people think of themselves as the normal people and everyone else as sort of un-natural. Check out The Little Professor blog for glimpse at some of the anti-Catholic crap in Olde Anglican England.

3) I've never understood the Nazi-atheist link myself. Most of the Nazis were Christians. Damned few Jews supported such an overtly anti-semitic party, and there were not all that many Muslims, Hindus and others in Germany back then.

4) Dobson does resemble Hitler in his desire to lock up or kill abortionists and homosexuals, and he would rather see Jews and members of other religions removed from public life. Like Hitler, Dobson opposes mixed marriages, except of course, those mixing sexes. The Nazi movement, like Hasidism, was a reaction to reaction to the legal emancipation of the Jews.



#34076: coturnix — 08/06  at  09:21 PM
A good op-ed on IDC here:
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2915082
and another good one here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2002421318_goded05.html
and another good one here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/08/04/EDG5LE1SBH1.DTL



#34083: — 08/06  at  09:46 PM
I'm glad that everyone else seems to have found the interview as confused as I did. Ruse seems to be perturbed by Dawkins' enthusiastic and Gould's coy embrace of atheism, and his interviewer even more so.

I'm even more perturbed by the insistence that atheism is a particular religious attitude, when most often it's the absence of any religious concern. Not being claustrophobic or agoraphobic isn't an alternate phobia.

By the way, in comment threads on other weblogs I've been encountering the same equation of evolution with atheism and generally also with abiogenesis. I'm prepared to admit that straw men are evidence of Intelligent Design.



#34087: — 08/06  at  10:19 PM
What happened to the names of the commenters?



#34088: — 08/06  at  10:33 PM
Pete wrote:

I would have liked Ruse to actually point out an example of someone he calls an "Evolutionist", with an in-context quote that actually reveals their belief that "evolution logically entails atheism". To my knowledge, no one has indicated this...

But I think Ruse is erecting straw men so he can make a name for himself by knocking them down. Show me at least one "Evolutionist" who follows evolution as if it were a religion - and don't just say "Dawkins" or "Gould", but back it up.


Pete, I'm reluctant to respond to this for two reasons:

1) I don't have searchable copies of Dawkins, Gould's and Hamilton's collected writings and that means I'll need to spend a lot of time re-reading old books to find the relevant passages, and frankly don't have that kind of time to burn (but which, I notice, I'm burning on this reply),

2) I don't think "quote wars" change minds.

That said, I did fish out of the garage an old yellowed copy of The Selfish Gene, and by god (ha ha) in the very first paragraph of chapter 1, entitled Why Are People?, is the following:

Darwin made it possible for us to give a sensible answer to the curious child whose question heads this chapter. We no longer have to resort to superstition when faced with the deep problems: Is there meaning to life? What are we for? What is man? After posing the last of these questions, the eminent zoologist G. G. Simpson put it thus: 'The point to make now is that all attempts to answer that question before 1859 are worthless and that we will be better off if we ignore them completely.'


Are you taken aback (even a little?) by this passage? I was when I first read it and I am now. And I'm not religious.

Dawkins clearly believes that darwinism answers what are, to most people, obviously existential questions. And he asserts unequivocally by quoting Simpson, that all non-evolutionary answers to these questions are rendered quaint. So I think that includes all religious traditions that have anything at all to say about these issues. And that would be pretty much all of them. Except those developed post-1859?

In my view, this constitutes just the sort of metaphysical leap that Ruse criticizes and which most evolutionists, atheist or not, would say goes WAY beyond what evolution actually teaches us. He's certainly entitled to believe what he believes, but the problem is that he says that these metaphysical conclusions follow from evolution.

BTW, it might be interesting to speculate how Dawkins would answer these "deep questions". My guess is:
1. No
2. To propagate our genes
3. A vessel for replicators

I won't argue if someone thinks he'd answer differently, but given his, um, idiosyncratic interpretation of evolutionary theory, his answers almost certainly would NOT be given by Simpson, Darwin, or many any other evolutionists, atheist or not. Which illustrates that the implied conclusiveness of his answers to the deep questions, is, in fact, rather not so.

There's much more about Dawkins' current metaphysical positions and their connection to his evolutionary beliefs in a previous Salon interview:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/

Whether Dawkins' comments there inarguably illustrate Ruse's contention is less clear to me, but they appear to be quite consistent nonetheless.



#34093: — 08/06  at  11:22 PM
Since I was an alpha geek during much of my adolescence and early adulthood, I used to get questions like "What are flies for? What is the purpose of ants?" It would seem that the sort of biology my friends had learned was little better than just-so stories: earthworms aerate the soil, this plant provides us with this nutrient or that fiber. Their attitude towards nature was completely teleological.

To the extent that you seek the purpose of life, biology doesn't have much to offer, which is not to say that it is thereby impoverished, quite the contrary. But there is an appetite it cannot satisfy.



#34096: — 08/06  at  11:57 PM
A phlosopher who carelessly mixes terms like "evolutionists" and "Darwinists" without clarifying what he means by the terms is well on his way to irrelevance. A philosopher who ignores the political aspect of the controversy over teaching evolution in public schools is alarmingly naive. And a philosopher who fails to acknowledge that his hairsplitting distinction between 'evolution' and 'evolutionism' is going to be taken up as yet another argument against science and evolution by creationists and ID-ers is...my vocabulary fails me.



#34104: — 08/07  at  02:26 AM
I think it's worth pointing out here, that Hitler was no atheist. He believed that god had chosen him to lead the german people, and was convinced that god personally intervened to keep him alive when a group of real German patriots tried to blow him up at Wolf's Lair.

-jcr



#34111: — 08/07  at  05:24 AM
Even if Ruse doesn't say that evolution leads to athieism, and thus is religous, he still says that if evolution leads to atheism, then it is religious, and thus should be illegal, which is nonsense. Atheism is not a religion, and even if it was, that would not make evelution a religion, as it's scientific in nature.

If science could scientifically prove the existence of a god, it wouldn't be religious to teach this to the children.

I'm so tired of Theists being afraid of Atheists. Listen, when you represent 90% of the population, and when every public official are among your numbers, you are not a procecuted minority. The day a US president stands up and say that being a Theist is un-American, then come and complain. Until then, shut up, and stand out of the way of science.



#34120: Rebecca Hartong — 08/07  at  07:07 AM
"I can't understand why I can't get through people's thick skulls on this one. If in fact Darwinian evolutionary theory implies atheism, then you ought not to be teaching it in schools!"

Of course, as Ruse would no doubt agree, despite what many "evolutionists" would have you believe, Darwinian theory does NOT imply atheism. PZ Myers and many of the commenters here seem to have missed this rather important point. Ruse DOES think evolution should be taught in the schools!

Evolution itself has nothing to say about the question of the First Cause and, folks, the First Cause? -- that's where God lives. (Or doesn't live!) The only rational position is agnosticism.

Atheism, by the way, is a statement of faith -- in this case a belief in the non-existence of something about which it's really impossible to know anything at all. See, what too many people do is build their arguments around other people's definitions. Just because some fundamentalist Christians claim the only kind of real god would be one who planted fully-formed humans on earth 10,000 years ago doesn't mean YOU have to accept that definition! If that were the only possible kind of god, then evolution would imply atheism. BUT, that's not the only kind of god. It's not even the only kind of god people who consider themselves Christians believe in.

Don't allow others to set artificially cramped parameters, people!

Michael Ruse understands this problem and that why he rejects the premise that evolution implies atheism.



's avatar #34122: PZ Myers — 08/07  at  07:19 AM
Did you read my post? I thought I was rather loudly saying that evolution is not atheism, and is not taught as a way to proselytize for atheism.

And no, atheism is not a statement of faith—I also stated why I disbelieve, which is not because I have 'faith' in nonexistence, but because believers have not provided any evidence. Why are you trying to build an argument against atheism using your definition, which does not correspond to the ideas of actual atheists?

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34123: — 08/07  at  07:38 AM
And no, atheism is not a statement of faith


Depends on how you define atheism, I suppose.

As understood by many agnostics/skeptics, atheism, like theism, is understood as a dogmatic "assent to one of the non-evident objects of scientific inquiry." See Sextus Empiricus. So understood, atheism is a claim classified more appropriately with the dogmatic claims of the theist than with the scientific theories and conjectures of the scientist.

If you define atheism as merely the non-assent to the theist claims, then you should properly suspend judgment about the ultimate theist claim regarding the existence of a god, and not dogmatically reject it (except, of course, with respect to particular theist claims that run afoul of scientific evidence as much of creationism does).

We skeptics would welcome you.



#34126: — 08/07  at  08:18 AM
Lee, its atheism, not antitheism. The very construction of the word implies that atheism is just non-adherence to theism, not an insistence that the opposite is true. I think a great many atheists call themselves such precisely because they fit this definition. And plenty of folks who believe the exact same thing call themselves agnostics because they don't like the assumption people have about atheists.

Perhaps many or most of us who use atheist have a pretty strong hunch god(s) isn't out there because, well, it seems silly to believe he (she/it/they) is. Y'know, the whole Invisible Pink Unicorn argument. But I'll admit (and I bet PZ would, too) that it's just a strong hunch, not a core belief. Again, I think plenty of agnostics have either that hunch or the opposite (though their hunch-God probably isn't the biblical one, due to conflicts with evidence amassed through science) but think that identifying as atheists would preclude admitting that they don't know for sure about the giant sky fairy's nonexistence.



's avatar #34127: Hank Fox — 08/07  at  08:21 AM
Think about how the concept of Santa Claus sits in your mind.

You once believed in Santa. Now you don't.

Though your disbelief is unproven in a strict, narrow, logical sense, not only do you not have any doubt about the disbelief, it is also NOT a matter of faith. You KNOW there is no Santa because good and sufficient evidence was presented to show you that it was only a story made up by people to tell to kids.

Ditto for atheism. It is disbelief in an assertion of existence for a god, but it is NOT faith.

The assertion of god-existence demonstrates faith.

The firm disbelief in that assertion is NOT faith.



's avatar #34128: PZ Myers — 08/07  at  08:22 AM
Piffle. There needs be nothing dogmatic about atheism: atheism is simply the recognition that extravagant claims require some small portion of evidence before we concede them any support. It is skepticism. Your definition of skepticism seems to require granting any claim, no matter how absurd or extreme, some measure of acceptance in the complete absence of knowledge. I call that gullibility.

And please. Citing long dead Greek philosophers of whom most people have never heard does not reasonably represent the "understood" meaning of a word.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34129: — 08/07  at  08:24 AM
Thanks Hank, you seem to have more practice at saying what I meant. Anyone have a comment on the idea that a lot of folks who are calling themselves agnostic do so because they don't realize that there are plenty of atheists, like Hank and me, who hold precisely the same position?



#34132: — 08/07  at  08:38 AM
Getting back to Ruse, can I just join the crowd hollering "Bullshit!" to his idea that if you think evolution leads to atheism, you can't teach it in schools? So you think the conceptual framework of biology and its vast supporting evidence lead ineluctably to atheism? And you realize that while atheism isn't a religion at all, it's an idea that's not really compatible with the beliefs of the majority of individual conceptions of religion? Fine. Go ahead and teach evolution. You're not teaching anything religious or even remotely related to religion unless you're actually teaching that evolution must entail atheism. Hell, it'd really be okay to mention that you think that once or twice, if it weren't treated as something you had to believe to find evolution useful (or pass the course). Of course, I wouldn't recommend that a teacher mention his attitude on religion at all, to avoid the inevitable shitstorm. But someone should only lose their publicly-funded teaching job if they specifically teach their belief, not just because they believe their subject matter and religious views are intertwined.



#34133: — 08/07  at  08:48 AM
It seems to me that Ruse is increasingly suffering from a disease that many of us philosophers succumb to - assuming there 'must be something to' a position that is held passionately by intelligent people.



's avatar #34136: Hank Fox — 08/07  at  09:08 AM
A followup on my earlier post:

I think most agnostics are timid people afraid to admit to themselves that they really and truly DON'T believe in whatever god-idea or run-of-the-mill holy book happens to rule the minds of their neighbors, and that there are good and LOGICAL reasons, plenty of them, to actively disbelieve.

Probably everybody who visits this site has chuckled at one time or another about the silly, transparent "beliefs" of, for instance, Scientologists. If you know anything at all about Scientology, you know it was made up from scratch by science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.

That chuckle identifies you as something more than an agnostic. You don't walk around wondering about Scientology. Scientology is SILLY. You don't second-guess every statement you might make about it. You dismiss it, you forget it, and you move on to the much more important matters that should occupy your mind.

The problem for disbelief in hyper-religious modern America, however, is just this:

Standing in the middle of a screaming bar-fight, it is impossible to make a quiet, carefully reasoned statement and be heard.

The screaming, chair-throwing people are the ones who get attention paid to them. Even the people who would otherwise hear and understand what you say can’t listen and think in such an environment.

To be heard at all, you have to become emphatic. So that what would normally be a mild, neutral statement, something easy to hear, easy to accept, easy to believe, comes to sound like a frantic shout, freighted with desperation.

Here on this site, where the bar-fight is temporarily paused, I’ll make a few quiet, reasoned statements, some things which aren’t said often enough:

There is not, and never was, any Zeus.

There is not, and never was, any Quetzlcoatl.

There is not, and never was, any Anubis.

There is not, and never was, any White Shell Woman.

See? Perfect quiet. No screaming. No chairs sailing across the room. No knuckles shoved threateningly in your face.

No tablemates saying nervously, “Well, Hank, I ... I ... I don’t think you should be s-saying that out loud. Not HERE.”

Okay, one more:

There is not, and never was, any God.

Feel it? A momentary hush falls over the bar. Any second now, the screams and chair-throwing will start.

But ... screams and chair-throwing don’t change the validity of the statement. There are no such things as gods. There just aren’t. The supernatural superbeings your neighbors “believe” in are silly myths – the latest silly myths in a long, long chain of silly myths.

And most of us darned well know it. We’re just afraid to say it out loud, afraid to say it in mixed company, afraid to say it with confidence. Afraid that we’re somehow being illogical, bad, unjustified. We seem to believe that those screaming and throwing chairs have every right to scream and throw chairs, but that we, with our mild statements of conviction, have no right to speak our piece. To say what we KNOW.

I suggest we all stop self-censoring. Now, today.

Otherwise, we will have to live the rest of our lives in a never-ending bar fight.

Worse – and selfishly – we will doom all the billions who come after us to an environment of screaming, and chair-throwing, and knuckles shoved in their faces.



#34139: — 08/07  at  09:47 AM
The only rational position is agnosticism.

Really? Are you "agnostic" about Santa Claus and his eight flying reindeer? Rudolph with his nose so bright? The elves and their toy factory at the north pole. The one night delivery trip on Christmas Eve, with the 100 million chimneys and the big sack of goodies? All those milk and cookies?

If you are, let me commend you on your immaculate rationality.

I know its deeply irrational of me, but I can't shake my religious faith that those things are completely false.



#34143: — 08/07  at  10:00 AM
PZ,
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding of Ruse's position here. Ruse is not wailing on the strawman of conflating atheism with evolution. Note the conditional: "If Darwinian evolution implies atheism then you ought not be teaching it in schools." The antecedent, according to Ruse, is false, as is the consequent. He is simply trying to focus (create?) interest in the question of whether the connection holds. He knows the answer as well as you do. The interesting thing for him is "Why belief in evolution doesn't lead to atheism and how can we explain this to people? That's his thing.
The Nazi stuff is probably the first analogy that he could think of for a position that has ethical-belief implications. It's certainly disanalagous in ways, but he isn't calling you or me a facist. He's providing an example of what the creationist think we're doing given their belief that belief in evolution leads to atheism. Kind of a reverse Hitler supplex, I suppose.



#34147: — 08/07  at  10:21 AM
Joe, we understand, and Ruse is wrong. If evolution is good science (which it is) it should be taught in school whether it contradicts religious beliefs or not.



#34149: — 08/07  at  10:34 AM
I agree. Most people don't. Isn't that interesting? How can pointing out something interesting be wrong? I suppose if it's not interesting...



#34152: — 08/07  at  10:59 AM
PZ opines:
Piffle. There needs be nothing dogmatic about atheism: atheism is simply the recognition that extravagant claims require some small portion of evidence before we concede them any support. It is skepticism. Your definition of skepticism seems to require granting any claim, no matter how absurd or extreme, some measure of acceptance in the complete absence of knowledge. I call that gullibility.


Well piffle back at ya. Given your misunderstanding of what skepticism entails, I can understand why Ruse upsets you so.

For those who might actually care, however, skepticism involves the tentative suspense of judgment regarding dogmatic claims made by people like theists and atheists. Some agnostics (and Academic Skeptics) will go beyond this Pyrrhonian skepticism and assert that we cannot know whether atheism or theism are correct.

And please. Citing long dead Greek philosophers of whom most people have never heard does not reasonably represent the "understood" meaning of a word.


I can't speak to the education of "most people." I had assumed we were speaking in a forum where people might have an appreciation for how terms are used in an academic setting and where even long dead Greek philosophers have some value.



#34158: Rebecca Hartong — 08/07  at  11:48 AM
"For those who might actually care, however, skepticism involves the tentative suspense of judgment regarding dogmatic claims made by people like theists and atheists. Some agnostics (and Academic Skeptics) will go beyond this Pyrrhonian skepticism and assert that we cannot know whether atheism or theism are correct."

Precisely, Lee, and thank you for putting it so eloquently.

While I'm here, let me also briefly dissect out the fault in the Santa Claus argument.

Santa Claus is a "being" for whom tests of existence can easily be carried out. Santa Claus is, supposedly, a part of the natural world. He's supposedly visible, he supposedly appears at a predictable time every year, and so on.

The "Santa Exists!" hypothesis is easy to disprove.

The existence of a Supreme Being who is the First Cause of the natural universe but who is, Himself, <i>outside
the natural universe, though... that's a whole 'nother kind of problem. Since all we have at our disposal are methods for testing phenomena in the natural universe, there is simply no way to prove -- or disprove -- the existence of such a Being. Statements about the existence or non-existence of such a being must, by definition, be based on something other than reason. In short, they're statements of faith.

Of course, if you limit yourself to a Christian fundamentalist definition of what God is, you find yourself in an easier position -- but that's sort of taking the intellectually lazy way out, in my opinion.

The only rational answer to questions about the existence of a God who is outside nature is "I don't know" -- with, if you like, a delicious creamy topping of "but personally, I'm skeptical that such a Being exists."



's avatar #34163: PZ Myers — 08/07  at  12:10 PM
Umm, Santa Claus is most definitely not a natural being. He visits every single kid in the world in a single night...don't you find that a little bit spooky? The Santa myth can be easily formulated to be untestable, just as the God myth routinely is.

And no, that isn't the best rational answer -- it accords far more credibility to the purported phenomenon than it deserves. Would you answer the same way to questions about the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the most delicious banana cream pie ever made resting on the surface of Io?

The best answer is "No. But if you have evidence, I'll change my mind." It lets you avoid wasting time on ridiculous guesses, and puts the onus where it belongs—on the gomer making the assertion.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34168: — 08/07  at  12:36 PM
Yoni wrote:
Lee, its atheism, not antitheism. The very construction of the word implies that atheism is just non-adherence to theism, not an insistence that the opposite is true. I think a great many atheists call themselves such precisely because they fit this definition.


You are certainly free to define words however you choose. If you wish to define atheism as the suspense of judgment regarding theism, for example, you can do that. It is an odd thing to do if clarity of communication with those "gomers" is your goal, but hey, who said atheists had to be any better at communication than theists?



#34169: — 08/07  at  12:43 PM
Hartong: Atheism, by the way, is a statement of faith -- in this case a belief in the non-existence of something about which it's really impossible to know anything at all. ...

Don't allow others to set artificially cramped parameters, people!


Including Hartong's definition of atheism...

I recently had reason to look in my truck's owner's manual, and didn't see a single reference to any gods - does this prove that Dodge is an atheistic corporation? (a-theist = without a god, just as a-political means without politics; neither implies a denial that the missing topic exists.) Just think how much more confidence all the believers would have in Dodge products if the manuals said, "Change oil every 3,000 miles; pray. Change oil filter every 6,000 miles; pray. ..."



#34170: — 08/07  at  12:49 PM
You once believed in Santa. Now you don't.

Though your disbelief is unproven in a strict, narrow, logical sense ...


Isn't that the same sense in which evolution is "unproven"? While there may be no proof, there's plenty of evidence for the non-existence of Santa: the fact that he's never shown up on radar, that the presents attributed to him can be traced to other sources, etc. There's none whatsoever for the non-existence of god.

its atheism, not antitheism. The very construction of the word implies that atheism is just non-adherence to theism, not an insistence that the opposite is true.

That depends on how you divide the word. A-theism, is indeed a lack of theism, but athe-ism is a belief in the non-existence of god. Since the dictionary defines atheism as "Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods", I suspect the latter division is the correct one.

plenty of folks who believe the exact same thing call themselves agnostics because they don't like the assumption people have about atheists.


I see, so agnostics are undecided about god and just don't have the guts to proclaim it loudly.

I think most agnostics are timid people afraid to admit to themselves that they really and truly DON'T believe in whatever god-idea or run-of-the-mill holy book happens to rule the minds of their neighbors, and that there are good and LOGICAL reasons, plenty of them, to actively disbelieve.


I see, so agnostics are decided about the non-existence of god and just don't have the guts to admit it to themselves.

I call myself an agnostic for a number of reasons. First, because I believe there is and can be no objective evidence one way or the other for the existence of god. I suspect most atheists would agree with that statement, but few actually believe it. They tend to do a little slight of hand at the end by which they conclude the lack of evidence is in itself evidence for non-existence. I say, "bullshit". That would only be true if -- as the case of Santa on the radar -- there was an expectation of evidence. With god there is not, so the lack of evidence proves/suggests/implies absolutely NOTHING.

Second, I call myself an agnostic because I don't really fit the category of either "theist" or "atheist". I am not an atheist because I believe there is something wondrous and transcedental both of the world and beyond it, a True Nature beyond the reach of science and rationality. I am not a theist because I don't think of that something wondrous as a being. I see enough correspondence between that something and what the mystics call 'god' to think it must be