PZ Myers. 2004 Dec 25. Christmas in NYC. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/christmas_in_nyc/>. Accessed 2008 Dec 01.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Saturday, December 25, 2004
Christmas in NYC
We've had an uneventful trip so far, and are safely ensconced in a cheap hotel near Central Park. We've been taking long walks around the area, gawking like a bunch of tourists.
I'm definitely an atheist. Here it is, Christmas Day, and we walked by the Cathedral of St. Patrick with its bells pounding and mobs of people milling inside, and I looked at that building and discovered what 'visceral revulsion' felt like. It's hideous. I saw that looming overly ornate lump of gray and thought there really ought to be a burning eye suspended at the top. My wife insisted we go inside, so we went through the annoying security checkpoint and stood at the back while a fat priest in fancy robes sermonized at the front of the place. I felt nothing but contempt, and we fought our way through the crowds to get out. So much money, so much effort wasted on ostentatious display for wicked superstition…I felt like I'd found the rotting heart of evil in New York City.
There I was in my jolly Santa hat, feeling dirty and disgusted. It really sucked the Christmas cheer right out of me.
So we walked on, down Fifth Avenue, drawn by the beacon of the Empire State Building way down there, and then I saw something that restored my faith in humanity. Something grand and beautiful. A huge old building in a classical style, covered with statues and inscriptions.
The New York Public Library.
Honestly, I felt like dropping to my knees in reverence. My heart grew two sizes right there. This was a religious feeling, to see knowledge dressed in such honor; it's unfortunate that it wasn't open on Christmas Day so that we could go inside and worship. Read that banner: "The Newtonion Moment: Science and the Making of Modern Culture".
We're going tomorrow. I think. We're also planning to spend the day at the AMNH (Frogs! Butterflies! Northwest art! Dinosaurs!), so it's going to be difficult to tear ourselves away from one temple of knowledge to visit another.
We definitely won't be setting foot in another church while we're here. It's going to take a while to wash that taste out of my mouth.
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The burning eye image is brilliant! Ha-ha, I'll remember that one a long time.
I think of such buildings as "frozen wealth." They cost a LOT to build, they're on some of the most expensive, and tax-free, property in the city, and they're multiplied uncounted thousands of times all over the world, and all through human history.#: Posted by on 12/25 at 04:37 PM - ...yes, but they brought us spandrels!
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i'm recent to your blog : and let me say i do like it. thanks (especially your critique of creationism). but your take on the temple of knowledge seems to speak more of your own emotional baggage than anything else.
how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context? i can't help but feel that your animosity toward things christian is not shared by the 'temple of knowledge' you wish to worship at. -
Give my regards to Patience and Fortitude: during my formative years, my first destination when cutting school was that glorious building...
#: Posted by on 12/25 at 07:13 PM
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PZ, only you could make this sound endearing. Enjoy yourself in NYC -- hey, maybe you'll run into my sister, bro-in-law, and nephews, who arrive tomorrow! Anyway, have fun, and I look forward to my next visit to MN, or yours to MO.
#: Posted by Jay Manifold on 12/25 at 07:20 PM
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how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context?
Gosh, Stu, probably shitloads of 'em. However, more important questions might be: How much misery and misguided persecutions and death -- and just plain lost opportunities -- have such books brought to humans throughout history?
And how much of the comfort, health and wealth of modern civilization have come from those OTHER books, the ones with actual knowledge in them?
More specifically, in only one field, that of health: How many lives have been ended, how much health has been destroyed, by superstition and religious falsehoods? And how much health has been improved, how many lives have been saved, by the science of medicine?
And jeez, if you ask me, there's one helluva clear difference between what cathedrals PROMOTE and what libraries PROVIDE.#: Posted by on 12/25 at 08:30 PM -
Oh, Northwest Coast art. That sounds like quite the entertaining exhibit.
And coturnix, always nice to see the good side of things. -
Well, PZ, if the City makes you depressed with its density of religious establishments, you should definitely avoid Paris. I should think that would make you positively nauseous.
A thought experiment: Would it be as sickening if these were all polytheistic temples? That's religion, after all. Yet polytheists tend to be reasonable sorts of folk, at least regarding religion. Far more tolerant. Indeed, they may want to rob or enslave you, but they leave your soul alone.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/25 at 10:12 PM -
Hank Fox sayeth in part:
I think of such buildings as “frozen wealth.” They cost a LOT to build, they’re on some of the most expensive, and tax-free, property in the city, and they’re multiplied uncounted thousands of times all over the world, and all through human history.
At least they have some kind of character. It takes a corporate business to be truly wasteful. We have an albatross down the street, courtesy of the Itsy Bitsy Machines Corporation, once big in these here parts. They spent almost a billion dollars on that hunk, its labs and equipment. They demanded NY State Electric and Gas put them in their own electrical subdivision, because they didn't want to share it with the local community. And now they've abandoned it, leaving empty buildings, with a gorgeous view from parts of the insides.
The new cathedrals are buildings like those of Aetna USHealthCare in Middletown, CT. You approach their property for a couple of miles, and there is nothing but forest, landscape, and parking lots to any side of it. It sits there, a big ugly glass box in the center, ready to be abandoned or subdivided should the fortunes of its holder change.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/25 at 10:19 PM -
how many religious texts are in the library? how many texts are affected by religious context? i can’t help but feel that your animosity toward things christian is not shared by the ‘temple of knowledge’ you wish to worship at.
At a guess, the reason he doesn't mind libraries even though they have religious texts is because the libraries are not explicitly endorsing the religion. They have religious books because they're books, not because they're religious. They are devoted to literature; the presence of religious literature is a side effect, as it were. Churches, on the other hand, are devoted explicitly to religion. Hence PZ's animosity.#: Posted by on 12/25 at 11:55 PM -
Heh, these library worshipping/superstition bashing sentiments are a welcome counter-balance and just what I needed for the season.
I hope you and your family are enjoying the trip, PZ.
#: Posted by on 12/25 at 11:56 PM -
hank asksHow much misery and misguided persecutions and death — and just plain lost opportunities — have such books brought to humans throughout history?
you have a point hank that could be equally applied to the texts of many physics journals (as an example) that have paved the discovery for nuclear weapons and other weapons of misery and destruction and perscution and death. let's not call religion the bogey man here. let's call the corruption of knowledge the bogey man (if one needs to be found). and i have to ask, have areligious institutions done any better in being non-oppressive? you can't think that any idealogical framework isn't succeptible to abuse?
my point was that it's been within a theological/philosophical framework that much of history's great thought has taken shape. the library is testimony to this as well as documenting its history (which has been both sordid as you point out and inspiring which you cannot deny on behalf of all those who find it so).
Patrick makes a fair point—thanks. -
I'll take the reaction to St. Patrick's as a bit of snark and perhaps the reaction to the crowds. And, after all, as cathedral's go, it aint much. I enjoy cathedrals mostly because they're fine places for art. In fact, if you had more time, I'd suggest a trip up to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, which runs a truly fine arts program and is a vital part of its community.
Enjoy AMNH! My favorite has always been Meteorites, Minerals and Gems. And the Dinosaurs. And the Early Mammals. And, well, pretty much the whole thing.#: Posted by on 12/26 at 12:25 AM -
Will you be visiting any academics/curators while at the AMNH? If so, say hi to Joel Cracraft
#: Posted by John Wilkins on 12/26 at 12:35 AM -
<objectives which had absolutely no applications other than the pure pursuit of knowledge. In the end, of course, they often and deeply helped improve the art of engineering and the furtherance of the practical. But putting the practical first is <i>never</i> how science works.
A purer realization can be had with mathematics. It is a continuing wonder math is as useful as it is. Its best forms arise when completely disconnected from anything practical. Indeed, it seems its creativity is firmly handicapped if limited to solving the practical.
The misapplication and misunderstanding of science in the guise of engineering and social policy is legendary. Look only to the failures associated with the Challenger and Columbia Space Shuttle disasters to see how knowledge can be corrupted. This has very little to do with science, and very much to do with the profit motive. All the more so with power on the order available to nuclear devices.
Nonetheless, the smallest bit of knowledge can always be misapplied. Had the confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union continued, you can trust me, on good authority, that the physics and properties of bubbles and cavitation in beer would have been crucially important towards determining the outcome of the military confrontation during the first decades of the 21st century.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 01:39 AM -
(Completely unrelated)
Here's something I myself found interestng - Darwinian Poetry.
<ahref="http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html">http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html</a>#: Posted by on 12/26 at 06:18 AM -
Forgive me, it's late.
http://www.codeasart.com/poetry/darwin.html#: Posted by on 12/26 at 06:20 AM -
The religions themselves are superstitious nonsense, but I do love cathedrals. And the music, and the art. For a long time the churches had first call on the talents of all sorts of creative people, and they came up with some pretty nice stuff.
PZ, here's a mixed experience for you: go to Pisa, and visit the cathedral next to the Leaning Tower. You'll be torn between your reaction to the church itself and your knowledge that the back pews are where Galileo sat and figured out that the period of a pendulum was independent of the size of its oscillation. He was bored, of course, and timed the movements of the chandeliers using his pulse as a timepiece. -
They have religious books because they’re books, not because they’re religious.
Indeed, and it is appropriate at this juncture to remind you all of the scene in that well-known scientific documentary The Day After Tomorrow. A small group hiding from the Death Storm is holed up in no other place than NY's Public Library, and are forced to burn books to keep warm. One man refuses to consign a Gutenberg bible to the flames. Asked is he is religious, he says no, in fact he is an atheist; but Gutenberg's work is one of the pinnacles of human achievement, and he will save it all costs.
Mind you, I have no idea whether the NYPL actually posesses a Gutenberg.
As for me, I find St Patrick's cathedral an abomination primarily because it is a monument to Disneyland pseudogothic. It buttresses have no need to fly (just as well, as they're vestigial); the 'stonework' of its interior vaults is of papier-mâché. There is a time and a place for everything, and 19th c. New York was neither the time nor place for gothic.#: Posted by Mrs Tilton on 12/26 at 01:54 PM -
There is a time and a place for everything, and 19th c. New York was neither the time nor place for gothic.
But the goth may be appropriate now.
#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 02:15 PM -
Interesting Evolution/Creation thread on dKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/26/01621/658 -
No mention that December 25 is Newton's Birthday? Shouldn't this post be retitled "Newton's Birthday in NYC"?
#: Posted by Doug Tygar on 12/26 at 05:10 PM
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I never cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled lifestyle. That church is a gorgeous work of neo-gothic architecture. Even a secular-minded individual, like me, can recognize that and have an appreciation for it.
And that library is even more beautiful; a fine example of the neo-classical style promoted by Benjamin Franklin upon seeing some Roman architecture in France. Funny thing is, PZ should hate it as well, since the architecture that library is based on was built originally in order of the various Greek and Roman gods.
So, the architecture of the church and the architecture of the library are not very far removed from each other at all; they are both based on religious architecture. All it does is demonstrate the ignorance of PZ concerning religion and the architecture in regards to the history of Western Civilization. - *in order to honor the various Greek and Roman gods.
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The Arcane annunciated in part:<style.</blockquote>that's a bit much, don't ya think? a portion of PZ's post was tongue-in-cheek. he certainly lavished camera and page space on the Gothic Monster. of course PZ will comment himself and is perfectly capable of defending himself. but there's no way i would call him "hate-filled".
#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 06:52 PM
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(Let's try that again.)
The Arcane annunciated in part:
<style.</blockquote>
That's a bit much, don't ya think? A portion of PZ's post was tongue-in-cheek. He certainly lavished camera and page space on the Gothic Monster. Of course PZ will eventually comment himself and is perfectly capable of defending himself. But there's no way I consider him or would call him "hate-filled".#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 06:54 PM -
The quote missing from the above said:
<style.</i>
Don't know why it didn't show up.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 06:55 PM -
I n-e-v-e-r cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled l-i-f-e-s-t-y-l-e
#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 06:56 PM
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Is there a crack in progress?
#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/26 at 06:57 PM
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That church is a gorgeous work of neo-gothic architecture.
Isn't that an oxymoron?
A person's tastes can be different. I happen to think St. Patrick's Church is an eyesore, and it has nothing to do with it being a religious building and everything to do with being an example of "Disneyland pseudogothic," as Mrs. Tilton beautifully put it. You could give me 10 of the same, and I don't think it would be worth even one beam of Thorncrown Chapel. - The coding on this blog doesn't work very much. Some people are lucky and get it to work, somebody aren't so much. I've had mine appear perfect in the preview sections only to not work on the actual post. Sometimes, it will even delete whole sections of your text...
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Kevin,
PZ made it well known in his post that he especially disliked it because of reasons concerning religion. -
After reading this post, I wandered upon this blog (via boingboing.)
St Pat's is creepy enough, but if you need digi-photos to underline the darkness of organised religion, here ya go:
http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/silver_p/kutna-1.html
Everything dies: but not every animal is inspired to make a family coat-of-arms out of the remains of their enemy.#: Posted by on 12/26 at 07:22 PM -
Arcane,
While I appreciate and share both PZ's opinion here and your own apparent respect for religious art, I think it's a bit of a stretch to posit that he lives a "hate-filled lifestyle" based on the opinion he presented here. Of course, that is for him to rebut if he so chooses, but I don't see his comments to be indicative of a hate-filled lifestyle. Most atheists are motivated, after all, by a sincere commitment to humanitarian causes, and judging from what I gather about PZ after a few weeks of perusing his site, he shares that commitment (hell, he is a teacher - what's more benevolent a profession than that?).
I do, however, think it is important to acknowledge that religion is a cultural institution, so it follows that it will be affected by the culture in which it exists. In this case, it is rather odd that so much money and effort would be spent on building this neogothic cathedral as a place of worship for a religion that initially was built on renouncement of material gain. I doubt the historical man Jesus, the man who gave that "sermon on the mount" speech, would have approved. But, considering the culture, the US (and Europe historically) seems to have a penchant for adapting the worst aspects of the Christian religion, rather than the more benevolent ones. So I can see PZ's disgust with this building.
What I struggle with, though, is wether the awe inspired by these expensive buildings is a suitable replacement for the social welfare which could have been achieved by the same monetary output.
Jamie#: Posted by on 12/26 at 07:28 PM -
maryh,
Now you're onto something. The people who built those places had to have been insane. Although they are fascinating, in a morbid sort of way, and I am amazed at how carefully crafted and designed they are.
Jamie,
I say "hate-filled" because the way he loathes and automatically dismisses everything that might have to do with religion is dogmatic to the extreme. He reminds me of neo-Nazis who dismiss practically everything because some Jews were involved in it.
And as far as that building being expensive, it's very, very old. I'd say they probably spent about the same amount building it as a small corporation would spend on it's HQ today.
Churches conduct a massive amount of social welfare services on money that is given to them voluntarily by their members... don't dismiss them and their members quite so quickly. -
Arcane, ahem.
You know that part where you say "I never cease to be astounded by old PZ and his hate-filled lifestyle"?
Talk about projection. Jeez. -
Arcane does have a problem with projection.
I can listen to Bach with nothing but pleasure, even though religion is embedded deep in his music. I'm well aware that the classical style is derived from a culture that made atheism a death-penalty offense. I've said nothing about taking Nazi-style approaches to addressing the "problem", and find the very idea repugnant to an extreme.
I think the church is a waste of money and time and human effort; don't give me that tired old crap about their social efforts when I can walk into a massive building on some of the most expensive real estate in the world, all of it dedicated to glorifying a non-existent being and enriching a hierarchy of drones. What it reminds me of is Stalin-style state architecture: massive wastefulness to maintain the cult. -
Does Sam Raimi know about this place? Seems like it would make a spendid dark gothic set for the next Spiderman movie.
#: Posted by on 12/27 at 11:06 AM
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I think the church is a waste of money and time and human effort
Yes, but it seems to have done its intended job, to wit: distracting you from the decades of child molestation performed by the owners.#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 12/27 at 11:23 AM -
LMAO Chris! Now that's funny.
And Hank, would you like to explain yourself? -
Enjoy your vacation!
If you see my kids walking around say hi! (Yea, I know, you are in New York City and there are millions). When I lived there I was truely amazed by how often I'd get asked whether I knew so and so.
The kids arrive late tonight and will be there until Sunday doing tourist stuff and attending evening concerts:
6'6.5" reddish blond crewcut young 20s guy and
5'11+" blond 19ish girl
They have read this post so might even recognize you...)
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No, Arcane, I wouldn't like to explain myself.
"Projection" is an in-joke among us evil atheists, far too rich and subtle for one such as you.
Besides, why should I give away our amusing little secrets to people like you? You might as well ask me to share the Secret Atheist Handshake, or let you wear my atheist lodge Large Funny Hat. -
Hank,
So you're just a name-caller. Lovely. Just shows your intellectual brilliance. *rolls eyes* -
Oh, and I'm well aware of what you mean by "projection," however you still haven't exactly explained what I've said that is hateful.
I think you're probably an extremely hate-filled person, as evidenced by the fact that you consider yourself superior to any and all who disagree with you. -
So you’re just a name-caller.
Um, Arcane? That argument doesn't really work too well after you compare a whole group of commenters to the Nazis.#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 12/27 at 04:00 PM -
Hank Fox is extremely hate filled. Arcane's genocidal god is all-loving. Welcome to Opposite Land.
Homer: Wait wait wait, so in August it's cold?
Lisa: That's right.
Homer: And in February, it's hot?
Lisa: Mmhmm.
Homer: So it's opposite land! Crooks chase cops, cats have puppies!
Lisa: No, dad, it's just the weather.
Homer: So hot snow falls up?
Lisa: :sighs: Yes.#: Posted by on 12/28 at 11:05 AM -
By Godwin's Law, Arcane automatically lost the argument.
#: Posted by on 12/28 at 11:08 AM
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Y'all get your panties in a wad over the silliest things. PZ, you're the only person I know of who has religious fervor for NOT believing. FWIW, the left-over marble from NY's St. Marks was sold to a soda-pop (!) manufacturer to become bubbles. Cool, huh? Religion is like, so ante-20th Century. The only religion still going is Islam and those dimwits (Arabic speakers) translate fewer books than Greece.
Science won by default. Why are you still jumping up and down when there's more research to be done?
Speaking of cool stuff to see in NYC, PZ—check out the Met's Arms and Armor exhibit, there's a daisho to die for in the case.#: Posted by on 12/29 at 03:01 PM -
Chris Clarke: By the way, why didn't you warn me about the weather? After an exquisite transit of several segments of the Tonopah Tidewater I dared the weather over the dome to Kelso—and all were punish-ed. Between the aa flow and the Joshua forest the winds gusted so hard it slammed the windshield, pinching my fingers against the wheel. Yikes! I noted the libs paved the roads, ostensibly so Volvos could be driven to the trail (read old road) heads.
Half-expected to see you and Happy Hound at the railroad crossing.#: Posted by on 12/29 at 05:48 PM -
Happy hound doesn't like the Mojave much.
Oh, and those roads have been paved since before Volvi made it here.#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 12/29 at 07:39 PM -
I'm a bad atheist. (Actually, I'm not sure I'm an atheist at all. I doubt there's any sort of "god" and if there is something that "created" this universe, I suspect that entity has no access to us, and no interest other than a detached scientific sort, but that's another post.) I went to church last Sunday with my parents in the interests of family unity. I was sort of hoping they would inadvertently attend a church that's a den of liberalism and tolerance (they were visiting us and needless to say, I wouldn't really know), but the service was pretty standard without any political musings whatsoever. Anyway, that's not what makes me bad. That would be when I went to take communion with them. All during the service I put off thinking about it, and then I spent a few minutes debating whether it would be worth it to stand firm and say, "I'm not going to take part in this ridiculous ritual which symbolizes something I have no belief in whatsoever" when I know my parents would not have been happy. So I'm a hypocrite. I didn't say anything. I know my parents went away from it a little happier, no doubt thinking that I'm not completely "lost" and still have some of the religion of my youth. Or whatever.
Then they wanted to know why my husband didn't go to church with his parents, the Mormons. I think his exact words were "There's no way in hell I'm going to put up with that." I just said he didn't want to get dressed up and then have to deal with them popping up on our doorstep again next week. I do feel bad that it's easier for us to let them believe whatever they want to believe than to tell them the truth. I overheard my dad and his dad talking one morning before we got out of bed, and I oculd hear them talking about churchy stuff. I wouldn't have gotten up during that conversation for all the money in the world. I heard my father say that he knew after we have children our priorities would change, and that like them, we'd come to see Jesus as the most important thing in our lives. That doesn't even make sense!
OK, I've said my peace. I'm too chicken shit to say it on my blog. -
Stacy, Acknowledging and living with our contradictions is a sign of maturity.
#: Posted by on 12/30 at 10:54 PM
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Stacy, you're not a bad atheist.
If a big kid beat up your child on the playground, it would be okay to want to slap the little bastard -- as long as you were opposed in every other way to playground violence.
There's the SPECIFIC situation, and then there's the GENERAL situation.
It's okay to keep the peace in your family by bending a little bit. You just proved that you were more thoughtful and flexible than your parents, which is no small thing.
Out in the public political/social arena -- the GENERAL situation -- is where these issues really matter. As long as you continue to speak, write and vote against the fundie takeover, you can probably forgive yourself this minor transgression.
Heh. Come to think of it, I could cite you numerous authorities who don't practice in private what they preach in public: Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict, Jim Bakker was an adulterer, and Jimmy Swaggart consorted with prostitutes.
Going to church with your parents is at least an order of magnitude different in severity. I'm sure the Sweet Baby Jesus will forgive you too. -
Heh. Thanks for comparing me to Jim Bakker and Rush Limbaugh. I feel much better now.
Seriously, I see what you mean, and thanks. I want to be better than those kinds of people. Even though I know I'm never going to change my parents' minds about anything, in theory I should at least be able to show them that yes, you can be a person with strong morals and an upright citizen and someone who flosses and brushes everyday - and still not believe in god. Maybe all in good time. -
Well, it's one thing to build a Gothic cathedral in 1250, something else again to do it in 1950.
The newer ones don't fall down as often as the originals, you have to give them that.
There is also a difference between being inspired by the great artworks of the past today, and using the benighted ideas of the past to guide your life today.
I just finished Mohr's 'Plague and Fire' about how 3 courageous bacteriologists managed to eradicate a plague epidemic in Honolulu in 1900. The Catholic bishop of Honolulu objected, at the time, that the people were putting their faith in science instead of throwing themselves on the mercy of God.
As if they hadn't done that back in the 14th century, and with what results?
At some point, you have to get over religion.
Arcane's 'facts' are pretty funny. I think he's got Franklin confused with Jefferson, who was so impressed by the Maison Carree that he invented Roman Revival architecture in America. ('The first, and last, Roman Revival architect in North America,' as my architecture prof put it.)
In any event, if Arcane did mean Franklin, Franklin could hardly have been inspired to neo-Gothic by looking at Roman architecture.
Nor is it likely that Franklin, the greatest enemy of organized religion this country ever produced, either gave advice to Catholics, or that they would have accepted it if he had.
Here's a little known fact for you, Arcane.
In early 18th century Boston, the religious leaders were certain that babies were born on the day of the week they were conceived on, and since copulation was forbidden on Sundays, any woman who gave birth on Sunday was a self-demonstrated.
Franklin's mother went into labor with him on a Sunday, and since they lived within a few steps of South Church, she had to endure her labor without making a sound.
Torturing mothers is bad practice.#: Posted by on 01/02 at 02:29 PM
