DarkSyde. 2004 Dec 29. What's Really Important?. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/whats_more_important_guns_or_aid/>. Accessed 2008 Dec 01.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Wednesday, December 29, 2004
What's Really Important?
Deep under the now scenic, placid blue seas of southeast Asia, a geological horror is forming of gargantuan proportions. One which will leave its novel signature for eons in the rocky column. A new layer of strata has been laid down, but this deposit is uniquely macabre. It's a hominid bone-bed. Mixed in with the newly forming sandstones, limestones, shales, and chalk, are the remains of a civilization. Homes, trees, crops, cars, factories. And the unthinkable human toll: 300,000* dead men, women, and children. The last thoughts they had must have been rife with stark raving terror. At least tonight they lay peacefully, no longer wide eyed in fear, the final echo of their lives flickering through their oxygen deprived psyche. At least that part is over, for them; back in the earth from which we all, ultimately, arise and then return.On the altered coastlines of Sumatra, Indonesia and nearby countries, whole villages are missing; there's just water, sand, and debris where entire towns once stood. To estimate the dead, local officials, the few who are left, are having to consult maps with GPS coordinates and then looking to see if there's still a community at that location. If there is nothing but rubble, or, even more startling, a pristine clean beach with no trace of survivors or homes, shops, and streets, they take the last population reported, and add it to the growing list of victims. It's that bad.
And, it's not over. This tragedy isn't over by a long shot. More will die, perhaps as many as have already perished in the blink of one bright Sunday morning, perhaps more. There are tens of millions of stunned, injured, and homeless people, some dying as I write this, stumbling around aimlessly in mosquito-infested swamps looking desperately for food, for clothing, for their loved ones; hoping against hope to find anyone they know. They are looking for a way to live. They are fighting for their very right to exist. Sadly, those survivors are going to be cut down in great numbers from the ensuing starvation, disease, lack of medicine, and the inevitable, panic-induced violence.
Many of the affected countries have a high population of Muslims. These tend to be the moderate Muslim nations. The cultures which have helped us the most in the fight against Al Qaeda. These are the very people who we would like to enlist in helping us fight international Islamic Militants, and the ones who are most likely to cooperate in doing so. They are industrious people, known for their commitment to science and education. But the real reason we have to help is not because of what they can do for us, but because of what we can do for them; our brothers and sisters, our grand nieces and maternal nephews, in our great family. They need help.
Wouldn't you think this catastrophe would be the kind of thing we, as a nation, would want to reach out to and soften, anyway we can? Even if it's not something that's going to directly benefit us? That we'd want to lend a hand, no matter who the victims are? If not now, when? If not for this, what for? If not for political gain, for simple humanity? For decency?
FOR VALUES?
Because we are all human, and this is utter human devastation. This could have been us. It's human misery on the scale of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is 100 Titanics. This is twice the Vietnam War. And it's something we could make an enormous difference in, the most serious kind of difference, the difference between life and death, for thousands of our fellow travelers rocketing around our local star on this small world we all share.
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to make a political statement here, this isn't the appropriate place for that kind of thing. This disaster transcends petty politics, no doubt. But, I have to say honestly, I'm effin ashamed of my country. We first pledged 15 million, and then increased it to 40 million. Forty-Million dollars ... Sounds like a lot? To put that in perspective, we're going to spend 40 to 50 million in Washington, DC, in one afternoon, on the Presidential Inauguration. To give our pledge some context, we're spending about 100 to 200 million dollars a day in Iraq. We spend damn near 40 million for beer, chips, and soft drinks in this country every day.
Our leaders, the leaders of the richest, most prosperous nation on Earth, could have been flown in on Air Force One and other senior executive aircraft to the region in a few hours, check-book in hand, to respectfully represent our sorrow, our grief, and most important, our life-saving generosity. Surely that would have made a better photo-op than a carrier landing. They could have shown the Muslim World and the international community what the America you and I know is really about, and done so in a positive, charitable way. Instead, our White House is on vacation ... Godamn, our response so far makes me feel ashamed to be an American. It's not just poor leadership and poor PR, it's immoral.
And you know what? I don't have to put up with that shit. I don't have to let those assholes speak for me. I just gave 50 dollars to Red Crescent, earmarked to save my brothers lives, and I feel pretty damn good about doing it! I felt so good about it, I gave another fifty for those of you who may be struggling. It's a few days after Christmas, it would be truthful for me to say that things are a little tighter than usual around DarkSyde Manor. But that's a cop-out. I can easily afford it. Hell, by not eating fast food at lunch for a month I can afford it. Save lives and avoid fast food for a month? That's a bargain I can't pass up.
I realize we have a lot of students, single moms, single dads, folks who are sick, and on fixed incomes, reading this site and making up this wonderful zany community we call Pharyngula. But if you can give a little, please think about it. Not everyone can afford to give a hundred bucks, not everyone can afford to give anything at all, but if you can spare ten dollars, get off your duff and do it. Just because our leaders think billions in corporate welfare, and mega buck weapons systems to kill people, are better ways to spend money than saving the helpless victims of disaster, doesn't mean I have to let them speak for me. And I won't.
Lots of ways you can contribute are being tracked by The Command Post. They're really on top of this, and I think they deserve some recogniton. Even if you can't spare the change, maybe some of us could go visit their Blog and say howdy to them, and let them know how we feel.
Update: Crooked Timber has a deal up concerning Amazon for donations. Hat Tip: Isabel who also has some additional donation info
on her Blog.
UPDATE: Death Toll now estimated at over 200,000, expected to rise to perhaps 400,000. Several medium sized cities in Indonesia cannot be located reliably. No survivors see in aeriel surveys.
Update: In comments JBarker asked: I’m still seeing 124,000 dead on the BBC. Are these extrapolations taking into account starvation and disease in the coming weeks? Or are they still just referring to the immediate tsunami death toll?
Last night on MSNBC's News Program Countdown with Keith Olbler, several local reporters were discussing an aerial reconnaissance survey of the hardest hit area in Indonesia. Apparently, at least three medium sized cities, with population in the 100,000 or so each, are basically ... gone. They reported no structures left standing, no survivors sighted. The affected urban centers cannot be reached at this time by land; the roads are gone, the terrain is treacherously swamped out marshland. It is unknown if the residents had time to flee in large numbers, but the reporters and officials are assuming the worst.
- Well spoken.
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This world is pretty clearly indifferent to human misery-- all the more reason for us to act, to help out. Canada's pledge so far comes to 40 million (a touch over $32 U.S.) (we added $100 of our own to that) Perhaps the comparison could be used to help pry $320 million out of Washington... it's just a start on what will be needed, but the sooner substantial relief arrives, the fewer who will die in the aftermath.
#: Posted by Bryson Brown on 12/29 at 08:22 PM
- Yeah I'll tell you, thinking about this makes me really appreciate those poor dinos we enjoy finding and digging up in large bone beds. Gives it a whole new perspective.
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Thanks for the post DS, and the Red Crescent is a nice touch. On my way over with a $50 of my own.
#: Posted by on 12/29 at 09:33 PM
- BTW, The Rude Pundit says some of what I'd like to say about this.
- Pefectly said. "I don't have to let those assholes speak for me". And I didn't. I don't have a choice over the $200,000,000/day but I do have a choice over $50. Thank you.
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The RP says it well. Shrub cant appear to have too much concern for foreigners or he might lose the all important Bircher vote. Under Shrub the US only does international work to remake countries in our own image (well, try anyway). Helping those who cant do you a favor is a waste of time to these thugs. Sad thing is that helping them would help us as you so well point out DS.
They cant even perceive enlightened self interest, let alone caring and compassion.
It really is sad to have absolutely no respect for the president. Sad, but true.#: Posted by on 12/29 at 10:30 PM -
You hit the nail on the head DD. I didn't want to make too big a deal about part of what motivated me on the header, because I was hoping to motivate others in the spirit of just plain doing the right thing. But part of it is that I'm appalled at the reaction from BushCo and felt it incumbant on me to do something besides whine about it.
Sheesh, you'd think they'd be all over this. Their shtick is to play the hero a'comin to the rescue. Well, here's a chance to have abig fat juicy photo=op of Srubber hadning over some groceries to an emaciated Sri Lankan family clothed in wet rags kissing their feet and crying, and the motherfucker had to be dragged kickng and screaming from 'clearing brush at the ranch' to even make a brief goddamn statement. It's flippin surreal. -
Listen up: I'm a student and don't have any extra money, but I just gave $15. I spend that on a ski pass or and a lot more on hockey gear, so I should be able to give that much at least once a year.
You may want to consider this site when choosing where to donate: http://www.charitywatch.org/hottopics/tsunami_asia.html#: Posted by on 12/29 at 10:43 PM - Seems like a lot of folks are giving up doing or buying something so they can donate the money to the tsunami effort instead. I think it'd be great if Bush gave up even half of the inauguration festivities and send that money over to the stricken region.
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Do we really need to dwell on the anti-Bush schtick right now? I mean, will it really help for him to go run his mouth right now? I don't know the appropriate amount to give, but the relief efforts are just starting and the $30mil will obviously be increased. Hasn't the EU given less, per capita? And there are many more Europeans in the affected areas than Americans.
#: Posted by on 12/29 at 10:59 PM
- Well in comments pretty much anything goes. We don't censor at Pharyngula, at least not unless it's really irksome trolling. I'm personally frustrated, I just can't understand what goes though their minds. But you're right of course, it won't help.
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DS, I totally understand your point. I guess it just aggravates me sometimes that no matter what happens, people will try to drag Bush into it. Some of us really don't even want to think about him all the time.
#: Posted by on 12/29 at 11:08 PM
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To this point, Canada has given about 10x as much per capita. (Sorry to harp on it-- I'm really not a classically anti-American Canuck-- but with our record on foreign aid, it's nice to see us being the generous ones for a change--I believe the U.S. is the only developed country that generally gives a lesser proportion of its GDP for foreign aid than we do.) Anyway, whatever we send over there now, there will have to be a lot more later. Emergency supplies are needed to save lives now, but they're going to have to rebuild those lives later, and that's a taller order.
Enlightened self-interest should come in then, with luck. We're all richer if people are productive enough to live well, trade, invest in a longer-term environmental outlook, etc... For now, I hope it's fellow-feeling and a genuine desire to help that's foremost.#: Posted by Bryson Brown on 12/29 at 11:13 PM - Heh-heh. I have a storm of thought-threads constantly intersecting in my head, and oddly enough, one of them connected up "Bush" with "tsunami" and came out with "I'll bet BushCo is thrilled that something is taking Iraq off the front page for a while."
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As painful as all this is, there are so many opportunities for some kind of good to come out of this. But they need to be seized.
I don't know what the US airwaves sound like, but I know the BBC airwaves have people just sobered, mesmerized by the tragedy.
Of course we gave, both to US Red Cross, and then, when it seemed that wasn't fast enough, again to the ICRC. The amount is our business but people need to give.
There's more needed here than money. The government of Sri Lanka is complaining because the aid effort is disorganized. The airport is congested. This is exactly the kind of management skills that the U.S. military entirely excels at, despite what some people might think of them. After all, who else knows how to set up and provide for basic needs on a huge scale, quickly, under almost any environmental conditions? Who else can effectively keep things organized and peaceable?
It isn't force; it's skill. I have seen Castmembers at DisneyWorld corrale a crowd of a few thousand singlehandedly by command of voice when people were crushing in to a show way too soon. It's leadership.
I know the U.S. military will go anywhere, do anything for this country. They are simply loyal. But they deserve a leadership worthy of them, one which has thought things through, one which can learn.
Fortunately, once a commander in the field has been given a mission, they are pretty much autonomous, and, fortunately, they don't get involvement from higher ups unless things go badly. I'm sure the Navy and the Marine Expeditionary will do a superb job, and they are used to coordinating with NGOs. They have done it in Bosnia and Somalia, and in so many places.
The lesson we can all learn from this is the message of Gould's Wonderful Life, however many technical and paleontological mistakes that book may have had. It is such a positive thing, realizing how wonderful and fragile all life is, including that of our brothers. There are so many things out there that can swat it away. Why do we make things tougher than they need to be?
Maybe, despite the horror of September 11th, we can focus upon how lucky we were from that. Two days after it, people did not know total casualty numbers, talkin' of possibly 15000, 20000. Maybe it's good that September 11th's primacy in recent memory has been erased by a five tons per square meter torrent, caused by the motions of things we pay no attention to but which are as inexorable as the rising sun.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/29 at 11:16 PM -
Y'know, it might help to have some perspective here. One of the oddball things I studied in the days of the US-USSR Cold War were the precise effects, as far as anyone could estimate, of a nuclear exchange involving a couple, several, and many nuclear weapons.
I daresay, as disruptive as this example of human tragedy is, it pales and is insignificant to the human cost had that nuclear contest not been contained. Movies like The Day After tell nothing of such a war's true cost. There are even parallels with the current situation. The real victims would be one, two, possibly three generations of children who would sucuumb to cancer, since rapidly dividing cells are more susceptible than adult cells.
There is no winning such a war, even if successfully limited. The damage sustained from the exchange of even of a couple of these terrors is horrible. But even moreso, even if every single weapon from the USSR was stopped, if US weapons detonated on target in the USSR, Europe would become a comparatively unliveable place, and the radioactive repercussions would reach America.
Although their numbers have been significantly curtailed in the active arsenel, the mothballing process for "weapon pits" provides a technical means of reconstituting it in its full ferocity, "should that prove necessary". What utter nonsense.
At least the Deep Penetrating Weapon project was defeated by Congress this year.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 12/30 at 12:24 AM - Jan, and rightly so. How would you feel if you were a congressMAN running for reelection, and someone brought up that you had a hand in the Deep Penetrating Weapon program?
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I am not a scientist, or a writer. I am a waiter in a deli. I beleive the wool is being pulled over our eyes. I need your help in exposing what I think in manipulation of facts. I am not an expert on archeology, but I wish someone from your organization would examine my theories, thank you. This is a post I wrote from my blog.
Thief in the Temple of Darwin
Attention all bloggers, news junkies, and arm chair archeologist. As of this week there is a raging controversy taking place in Indonesia that epitomized the agenda manipulated scientific community which I am often critical. As this story unfolds it is reminiscent of an Indiana Jones movie, with all the suspense, drama, and array of characters.
It all began this fall with a group of anthropologist announcing to the world that they had discovered new species of man they label Homo floresiensis after the tiny island Flores in which these fossils remain were found. What makes this announcement fascinating is that the fossil finding has thrown a monkey wrench(excuse the pun) into current accepted evolutionary theories.
The 'hobbit' as the media describes the specimen, is believed to be a 30 year old female, approximately a meter high. She had allegedy existed between 13,000 to 18,000 years ago, which contradicts currently accepted evolutionary timelines. A bigger problem is the size of the fossil's estimated brain volume which is about 380cc, which is extremely small in comparison to modern man , and for a creature who has been label as having a high level of intelligence.
As London's Natural History Museum's Chris Stringer pointed out, "Here is a creature with a brain the size of a chimpanzee's, but apparently a tool-maker and hunter, and perhaps descended from the world's first mariners. Its very existence shows how little we know about human evolution. I could never have imagined a creature like this, living as recently as this." In fact, the science journal that made the first announcement titled the story, "Little Lady of Flores Forces Rethink of Human Evolution."
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, not only is the verdict not out, the story has taken a bizarre twist. Professor Teuku Jacob, chief paleoanthropology professor at the state run Gadjah Mada University, recently visited the fossil site and removed the remains without permision. The University of New England and Jakarta's Centre for Archaeology, the institutions that spearheaded and collaborated on the dig claim this is a contract violation that was agreed with the Indonesian government.
Professor Jacob who now control's the fossils believe that the reamains are not a "new species" but a modern human that had suffered from microcephaly, a form of dwarfism that shrinks the brain capacity. He further claims that the fossil's gender is male, not female as is originally claimed.
Some argue if it is even an ancient fossil at all or just a partially petrified remain from recent history. According to the head of the country's National Archeology Institute, "We would call it a fossil if everything has hardened. But we were able to find soft tissue so that we could carry out a DNA test. We couldn't do that if it was already a fossil," For this reason, the examination process itself could change previous notions about the evolutionary timelines and fossil classification.
If the bones are not returned, both the university and Jakarta's Center for Archeology said they would protest Indonesia's Minister for Culture and Tourism until professor Jacob returns all specimens. Current tourism minister Jero Wacik, who was recently appointed to the position has big task in handling this delicate matter. With the possibility of a future museum exhibit for the popular 'hobbit' specimen, this crisis could be crucial to the minister's success in luring back visitors to a country which has been recently experiencing violent political turmoil.
I foresee an even bigger controversy on the horizon. Did Professor Jacob deliberately snatch the fossils out fear that the evidence might challenge data from previous excavations? This evidence might expose possible contradiction in fossil data from past digs in which he organized.
Why would I make such a claim? I was wondering what kind of scientist would disrupt and possibly damage archeological data, so I searched the internet for biographical information on the professor. I discovered an article from the Jakarta Post published in August of 2002. The article which is a short biographical piece, explains that Professor Jacob was the first archeologist to discover stone tools in connection with prehistoric skeletons in area known as Sangiran.
As the article states, "Apart from the finds, his team has also discovered hundreds of ancient stone tools and thousands of animal fossils over the last 40 years of excavations."
The article later states, "Before Jacob began his excavation projects in Sangiran, other researchers had found the fossilized remains of 20 individuals but no stone tools had ever been found."
How was he able to find what others were not?
"What we have found proves that Sangiran is the biggest archeological site ever found in the country," said Jacob
Was funding a factor?
The article further reveals, "The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) in 1996 named Sangiran a world heritage site, essential to the understanding of human evolution."
An article in the 1995 UNESCO nomination ballot points out their decision for giving the Sangiran area a protected status was that over %50 of the worlds fossil record concerning human evolution was found there. If data was maipulated that would be a major bombshell for the scientific communnity.
I can only speculate to what the motives are be behind the professor's recent behavior. One thing is for sure, digging for bones can be a dirty business.
http://mindfences.blogspot.com/
R.S Johnson
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I'm trying not to score political points (which is why I'm not mentioning individuals, merely countries), but Andy's question "Hasn’t the EU given less, per capita?" needs answering, since the answer is an emphatic "no".
To be fair, I suspect the question was inspired by news of the $44 million pledged from EU central funds - but that figure doesn't incorporate numerous independent contributions from individual member states.
And if you factor in Britain ($28.9m), France ($20.4m), Denmark ($15.6m), Finland ($3.4m), the Netherlands ($2.6m) and Ireland ($1.3m), you end up with a total of $116.2 - nearly three-and-a-half times the US contribution, and more than half the total amount pledged to date. - I apologize if anyone was offended by my suggestion that Bush downsize his inauguration festivities and send the savings to tsunami relief. I did not mean it to be a partisan dig. Although I am not a Bush fan, I would suggest the same thing if Kerry had won. Even in the absence of the tsunami disaster, I'd be happy to see a less expensive inauguration. Any U.S. president would have a lot on his plate right now and I'd be happy to see any president skip the pomp and circumstance and just settle down to work instead.
- Folks, you don't have to apologize about anything you say as long as I'm working for you, and I think PZ would feel the same way. Comments are the place to say what you want. We're lucky to have people who are even interested enough to provide comments, we want you guys here saying stuff. We don't expect it to be an echo chamber for the header or a cheering section for each other. You can disagree or agree, grumble, rant, tell us what you think, make typos...This is your comment section, not mine.
- I love your post. It was so well-said I re-posted it on my blog as well. I also want to mention a couple of charities. First off, the Amazon.com donation to the Red Cross goes directly to the Red Cross relief for this disaster. No fees or anything. Its an incredibly easy way to make a donation, and you can donate as little as $5. Next, the Network for Good has a great list of many charities who have funds earmarked for this disaster, including Doctors without Borders. I believe medical organizations such as this will prove incredibly important in the days to come, as they work to halt the spread of disease.
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Well said DS. our sentiments should be echoed throughout the developed world.
#: Posted by Stephen Brophy on 12/30 at 08:24 AM
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err, that was meant to be 'Your sentiments'. Gosh, that little omission changes the whole character of that sentence :(
#: Posted by Stephen Brophy on 12/30 at 08:26 AM
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Andy said "I guess it just aggravates me sometimes that no matter what happens, people will try to drag Bush into it." Yes, that is unfortunately true, but what's more unfortunate is that in this case he's really brought it on himself. He could so easily have put on a suit on the day, or even the day after, and made some kind of statement. It would have taken, what, a half hour of his time? And to get the press together I'm sure would have been no problem, what with him being the president and everything. I think that's what people are saying - that the impression is that he was totally indifferent and now has had to be shamed into reacting, which goes against all the rhetoric of the last couple of years: pre-emptive action, spreading peace and democracy, being partners with other nations etc.
And to note that like Isabel, I would have said the same thing about Kerry or anyone else who was the president and behaved in the same way (and I'll cheapen that sentence by saying that I can't imagine anyone else behaving the same way). -
DS, whaddya mean you don't want to bring politics into it?
You couldn't wait to drag Bush into it.
Your remarks about moderate Muslims are all wet, too.
I don't have any objection to your giving money (or time or prayers or whatever you think is valuable) to the survivors, but don't expect any gratitude for it.
You might ask yourself how much credit the Americans and Norwegians got from the moderate Muslims for their unpublicized and selfless efforts to eradicate guinea worm from the Koran Belt. They almost succeeded, too, except for a few places where they were unable to penetrate.
Answer: World Trade Center.#: Posted by on 12/30 at 12:11 PM - I guess I'm not following Harry. You think that the crew that hit us on 9-11 were moderates? Or that there are no such thing as moderates? Or that somehow if we just ignore them and pay no attention to them, except when we're invading them, that this will somehow prevent another 9-11?
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Isabel, you don't need to apologize. My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Rather, it was just me putting down my what ran through my head at the time. Although I didn't vote for Bush, I get weary with incessant Bush bashing. But if those who are more into politics want to go after him, and he deserves it, I'll just keep my weariness to myself and move on.
#: Posted by on 12/30 at 12:20 PM
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Harry, Most (almost all!) of the WTC attackers were Saudis. Are you suggesting that this rich nation needed our help eradicating guinea worms? Are you suggesting our Saudi 'friends' made their country so it could not be penetrated by those trying to help from America and Norway?
Are you suggesting that the families of those drowned in SE Asia are Saudi's? al Quaeda members? Or are they, like Sadam, 'close enough' to justify US (and your) attack.
Tim McVey was a 'Christian', does that make all Christians suspect of being members of white hate groups who will blow up government buildings?#: Posted by on 12/30 at 12:32 PM -
Bush was recently on the news, making a statement from his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The news station played a single half-sentence from Bush, delivered in his "I am reading this off a sheet someone just handed me" voice, and then cut him off to continue with other footage and reporting. As if they knew that their audience knew what Bush was saying was calculated political puffery, and not very entertaining besides.
On the subject of people trying to bring Bush into everything, in this case Bush is bringing himself into it. And that makes him fair game for comment by every observer. -
I'm saying two things:
1. Yes, Muslims needed the help of westerners to eradicate guinea worm, which is, technically, simple, because they were too indifferent or brutal or something to do it for themselves.
2. If we were ever to get any credit from moderate Muslims, that was the event. No westerner got any benefits from eradicating guinea worm, which, if the violence of some Muslim countries had not prevented it, would have become the first instance in history of the eradication of a human parasite -- as significant, in the public health sense, as the eradication of smallpox. Heck, hardly any westerners had ever heard of guinea worm.
Guinea worm is at least as unpleasant and deadly as a tsunami, but while tsunami bother a few thousand Muslims once every 300 years, guinea worm afflicted 2 million Pakistanis/year every year, until the Americans/Norwegians took it in hand, not to mention additional tens of millions in Iran, India, North Africa -- whereever there was water, warmth, indifference and lousy sanitation.
What I'm saying is that there turned out to be no difference between the 'moderates' and the Saudis who actually flew the planes. How much love have the Pakistanis been giving you lately, DS?#: Posted by on 12/30 at 01:55 PM -
Yeah I know what they are, and you're right, they're hideous SOB's. The life cycle of a guinea worm isn't pretty. I'm just not getting how that relates to this. The Paks have given us far more cooperation than we ever would've had any right to expect. Probably more cooperation from Mushureef than all the other major Muslim nations put together. Considering the potential that Pakistan has, should they decide to throw in with the radicals, we're pretty damn lucky imo.
But this isn't about expecting something in return for me personally, this is about showing something upfront. I'm showing them, I'm not with those guys in DC. I'm not with Bush. He's not my guy.
If I don't get anyhing back, then no big deal.
As a nation thogh this is incomprehensible to me. It's not like we haven't blown, you know, a billion here and a billion there lately on some rather ill-conceived plans in the Muslim world.
It sure can't hurt our reputation to help. There is no risk it will damage our credibility. We'd just be out the money, and that money seems to come and go alot in that area lately with nothing to show for it all, except grisly horror anyway.
But if my government isn't going to take action, I can.
On another tact, honestly Harry, it wouldn't have been that big a deal for Bush to cut his godamn vacation two days short, fly to the area in luxury on his own private jumbo-jet, and look worried, if there was a chance it might do us some good in that community in the long run, now would it? I mean if he can order 100,000 men and women to leave their families for a year or two and play sandbags for insurgents on the off chance that it will do some long term good, is it really asking for too much on his part to have tried that?
I don't freakin think so. That's what makes me rather appalled. He didn't even try Harry. Yet he's claiming at every press conference he's doing everything in his power, burning the midnight oil boy howdy, to keep America safe! Except he's not willing to take a 24 hour luxury road trip, cuz, you know, he's busy and all. He's sending men and women off to their deaths in Iraq, on the off chance that it might all somehow work out, to keep America safe, and he can't take a chance on a godamn 24 hour plane trip because it's not worth it? He can't send somebody, like Cheney or Rice or what? A plane trip Harry. A hundred million bucks, BAM! On day one. No risk at all. A PR bonanza and plus it's the right thing to do both humanely, you know 'values wise' and because that region has been cooperating out the ying-yang, you know, trwat coooperation better than non cooperation. It's just stunning to me that not only are they cruel thoughtless bastards, they're not even good liars or PR hacks. he didn't come out of hiding until Clinton was on th air and some aids got kinda nervous. he got smoked out of his retreat 'clearing burch on the ranch' by Clinton. The guys is just not there man. -
Harry, what are you arguing? That because of 9/11 the west should not aid the people of southeast asia in this incredible disaster? Please say that isn't what you're saying.
Darksyde, thank you for your post. As far as Bush goes, I don't feel surprised, nor am I convinced that any of us or our leaders are doing enough- what could possibly be enough? My plan is to figure out what I can give and give it, and then try not to see too many of the pictures or read too many of the statistics. The scale of this is just too big, I honestly don't want to be confronted with it. -
Look, I bet we can have a contest right here in this comment section where everyday people can see the horrible opportunity we missed to not just help them, but to help ourselves...
Let's state why, if you were Bush, you would want to do this.
1. It's the right thing to do. It saves lives. This is a huge disaster and may end up being the single costliest natural event in human history
2. Those nations are moderates who have helped us a lot, we owe them and it would make a good example for everyone else.
3. It gets Iraq out of the headlines
4. It's zero risk PR
5. Bush likes looking important and heroic
6. We're talking 100 million and a plane trip. Rummy did a plane trip and we almost certainly spent over 100 million the day he went to Iraq to try and do some damage control for a single smart ass quip that got bad press.
7. BushCo didn't have anything else planned this week. He's on godamn vacation No one is sick, he's not having open heart surgery or anything
8. It fits in with BushCo's fancy claims that we're all about bringing stability to the Muslim world.
9. It allows us to send in military and NGO aid, which means we can place all kinds of agents and survelience in an extremely important part of the world in our WoT
10. There's going to be some serious building contracts in that area for the next few years
11. It makes BushCo look like they're serious about doing 'hard work' even if they're not, and this is a lay-up
That's all BushCo Prime Stuff ... Anything else?
So why the FUCK didn't they do anything? The only thing I can think of? They just didn't think, lterally. At all. They literally did not think of it. Because it's so obvious the advantages of doing something, that had they thought about it for 10 minutes, they would have been in there charging away.
WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE CLOWNS DOING IN CHARGE? This is stunning to me that these guys, who we are entrusting with our lives, whose whole shtick is "We go the extra mile to keep you safe and we're all about values", did not read this correctly until an Aid saw Bill Clinton giving an interview on Tuesday morning and thought "Hey, wait a minute...{wheels turning} maybe there's something going on here..."
I keep thinking I'm getting to the point where the incomptence can no longer surprise me, and then they always manage to prove me wrong. - Simon Winchester argued convincingly in his book on Krakatoa that the eruption, and the subsequent Dutch colonial reaction to it, was one of the factors that led to the rise of militant islam.
- Yeah Cov. It's like a cross between that with the same methodology they showed on Kerik. They literally don't seem to think things through, at all. I mean it's weird man. Even some of the fundie bloggers are getting kinda of anxious waiting for the talking point ... and the WH knows they blew this at this point. They're painfully aware now of how bad they screwed up
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Well said, DarkSyde. I agree that turning this into fodder for "Bush bashing" would be inappropriate, and I think you dealt with that aspect of it quite well.
I don't think that the political facet of giving aid to this countries should be tip-toed around. If this is a democracy, we have the right, if not the responsibility, to make known to Bush and everyone else around him what we wish to do to help in this situation. They are our tax dollars, after all. When I first heard how much we pledged on the radio, I swear I thought they said "billion" not "million." I certainly agree that we could do much better than that. As you mentioned, I can't figure out why they didn't at least try to get some good PR out of it.
Jamie#: Posted by on 12/30 at 04:24 PM - My comment (#20) is now hopelessly out of date, as Britain alone has since increased its official contribution (i.e. not including charitable donations) to the equivalent of $95.7 million. The equivalent US contribution per capita would be approximately $480 million.
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I agree Jaime. It's rare that you get in this life a chance to do something which makes so much sense on so many levels and such low downside. Massive help right off the bat ... It makes moral, political, emotional, and both strategic and tactical military sense. It would be 100% popular by everyone in the country and the world. Nobody would even think about criticizing it. It is fantasticlly attractive at the local, regional, and international level, on a specific set of cultures already identified as critical to the safety and welfare of our future in the West. {shrug}. It's a no brainer. There is zero downside. You don't get too many situations like this handed to you. A situation where it's morally, politically, and militarily, completely, a no brainer. Those just don't come along everyday.
I think they know they missed their best shot already. And I think they could easily still save it. But this is where BushCo really pulls out the extra special freakiness and pretends they planned it this way the whole time. So they're not going to make much a fuss about it, because they'd be admitting they aren't perfect.
I'm giong to get off on a little bashing here in comments ... Man I'm telling you, I have never in my entire life experienced a WH that was this, fucking, geeked out about appearing perfect. You can almost see it when they go into this mode. All the sudden all information flow slows down, you don't see them on TV. I dunno know if they're off arguing somewhere, or they figure they'll just basically hide and hope something happens to take people's minds of it. I mean for all I know Bush could be off on a drinking/snorting binge or pulling some kind of latent nervous breakdown act, and everyone around him is flipped out of their gourds trying to cover for him when it happens. It almost has that kind of a freaky feel to it sometimes. The WH just freezes up. - BTW: Death Count Now Could Reach The Half-million Mark. Appreantly some entire medium sized cities are lost. No survirors seen on ariel recon in three major towns on Indonesian shore, the populations add up to over 400k.
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Guess I will throw a little more gasoline on the fire. I am sure Shrub had access to recon on the damage and destruction long before we did. Satellite, recon planes and other sources were putting together the growing magnitude, hours before we got those rising figures.
When I first hear the $15 million number on the radio, I thought..."Say What?" This is the cost of building ONE moderate sized high school. You've got to be kidding.
So, even with the advantage of advance information Shrubco cant get ahead of almost everyone else on the planet on this issue. Blind, stupid, cheap, lazy, incompetent, devious, embarrasing, morons. Your Republican Party at work. Let us not forget, nobody else in the Republican Party is trying to step up to the plate either ... and they have a lame duck President to manuever for advantage against. What? Do they expect Cheney to take over the throne in 4 years? The sensible Republicans have abdicated so why dont they switch parties and throw the Senate to the Democrats .... of course that too would require a spine.#: Posted by on 12/30 at 10:03 PM -
Well, at least SE Asia will get a good view of our strange quasimonarchy in action. George is <a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041231/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/tsunami_us">sending Powell, but is making sure that Jeb is along as his handler. Wouldn't want Colin making nicely moderate statements, after all.
#: Posted by on 12/30 at 10:59 PM
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Oops. Forgot to close my tag. Sorry 'bout that.
#: Posted by on 12/30 at 11:00 PM
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Covington's right. And so is DarkSyde.
This tragedy presents a challenge to the west, and specifically to the U.S., to live up to our ideals. The failure to adequately deal with a similar tragedy may have sparked the fires of radical Islam -- is it possible that a great response today could quench that spark?
And even if the chance is only slight, is there any doubt that a lousy response would fan the fires?
Can we act as Good Samaritans to the world? How many sheckels? How big an inn? Those are the only serious questions we should be asking at the moment.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 07:31 AM -
Great post DS. Especially your followup where you list the reasons that doing more is even in Bush's cynical self interest, if nothing else. Truly mind boggling.
One question though, where are people getting all these 200,00-500,000 death toll numbers? I'm still seeing 124,000 dead on the BBC. Are these extrapolations taking into account starvation and disease in the coming weeks? Or are they still just referring to the immediate tsunami death toll?#: Posted by on 12/31 at 10:52 AM -
ack. I have no idea what I did to cause that. Sorry.
#: Posted by on 12/31 at 10:54 AM
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Thanks for the response DS. Although given the answer, 'thank you' seems to not be quite the right sentiment.
Entire cities? Something about that sounds more horrifying than any number can.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 01:21 PM -
Despite your disclaimer in the initial post, DS, it's getting harder and harder to believe you didn't take this as a Christmas present for a chance to slam Bush.
Fair enough. We know where you're coming from.
I wonder, though, whether -- and despite your later comment about his upping the response -- whether anything he might have done would have gotten a positive post out of you a few days ago.
A few factual/historical notes:
1. South Asia has experienced disastrous losses of life at least as big as this one, and not so long ago.
Cyclones pushing water up the Bay of Bengal drowned people 300K at a time (or worse) several times, until in the 1970s a simple technical fix was tried (building artificial hills as refuges on the Bangladesh flood plain).
2. There is a cyclone warning system in place in the Indian Ocean. It was, for the most part, not manned over the weekend. Presumably because this is not cyclone season.
I talked with some American geologists the day after, and Gerard Fryer of the U. of Hawaii told me that they understood "within minutes" that there was danger of a great tsunami.
(Quoting from memory, my notes are at the office and I'm at home today): "It was at least 8.5. Any earthquake that large has to be near the surface, and it has to create a tsunami."
The head of the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center tried to call anyone he could think of, but he had no emergency contact lists, and, for the most part, when he did, no one answered the phone.
The Australian seismic service picked up the quake but issued no notices. It turned out NW Australia was not affected, but they could not have been sure.
Lots of people asleep at the switch, it looks like.
3. Massive American rescue efforts do not, historically, leave huge reservoirs of good will for us, though we get some. The end result, though, tends to be long-term hatred of us, or, at best, mixed feelings.
Think of Russia in the '20s, Germany in the late '40s.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 03:30 PM -
Harry,
though it may be hard for many in the current incarnation of the Republican party to understand, not everyone has the knee jerk tendency to view world events as, intrinsically, opportunities to score political points.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 04:41 PM - Harry I feel my posts from this monring and the update recognizing Bush's response this afternoon speaks to my viewpoint on the matter. I'm biased against Bush, but not about this. And if they (The WH) continue to adjust as they have been, I won't have an ill word to say about the WH's reaction.
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Not being as magnanimous as DS, it is my perception that Shrub is not adjusting to the facts on the ground, but to the opinion polls. Shrub's administration is built partly on an anti-internationalist bent which smells a bit of racism. (Check out the 'modern' John Birch Society to see what this looks like). UN bashing is at the top of the list. I find Bush aligning a bit too much, a bit too often, with these bastards to be comfortable.
Their opportunity to do the right thing without it being a response to public pressure has passed, but the need and obligation still exist and the US needs to roll up its sleeves and commit resources to ameliorate this emergency. The coming health crisis in southern Asia in the wake of this disaster will be gigantic if quick, substantive action is not taken.
bin Laden already has his next round of fodder to rile up his base and recruit anew, but we still have an opportunity to minimize that with decisive action.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 07:21 PM - Yeah dissing the UN isn't going to get us anywehere. We need the UN in there. Pretty soon this is going to go from wandering stunned survivors in shock, to desperate, pissed off, starving mobs with guns hijacking any food they can get their hands on. We're going to need some peacekeepers.
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On a lighter note; while Dark Side of the Moon is great work by Pink Floyd, I think that The Wall has held up better over time. Something my tender young ears failed to grasp when it was released.
DS, Thanks for the great work standing in as wagonmaster over the holidays.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 08:36 PM -
jbarker, don't tell me, tell DS.
I'm the one who says we WILL NOT get any props out of helping.
If Desert Donkey thinks our not helping will be a recruiting tool for bin Laden, he just hasn't studied how people think.
However much they hate us now (a lot), they will hate us more for exposing them as losers who had to take favors from the Great Satan. (That's how the Iranians reacted, if you want a specific example.)
My view -- one I know is shared by nobody else -- is that we ought to completely ignore Muslim suffering, in Darfur or anywhere else. Let them see how well they get along without us.
There'd be plenty of other places to pass out goodies and make ourselves feel noble.
My opinion is formed, in part, by acquaintance with some Aceh Christians who fled to my county to avoid being murdered by those peaceful Muslims.
Not the most important aspect of the matter, I admit, but at least some Muslims are our enemies. It's gonna be important to understand who's who.#: Posted by on 12/31 at 09:41 PM -
I’m the one who says we WILL NOT get any props out of helping.
[some snipping]
My opinion is formed, in part, by acquaintance with some Aceh Christians who fled to my county to avoid being murdered by those peaceful Muslims.
Not the most important aspect of the matter, I admit, but at least some Muslims are our enemies. It’s gonna be important to understand who’s who.
In part it is this kind of labeling I find singularly unhelpful. I also find this utilitarian kind of thinking with respect to foreign policy and governmental action most annoying. We should give and support these people because it is the right thing to do. Mr Bush and company, as I've mentioned here elsewhere, might be thinking "Hey, we'd better get involved in this so we can control it" or "Hey, if we don't contribute we're going to be irrelevant and then where will our empire be". Frankly, I don't give a flying ____ for how they think or why as long as they do contribute substantially. They have long demonstrated to me their thinking is flawed.
Whether BushCo like it or not, whether neocons like it or not, this disaster shows the UN is indeed essential, and the United States simply cannot trump them by declaring a "coalition of the giving" or whatever.
I also think BushCo are worried because this unfolding tragedy may well eclipse the Iraqi elections in the news. They have lost the substantial benefits of Iraqi elections. All they have left is its PR value. That can be marginalized if everyone is looking elsewhere.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/01 at 02:24 AM -
When someone is trying to kill you, utilitarianism is a virtue.
#: Posted by on 01/01 at 12:17 PM
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When someone is trying to kill you, utilitarianism is a virtue.
I contend not, for all you are saying is that the ends justify the means. The problem with that is that any behavior can be justified by it. The problem with self-defense as a rationale is that it in itself does not prescribe limits to what might be done in its cause. Such limits need be imposed from other values other virtues.
Thus, citing "self-defense" is a null citation, carrying few constraints.
I am not arguing here that Talmud and Torah are superior in any way, merely that they have been well thought out. In fact they can be and are severely abused to justify almost anything, using standard means of casuistry.
In any case, the strictures upon self-defense in Talmudic thought are more severe than people imagine, at least if properly done. One can kill your attacker if they are attacking you directly. One can't destroy a tree in the process. One cannot kill a third person if that is a price or part of a price for you yourself being saved. One cannot commit a sexually immoral act to save yourself.
While I clearly admire much in Judaic thought, there are some aspects of Buddhism which are superior, their ideals arguing one should not kill even in self-defense. In an interview a famous Thai Buddhist teacher was asked if he would kill if someone was going to kill the last Buddhist in existence. The reply clearly trumps Judaism, for he said (paraphrase) that if there is any truth in Buddhism it must necessarily be rediscovered by future generations. While that of course comes from a religion having no inherently revealed texts, it is nevertheless remarkable.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/01 at 12:58 PM -
Harry Eagar,
I've taken the trouble to check the facts and figures you posted regarding guinea worm (http://www.astdhpphe.org/infect/guinea.html), and guess what - it turns out your statements were false.
The following are UNICEF's figures (from http://www.childinfo.org/eddb/gw/countdata/pakistan.htm):
Pakistan:
Guinea worm cases reported 1990 - 160
Guinea worm cases reprted 2000 - 0
The country has reported no cases of guinea worm since October 1993, down from 160 cases in 1990. Pakistan was officially certified free of guinea worm in January 1997.
Worlwide there were approx. 130,000 cases in total last year.
Perhaps you were thinking of something else, though I can't imagine what.
As far as Darfur is concerned, your views are not only callous, but again ignorant. The US is helping in Darfur? Please, don't take us all for fools. The US government helped create the very same humanitarian disaster that it is now ostensibly attempting to bring a halt to. The SPLA has been armed and trained by the US government for years now, in an attempt to destabilise the Sudanese government (- Dynacorp is there right now with it's 'armed civillian contractors'). Why? Yup, got it in one - oil. The Sudanese found oil, and were refusing to play ball with the US government, so the US government did what they seem to be best at. Look it up if you have any doubts - the facts speak for themselves.
Your statements about Muslims show so much ignorance they hardly need a response. At the moment the US's biggest enemy is its own government.#: Posted by on 01/01 at 09:41 PM -
[Correction - the figure of 130,000 was for the year 1995.]
#: Posted by on 01/01 at 09:47 PM
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[Another correction, this time spelling: 'Dynacorp' should read 'DynCorp'.]
#: Posted by on 01/02 at 03:24 AM
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You didn't go back far enough, genejob. Try visiting those rightwing nuts at the Carter Center (which was admirably involved in saving all those people).
A remarkably moving, though fictional, account of how it was done is 'Cause Celeb' by Helen Fielding. Yes, the 'Bridget Jones' writer.
Jan, what do your goat-walloping sages say about me, A, killing B to save (let us postulate, innocent) C?
That's what I'm talking about.#: Posted by on 01/02 at 02:04 PM -
Harry, killing in self-defense is only wise if you know for sure that someone is about to attack you. To be really safe from anyone attacking me, I could kill everyone in the world -- I'd be safe from other humans, at least! (In theory! In practice, long before I got through with the slaughter, people who weren't originally my enemies would stop me, turning a potential threat to me into a real one, and creating enemies where there weren't any before.) Proposing that the US should kill all Muslims, or let them die for want of aid, because they might possibly be our enemies isn't any more sensible.
#: Posted by on 01/02 at 02:22 PM
- The problem isn't Islam anyway. It's absolutist ideology in general, religious fundamentalist nationalism more specifically, and in the narrow case of Al Qeada/Islamic Terrorism, Wahabbism and related extremist Militant philosophies.
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Jan, what do your goat-walloping sages say about me, A, killing B to save (let us postulate, innocent) C?
That’s what I’m talking about.
There is a ruling regarding a rodef or pursuer of an innocent other. It justifies intervention, with significant qualifications.
First, the obligation to defend the innocent does not apply if one's own life is thereby put in danger. This means it cannot be used to justify it. You may try to justify it using some other argument or law, but not this one.
Second, this rule may only be invoked in the case of imminent danger to life of the innocent other. It does not apply when merely property is in danger.
Third, the defender of the innocent other may only stop the attacker if bystanders or others are not harmed or killed. Moreover, non-fatal means of subduing the attacker are always prefered to fatal means. The Talmudic expression is How do you know that your blood is redder than the blood of your fellow?
For your information, goats are not 'walloped' but, rather, according to the Text, "sent to Azazel". Azazel is, according to the best tradition another angel working for the Almighty who really is the one responsible for many of the things poor, poor Satan (Sah-tahn, in Hebrew) gets blamed for.
Of course, animal sacrifice is no longer permitted, let alone 'wallops' of animals. Your characterization, I think I am justified to say, demonstrates a good deal of ignorance about Judaism. I believe I am being understanding.
There exist total Jewish crackpots who seek things like the reestablishment of the priesthood and the temple in Jerusalem, but they are aberrations by almost any standard. Judaism is a rational religion, if there be such a beast.
Finally, I think this subthread began in a discussion of ethics and values, and your comeback left out a good deal of my reply. While you said something about Judaism, for which my response has just been given, I noticed you said nothing about the Buddhist view. That's because you can't.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/02 at 04:07 PM -
Vasha, I'm pretty sure the Talmud was not written with Islam specificially in mind. My question was general, as I tried to show by using algebraic notation.
Once we answer the general question, we could go forward to see how, if at all, it applies to the relationship of Islam to infidels.
DS, it's true but it isn't too helpful to say the problem is absolutist ideology in general. Generic absolute ideologues are not flying planes into the World Trade Center.
But, specifically to Islam, the distinction between Islam and Islamicism does not impress me very much. I think of Islam as being like granulated laundry detergent: 3% active ingredients (the suicide murderers) and 97% inactive (the mass of Muslims).
No doubt in my mind that if 'moderate Muslims' actually existed, they would turn over the immoderate ones and all this trouble would be over in 48 hours.#: Posted by on 01/02 at 04:08 PM -
Mr Eagar said in part:
1. South Asia has experienced disastrous losses of life at least as big as this one, and not so long ago.
Well, then, this is a happy aspect of this tragedy, for it means that humanity as a group is more feeling than it used to be. And apparently governments can indeed be compelled to respond to be humane and humaniarian, whether such response is consistent with their other political rhetoric or not.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/02 at 04:14 PM -
Vasha, I’m pretty sure the Talmud was not written with Islam specificially in mind.
First, Mr Eagar, your posts show you know absolutely nothing at all about Talmud. Second, if you grant that Islam as a movement requires people to make it be, then Talmud most assuredly was written with them in mind. As I wrote How do you know that your blood is redder than the blood of your fellow?#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/02 at 04:17 PM - Harry religoin is all hooey to me regardless if the magic invisible sky wizard at the center of adulation is Allah or YVWH. bUt folks who practice Islam come in every shape and size just like folks who practice Christianity. IOW, you have fanatics and moderates. Violent and peaceful. Liberals and conservatives.
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Harry Eagar,
To begin with, I'm still looking for your figure of "2 million/year each year" cases of guinea worm in Pakistan alone. The largest figure I've found at the Carter Center's site was 3.2 million worldwide, back when the program began.
However, I'm considerably more concerned by your views on Muslims. 3% of Muslims are suicide bombers? If there are approximately one billion Muslims in the world, that would make 30,000,000 - a much greater exaggeration than your guinea worm claims. And the remainder are supposed to be 'sleepers'? Somehow that just doesn't ring true.
I think I should burst your little bubble right now. Are you sitting down? Here goes - not only am I a moderate Muslim, but Islam itself is a moderate ideology. See, we do exist!
I imagine it can't be easy to have one's belief system shattered, so before you go into denial, let me follow up in a similar vein to what Jan was saying. The following is not intended to be preaching, though some may interpret it that way, it is only to inform and to dispel some of the common myths about Islam.
I see the word infidel bandied around by people such as yourself quite frequently these days, but rarely correctly. For example, someone who is Jewish (such as, presumably, Jan) or Christian is not an infidel, but of the 'Ehl-e-Kitab', which is 'People of the Book'. The Qur'an states that there are Chrstians and Jews, amongst others, who will also have their reward. Similarly, anyone who professes a monotheistic belief is not an infidel.
If that isn't moderate, what is?
As for your 48 hours claim - man, are you out of touch! It's like saying if the law-abiding citizens in the USA were to turn over the murderers, there'd be no more murders in the USA! Can you not see the numerous fallacies inherent within that statement?
I'll tell you what, though. If the USA stopped backing Israel, politically and financially, as it invariably does regardless of Israel's illegal occupation, continuing atrocities and flagrant disregard of international laws and countless UN resolutions, there'd be a lot less anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world, don't you think?#: Posted by on 01/02 at 08:39 PM -
I'll tell you what, though. If the USA stopped backing Israel, politically and financially, as it invariably does regardless of Israel's illegal occupation, continuing atrocities and flagrant disregard of international laws and countless UN resolutions, there'd be a lot less anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world, don't you think?
No single action on the part of the United States would be more positive for the reduction of terrorism or bringing of peace to that explosive region of the world, apart perhaps from self-imposed reduction of use of petroleum products notably gasoline. Given, of course, that the people of the Untied States lack the self-discipline to do so, despite their Christian upbringing, dropping support for Israel is an important step.
I have said and written this publicly before.
The United States shouldn't do it callously, simply announce it, then reduce the support linearly over a period of ten years.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/02 at 08:50 PM -
That's the key point, isn't it, genejob, what is the ratio of active proselytes:mere supporters (the mass sea the guerrrilla fish swim in, per Mao)?
It may not be the same as the ingredients in laundry detergent. You'd have to tell me.
As a westerner, I would have thought that suicide bombers would be a wasting asset, too, but evidently not in the Koran Belt.
Anyhow, moderate Muslims, if any, are letting bad guys hijack their religion. Time for you guys to get a move on.#: Posted by on 01/03 at 01:54 PM -
Technology Review has a blog which is some nutcase environmental types are linking the tsunami to global warming. I can't imagine any better way to arm people who think global warming is made up. However, the same blog badly mischaracterized Dawkins' position.
The point of the blog as near as I can make out was to discredit the idea of a link. I don't know where it's going after that. Apparently, Greenpeace is denying they said the things a newspaper said they said about this.
Wanna see uncomplicated science get sidetracked, and the public's collective opinion of scientists get cut down a notch again?
Fooey!#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/07 at 11:15 AM -
Technology Review has a blog which is some nutcase environmental types are linking the tsunami to global warming.
That's not exactly right. The blog links to a poorly written short news item from a Chinese wire service (fairly redundant), that mischaracterization of Dawkins' remarks, and a piece by noted Crichtonoid liar Dennis Avery.
I wouldn't completely dismiss a climate-tsunami link, though not in the direction the blog linked above is correctly debunking. It's been turning out that where they existed last month, intact and healthy coral reefs and mangrove forests apparently mitigated the worst effects of the tsunami. Both biotic communities are threatened by climate change (though there are other more immediate threats to both as well.) Obviosuly, tsunamis are not climatic events, but climate may serve to remove or weaken the natural buffers to tsunami damage.#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 01/07 at 01:40 PM -
Harry Eagar:
Anyhow, moderate Muslims, if any, are letting bad guys hijack their religion. Time for you guys to get a move on.
Quite amusing, watching you sidle round to a point where you can acknowledge the existence of moderate Muslims without seeming to do so. But to answer your point, yes, it's quite a task considering the types of mindsets we're dealing with - and I don't just mean the terrorists. It's not easy to talk to someone when they don't acknowledge your existence, and the countless scaremongerers don't help either. I detect brief glimmers of intellect in parts of your posts - I suggest you don't waste it by being ignorant.
If you'd like more evidence than just my word, check out IslamiCity.com - they're a pretty down to earth type and from what I've seen are representative of the majority view amongst Muslims - some of their articles are quite relevant and informative.
If you'd like to see the other side's propoganda machine, and what's being done in the Middle East to counter the Sirens' Call that Bush et al. have created to aid bin Laden's recruitment officers, then go to Link TV's MOSAIC and click on 'Watch Episode' for an English translation of a round up of news from that region of the world. I'll warn you now though, don't be surprised when you fail to hear a call to kill all infidels every other sentence.#: Posted by on 01/07 at 02:10 PM -
That’s not exactly right. The blog links to a poorly written short news item from a Chinese wire service (fairly redundant), that mischaracterization of Dawkins’ remarks, and a piece by noted Crichtonoid liar Dennis Avery.
Sorry for the mischaracterization. I was and am moving fast. Thought it better to mention it than leave it out 'til I was certain, 'cause it then wouldn't have been included at all.
My concern is if a "Tsunami and Global Warming Linked" headline gets out into the public media without challenge, all I know is it's bad for science and scientists.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/07 at 02:50 PM -
Here is a piece in today's Salon (ad viewing required, sorry) that details the right-wing origins of the "Enviros link Climate Change, Tsunami" hoax.
#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 01/07 at 03:20 PM
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I was inclined to let it lie, Genejob, but this afternoon on NPR I heard a commentary by a Muslim woman trying to delude us infidels (yeah, I know, you make a distinction between 'people of the book' and plain pagans, but it's a distinction without a difference; and besides, I'm an atheist and so marked for destruction anyhow) into thinking that 'jihad' means only 'spiritual struggle' and 'godly behavior' and that it got its pejorative meaning (to us infidels) only recently.
Unfortunately for her, I know more history than that.
Another example of Muslims pretending they are not what they are.
I give you credit for trying, but your argument amounts to a new version of the 'good German' argument. I don't buy it for Germans and I don't buy it for Muslims.
At the very least, real 'moderates' would stop blaming their behavior on the Joos. You did that.
There may be a genuine Muslim moderate individual here and there, but there is, so obviously, no moderate Muslim political movement, anywhere.#: Posted by on 01/07 at 09:06 PM -
There's a pretty interesting interview about the fight against Islamic extremism from one person's vantage at FT today. Alas, it may be another "registration required" link, but let's try. My preliminary tests say not.
Oh, a warning: It'll make you hungry. It's some lunch!#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/07 at 10:31 PM -
Some Muslims do cite a hadith saying that the greater jihad is the spiritual one at home. I don't think I've ever heard any Muslim denying that there is a military Jihad, but that woman is entitled to her opinion, wrong as it may be. The fact that you choose to take her statements as an attempt 'to delude', as opposed to simply mistaken, says a lot about your own character.
The word 'jihad' actually means 'struggle', not 'holy war' as it is so often mistranslated in the West. It is a different concept to war, which in arabic is 'harb', and if one looks to the texts then Jihad only applies in certain circumstances, but never to instigate aggression. Furthermore, there are strict rules governing behaviour during jihad.
That's why the terrorists have such little support in the Muslim world. They have to stretch their interpretations too far to justify their means for most Muslims to accept it as Jihad, and their degree of ignorance and their literalist mindset often matches that of the ones attacking Islam.
I'm reassessing my earlier appraisal - do you not realise that a 'distinction without a difference' is an oxymoron? Of course there's a difference - for example, I can marry a Christian or Jewish lady, based on the premise that her beliefs and lifestyle are sufficiently compatible with my own. The prophet Muhammad had both Christian and Jewish wives.
Atheists are marked for destruction? Somehow I don't see Islam becoming the second largest and the most practiced religion in the world by killing anyone who doesn't immediately convert! Another great myth propogated by the Orientalists is that Islam was spread by the sword. I'd suggest that you begin obtaining information from reputable Muslim sources, not anti-Muslim. You never know, you might actually learn something. And as far as moderate muslim political groups go, I think you've been living in a cupboard all your life. Have you not looked at the numerous links I've provided? The two most prominent ones in the UK are The Muslim Council of Britain, and The Muslim Association of Britain. In the USA there is the Muslim American Society.
Another thing - not all Zionists are 'Joos' (as you so eloquently put it), and not all 'Joos' are Zionists. But I suppose to you that's just a distinction without a difference.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 03:30 AM -
Jan, that's an interesting article, and highlights some of the problems with the so-called 'war on terror'. Other than having my mouth watering whilst attempting to read, my main contention was that the reporter neglected to mention that the UK too has been holding Muslim suspects without trial, for the past three years or so now, albeit on a smaller scale. After the recent scandal and subsequent resignation of our previous Home Secretary, the Law Lords have ruled that the men are being imprisoned unlawfully. Despite this, the British Government continues to defy the law by refusing to release the men or try them.
Another point regarding maintaining democratic values - when the Algerians held their first elections since 1948 a decade or so ago, the Muslim party won a land-slide victory in the first round, only to have it immediately annulled by the French-backed army. The country was thrown into civil war, and has only recently begun to recover. Need I mention that there's oil in Algeria?
So much for freedom and democracy.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 04:27 AM -
Chris and Jan,
I can see the headlines on competing checkout line rags. 'Falwell claims God sent Tsunami to wipe out brothels' and 'Earth First has proof Global Warming created destruction'. At which point the semi-intelligent public will dismiss the subject and we will hear background noise about how there is no point to trying to save the environment since Mother Nature will destroy it anyway, or because God's will shall prevail.
Meanwhile young asian girls will continue to be sold into slavery and salmon will continue to needlessly disappear.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 08:19 AM -
And it'll be the same people writing both headlines, DD.
#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 01/08 at 10:29 AM
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DD:
... and salmon will continue to needlessly disappear.
By the way, on the subject of food, what's with the "farm-raised salmon" I'm seeing in stores? How do you raise a salmon in a pen? Aren't they supposed to be aggressive and free swimming? Do you know?
The other thing about salmon in our stores is the adjective "colorized". Hmmmm.#: Posted by Jan Theodore Galkowski on 01/08 at 11:03 AM -
Jan, here's a (not unbiased) answer to your salmon questions. (Seth's a friend of mine, though, and I trust his biases are tempered with factchecking.)
#: Posted by Chris Clarke on 01/08 at 12:45 PM
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Sigh. Genejob, maybe you haven't heard other Muslims claim that jihad is merely a spiritual struggle for self-mastery, but it is common coin among 'good Muslims,' not that they do any more about correcting or suppressing the murderous Muslims than the 'good Germans' did about the militant nationalists.
I use 'delude' advisedly. There is, I believe, a statement somewhere in the welter of Muslim sacred writings/traditions that it is either OK or praiseworthy to lie to the infidels.
Certainly, that is the practice. I've had an imam assure me that Islam does not permit slavery. He went away when I asked him who, then, were the Janissaries of the Sultan/Caliph and whether the Caliph was a Muslim?
You can stop attributing to me statements until I make them. I'll defend the ones I make. Nowhere did I say that Islam was spread mostly or entirely by the sword, although that was one method.
You're the one who has revised your initial remarks on guinea worm upward by more than four orders of magnitude. I'm standing pat on mine.
'Distinction without a difference' is not an oxymoron.
I'll say it again: i
