PZ Myers. 2005 Mar 28. We're like Huns that way. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/were_like_huns_that_way/>. Accessed 2008 Dec 01.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Monday, March 28, 2005
We're like Huns that way
The words of a pastor in Dover, PA, in response to all them biologists wanting to teach biology:
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture," he said, adding that the school board's declaration is just a first step.
- the next steps, apparently, will be bolder and bolder until prayer times are back in the classroom. then the dimwitted, uneducated segment of the society can finakky live in peace.
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"Evolution" mentioned in the article two times, one of the times being the memetically reinforcing quote: "Evolution is just a theory and there are other theories"
"Darwin" or "Darwinism" mentioned nine times, including the title.
"Intelligent design" and "creationism" tied at two apiece.
Jokes about the pastor's poorly choosen words aside, the article will have exactly the effect they want: Evolution = queer little cult of personality.
Sane citizens of Dover: whenever interviewed by the media on this subject, make sure every soundbite you utter has "Dembskiism" in it.#: Posted by on 03/28 at 04:06 PM -
Dang, memo. Tell us how you really feel. Generalize much?
#: Posted by on 03/28 at 04:13 PM
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It's times like this where you can't even parody them anymore.
BTW: This comment window is too wide, it goes way under your blogroll.#: Posted by on 03/28 at 04:30 PM -
Jason, I only have the format issue when operating on a laptop that maxes out at 800x600. You might try decreasing your text size in the browser.
#: Posted by on 03/28 at 04:34 PM
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I guess I missed the part where he said that Intelligent Design was not about religion. Is this pastor one of the expert (sic) witnesses for the school bored, just announced?
Thank God our country has a constant influx of foreigners who are not retarded by anti-intellectualistic beliefs, who can do our science for us.#: Posted by on 03/28 at 07:11 PM -
When I first saw that statement by Reverend Idjit, I couldn't believe it was real. Unfortunately, for the rest of us who've figured out by now that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5, it was.
Is there some sort of strange doctrine in fundamentalist churches these days that actually rewards the public perception that you can't count up to ten or something?#: Posted by on 03/28 at 07:13 PM -
Reminds me of a time when a friend and I were playing NTN Trivia at a restaurant in Montgomery, Alabama. When we would play, his name was "God" and mine was "NoGods" because we're both atheist and blasphemy and such is fun fun fun! Anyway...
So, we're playing and winning (especially on the Bible questions - go figure)... and I take the lead, the name "NOGODS" proudly flashing on screen.
From behind us comes a redneck voice saying "Look at that name - with all his learnin' he thinks there's no God."
Apparently it didn't dawn on him that the inverse is that, with his lack of learnin', he does. -
mark:
Thank God our country has a constant influx of foreigners who are not retarded by anti-intellectualistic beliefs, who can do our science for us.
Problem is, knowing how nativistic the wingnuts who are behind these little reenactments of the Scopes Trial usually are, they're liable to deport each and every one of Them Damn Furreigners as soon as they realize that they very well might be the last people in the country who actually understand science. When that happens, expect the invasion of Canada to occur. After all, they might still be able to spell up there.#: Posted by on 03/28 at 07:50 PM - That quotation does say it all, doesn't it? In a nice tasty soundbite, no less!
- Wow, these nuts finally said something intelligent for once, ironic as that may be. It's a start.
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It seems that there is an agenda:
"It took 30 or 40 years to eliminate God in school, it will take probably 30 or 40 years to get him back. You take a little step first, a little bite, then another little bite and another," said Steve Farrell, a nursery keeper, who dreams of the return to prayer in class.
#: Posted by on 03/28 at 08:16 PM -
David Brin has an interesting (17th part) post on the difference between science and anti-science here:
http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2005/03/modernism-part-17-addicted-to.html
All 17 parts are very interesting.
BTW, I see that several people have caught onto this quote, including Atrios, Heinrich Not Hindrocket etc.
And I have also noticed the "strategy" in the last paragraph....scary stuff. - A diabolical attempt to silence ignoramuses!
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Bad Jim: fortunately, since Americans are becoming increasingly secular, fundamentalists don't have 30-40 years. If they can't reverse the trend of deconversion in the next 20 years, they'll be facing so big a segment of the population that they won't achieve anything.
PZ: let's face it, this isn't the first time you encounter people who believe education is bad. There's no need for you to be surprised.#: Posted by on 03/29 at 12:02 AM -
Alon, in better moments, I fance that the vitality we're seeing from the godders is the last-gasp energy of a dying movement.
In my small part of the country (Upstate New York), it seems like I've heard of a half dozen or so churches closing in just the past five years. Catholic churches, mainly, but also others. And I'm seeing a sharp rise in ecumenical services -- where two or more churches (of different faiths) share services or ministers on occasion.
But in darker moments, I wonder if I might be wrong. Or I ask myself just how damaging that last-gasp vitality could still be. Heh, odd metaphor pops to mind: A dying giraffe might still kick you to death.
Regardless, I'm seeing what I consider to be strong negative effects from this recent vitality, whether pseudo or real. Real people are really suffering from it, and I can think of cases where it's at the level of life or death.
If there was an Index of Religion-Derived Misery, it would have risen noticeably in the past ten years.
I'm really afraid it will rise even faster in the next ten. - Argh. fance = fancy.
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Unitarians, who believe in at most one god, are consistently registering an incremental increase in membership. The fellowship in my town, once small enough to circulate in living rooms, is now outgrowing the building they bought thirty years ago. So, yes, the forces of tolerance and secularism are growing, even in America.
Getting back to the topic, who but the "intelligent, educated segment of the culture" would anyone choose as teachers?#: Posted by on 03/29 at 02:05 AM -
Unitarians, who believe in at most one god, are consistently registering an incremental increase in membership. The fellowship in my town, once small enough to circulate in living rooms, is now outgrowing the building they bought thirty years ago. So, yes, the forces of tolerance and secularism are growing, even in America.
Forget Unitarians - nonreligious people increased from 7% of the population in 1990 to 13% in 2000. That's way too much for immigration to be a major factor behind it, and nonreligious people have lower birth rates than religious people everywhere, so this shows a trend of deconversion.
But in darker moments, I wonder if I might be wrong. Or I ask myself just how damaging that last-gasp vitality could still be. Heh, odd metaphor pops to mind: A dying giraffe might still kick you to death.
I'm not saying there's no danger. I'm only saying that it'll either strike fairly soon or dissipate. I think I mentioned once on this blog that I was writing a book in which the religious right takes over the USA and institutes a totalitarian theocracy; obviously I wouldn't say American fundamentalism is a spent force.#: Posted by on 03/29 at 03:49 AM -
I'm not saying there's no danger. I'm only saying that it'll either strike fairly soon or dissipate.
That's my reading too. Non-religious census results are increasing throughout Western countries, and even among those who call themselves religious, actual church-attendance and other factors of active involvement with their religion is plummeting. Far from the resurgent force it's proclaimed to be, Evangelism is a dying, wounded animal. But you know what they say about wounded animals, hence the recent increase in their bloodlust. You don't need to go for the kill. Just let it thrash and struggle until it expires. If you get the chance, shoot it with one or two tranquiliser darts. Alright, metaphor officially overstretched. - in reply to L98Fiero, my reply is an impulsive generalization, but coming from a country where you have to attend mandatory "religious culture" (translation: mohammedean bullshit) lessons in high school has its side effects, you see.
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No one should delude itself. Creationism may not dissipate. The National Science Teachers Association reported that 31 percent of teachers say they feel pressured to include non-scientific alternatives to evolution in science lectures (from the article on Dover). On the other hand, other outcomes are possible. In Argentina, we had biology classes and religion classes. Non Catholics were exempted from religion but stayed as it was forbidden to leave the building. No one ever took the biblical stories literally. Most of "our" priests were post-conciliares or plain marxists. Oh tempora, oh mores!
#: Posted by on 03/29 at 08:04 AM
- Mark Chaves has an interesting study out on church attendance, where the conventional numbers of around 40% on any given Sunday are shown to be quite inflated. His study puts it at around 20%. Measuring secularization in terms of individual beliefs has always been problematic in my mind. The degree to which religion loses its institutional authority in everyday life is a better indicator. Of course operationalizing institutional authority is tricky.
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The good pastor forgot to include "reality-based" in his insult.
#: Posted by on 03/29 at 12:15 PM
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I think the USA despite appearances is seeing the shift to a totally secular society which it must have to survive as an entity of any significance in the coming centuries.
The flailing and wailing of creationists is simply a loud revolt of a group who sees their worldview as less and less pertinent to 'real' life. It doesn't mean religion won't have value, but just that it's value won't be supreme.
Creationists I'm afraid will always be around in one form or another, people tend to be lazy in the ways of science.#: Posted by on 03/29 at 01:57 PM -
Ben wrote:
Evangelism is a dying, wounded animal.
Maybe so, but Pentecostalism is way up, all around the world. Being such an authoritarian chuch means it's pretty united in its dogma, in a way that evangelicals aren't. So we have a strongly young-earth, anti-evolution, anti-gay, branch of Christianity that wants to fight for what it believes in.
I'm not too familiar with the US situation, but I think most of the 'evanglists' that rant about evolution come under what I'd consider charismatic faiths. Even if the evangelical impulse is fading (it's not - Africa, Asia and South America are attracting missions like it was the 19th century), charismatics are going to be a force to be reckoned with for a long time.
I wish I could offer some consolation for this, but my own dealings with Penties haven't been too fruitful. They will hear what they want to hear, their truth is better than ours, and their extremely strong sense of community/persecution keeps them damn sure of themselves.
And US - please stop exporting your faith. It's bad enough you gave us Rev. Wigglesworth 150 years ago. Now I have to hear about how the devil coming for poor little born-agains.#: Posted by on 03/29 at 04:43 PM